alnico vs ceramic

[bremen]

What's the difference, and why?

 

A magnetic field is a magnetic field...is it just that alnico is less powerful so damps the strings less?

[rwillett]

4 minutes ago, bremen said:

What's the difference, and why?

 

A magnetic field is a magnetic field...is it just that alnico is less powerful so damps the strings less?

Good question to which I have zero answers but have wondered about this myself. 

 

If this was expensive hifi cables, the answer would probably be something to do with the way that the electrons move better due to the premium highly directional electric cable.

[bremen]

I do suspect that there's a bit of audiophoolery/confirmation bias involved...

[bremen]

Just seen the AI generated synopsis on Google, and I fear for the future of humanity. It's just a distillation of hearsay and marketing.

 

 

[itu]

Magnetic material is a slightly meaningless thing. People talk about them a lot, but the material is probably used as an euphemism to magnetic field intensity.

 

Field intensity (older: 10 000 Gauss = modern: 1 Tesla) of the Earth is around half Gauss = 50 micro T. Pickups are far more powerful.
 
Magnet types, and their theoretical max fields:
- ceramic, base is iron (Fe), strontium (Sr) is the additive, 0.2 - 0.4 T
- samarium-cobalt, Sm-Co, 0.8 - 1.1 T
- AlNiCo, aluminium-nickel-cobalt, 0.8 - 1.2 T
- neodymium, Nd-Fe-B, 1.1 - 1.5 T

 

Now each material can be, and usually is, weaker than its theoretical maximum. 1 T is awfully lot, and you may find such field in an MRI system, when your body is examined. When a magnetic component is manufactured, the result can be whatever. This should tell you all, that a neodymium can be weaker than a ceramic material. For example the manufacturing process, the material mixture, the size of the particles... everything affects the end result.

 

When a pickup maker buys a set of magnets, the catalogue is big. The choice has to be made from material, size, shape, field intensity...

 

1) AlNiCo is not a single component or material with fixed properties.

2) The coil has also its properties, which depend on wire length, wire diameter, conductivity, physical coil size etc.

3) Combine these, and the result is a pickup of some kind.

4) Strings and instrument adjustments are the next step to the final sound.

Edited December 30, 2024 by itu
some details fixed

[bremen]

 

Pretty much as I see it.

 

But still, it seems to be accepted wisdom that alnico is The Good Stuff and ceramic is for losers. It's even more set in stone than Maple Necks Make A Brighter Tone Than Rosewood.

[JPJ]

All part of the alchemy of ‘tone’ 

[Hellzero]

4 hours ago, bremen said:

It's even more set in stone than Maple Necks Make A Brighter Tone Than Rosewood.

Which is stupid as it's the opposite.  

[Bone Idol]

I think you'd have to have Yoda's ears to hear the difference... 😜

[Doctor J]

Bruh, there are multiple alnico varieties. I have a strat with alnico 3 magnets on the bass side and alnico 4 magnets on the treble side. It's... like... how can we apply a judicious tonal examinanationationing without knowing which alnico we're talking about? These things are serious business.

 

Alternatively, from the Yamaha BB2024 blurb... "the neck pickup uses an Alnico V magnet for warm, rich sounds while the bridge pickup features a ceramic magnet for clarity and definition."

 

EMG tend to use ceramic magnets, old humbuckers and strats tend to use anico 5, it's all good.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Doctor J

[neepheid]

Just another thing for people to have pointless arguments (sorry, "discussions") about as far as I'm concerned.

[bigthumb]

8 hours ago, neepheid said:

Just another thing for people to have pointless arguments (sorry, "discussions") about as far as I'm concerned.

 

No it isn't. 😜

 

However, the alnico pups in my non reverse Thunderbirds do sound brighter than the ceramic ones in my standard Tbird but there's probably other factors as well which make for a different tone. I was thinking about changing the pickups but opted for the cheeper option of turning the treble up on the amp! Seems to have done the trick. 

[Dan Dare]

Alnico was originally used for pickups because magnets made from it it could hold a stronger magnetic charge than those of the same size made from iron. The earliest guitar pickups, such the Charlie Christian pickup, used iron magnets. Because iron on its own can’t hold a very strong magnetic charge, a large magnet was needed and the original Charlie Christian pickup weighed getting on for two pounds as a result. OK if you're playing seated in a jazz band with the instrument in your lap, but a bit of a lump to have hanging round your neck all night if you're standing, especially if your instrument has two or even three pickups.

 

Alnico was used for reasons of cost and practicality during the golden period of electric instruments, which has contributed to the aura that surrounds it. Pretty well all the classic pickups - Fender single coils, Gibson P90s and humbuckers, Gretsch Filter-Trons, etc - were made with alnico magnets. There are several different grades of alnico, some stronger than others. They are claimed to have different tonal qualities. Alnico 5 is said to produce a hotter and more piercing pickup than alnico 2, for example. People try to replicate the classics exactly - same construction, materials, etc - in the hope of achieving the same sound.

 

Ceramic magnets came out in the 1960s. They can hold a stronger charge than alnicos of the same size and weight, so are preferred for high output pickups, metal, etc. They're also cheaper than alnico, so tend to be used in budget instruments. No doubt that also contributes to the snobbery about alnicos.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Dan Dare

[itu]

18 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

There are several different grades of alnico, some stronger than others. They are claimed to have different tonal qualities.

 

Ceramic magnets came out in the 1960s. They can hold a stronger charge than alnicos of the same size and weight, so are preferred for high output pickups, metal, etc.

As I wrote earlier, if the size of the magnets, and magnetic field intensities are similar, it does not matter, which material you use. Are you actually referring to the field intensity when you talk about tonal quantities? Different field intensity  sure affects tone.

 

I have not found information that supports the latter, but I would love to hear more about that.

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, itu said:

As I wrote earlier, if the size of the magnets, and magnetic field intensities are similar, it does not matter, which material you use. Are you actually referring to the field intensity when you talk about tonal quantities? Different field intensity  sure affects tone.

 

I have not found information that supports the latter, but I would love to hear more about that.

 

Note that I wrote they are claimed to have different tonal qualities. I've never heard any appreciable difference between speakers or pickups with different magnet materials. Others may see things differently

Edited December 31, 2024 by Dan Dare