Question to fretless players/owners

[1976fenderhead]

Hi there, considering buying a fretless bass, just wondering whether it takes some time to adapt to play in tune or if it's quite easy or unnoticeable when the fingers aren't in the exact position? I never played one at all, but I've been playing bass for 17 years so let me know what you think. I might have only a couple of weeks between buying it and having to use it in a gig! Cheers!

[Stylon Pilson]

It does take a bit of practise to learn to play in tune. Two weeks probably won't be enough, but you might as well give it a try.

If you are good at noticing when your bass is out of tune, then you'll be good at noticing when your fretless playing is out of tune.

S.P.

[wateroftyne]

I think some people take to it fairly easily, while others struggle for a while.

I was quite lucky - gigged mine the day I got it and haven't looked back.

But then... I'm not trying to be Jaco, and I don't play up the dusty end too much. I suspect my weaknesses would shine if that were the case..!

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='504498' date='Jun 3 2009, 10:27 AM']I think some people take to it fairly easily, while others struggle for a while.

I was quite lucky - gigged mine the day I got it and haven't looked back.

But then... I'm not trying to be Jaco, and I don't play up the dusty end too much. I suspect my weaknesses would shine if that were the case..![/quote]
Same here. I've had my VMJ fretless for a couple of weeks now, and I feel pretty comfortable on it. My intonation's by no means perfect, but it's generally "good enough", especially lower down the board. There's a lot of wiggle-room down where the frets are well-spaced, so you can be... ahem... "good enough for jazz" without too much trouble. Actually, "good enough for metal" might be more accurate. Depending on what the rest of the band's doing, it might not be that noticeable if you're a bit off.

All that's said with a lined board, of course. It might be a different story for me without. Having said that, I used to play the violin pretty well, and that's an unlined fretless with a 12.8" scale length. It just takes a lot of practice, and the ability to make tiny adjustments very quickly on the hoof.

[The Bass Doc]

It's a good idea to make your choice of fretless bass as close as possible to the fretted one you use so that the only difference is.....you guessed it!

I would advocate an unlined board with the occasional side dots - when I tried a lined version I was drawn to what looked like a fret and was inclined to play in behind it. Just my experience mind - we're all different.

[BottomEndian]

Oh, and fretless opens up a world outside equal temperament! As a hangover from my violin days and years of choral singing, if I'm playing a note that leads up to another by a semitone (e.g. major scale 3-4 or 7-octave), I'll deliberately play the leading note a touch sharp. It somehow sweetens the cadence.

[1976fenderhead]

Cool, thanks for the replies. It will actually be an electro-acoustic so it will be very different from the one I'm playing now, which is a Fender Jazz American Deluxe with a 34" scale. The fretless is likely to have a 32" scale so it seems it will definitely require some care to play it in the first few weeks (arms position will also be very different around it, etc). Can't wait to try an discover those little things like BottomEndian described. What else do you particularly like about playing a fretless?

[hubrad]

I've only ever really played fretless; usually have a fretted bass around but I just felt instantly at home without frets or lines.
Go for it - play nothing else for two weeks, and you'll either start to settle (so play the gig - there's nowt like it for tightening up your playing) or not (if you're really uncomfortable you probably don't want to gig it)

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='504515' date='Jun 3 2009, 10:42 AM']It's a good idea to make your choice of fretless bass as close as possible to the fretted one you use so that the only difference is.....you guessed it![/quote]
+1. I'm in the unenviable situation of frequently swapping between my Ibanez (35" scale, 5-string, wide flat neck) and my Squier fretless (34" scale, 4-string, narrow neck). It can get quite frustrating when I overreach on the fretless after an hour or two on the Ibanez.

And when I go for that imaginary B-string.

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='504515' date='Jun 3 2009, 10:42 AM']I would advocate an unlined board with the occasional side dots - when I tried a lined version I was drawn to what looked like a fret and was inclined to play in behind it. Just my experience mind - we're all different.[/quote]
Gary Willis recommends setting up the intonation so you're playing behind the line as you would with frets: see [url="http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation3.html"]his site on bass setup[/url]. It means you have less cognitive dissonance when you swap between fretted and fretless. Just play exactly as you would with frets.

It does generally mean, however, that you'll have to finger roughly [i]on[/i] the lines at the low end, and noticeably [i]behind[/i] the lines as you drift further up, unless the bass has been specifically lined for the technique of playing behind the lines.

As ever, YMMV.

[size=1]Edited to complete a sentence I left dangling. [/size]

Edited June 3, 2009 by BottomEndian

[fretmeister]

I love mine - plain board status.

Took a while to get used to, but last year I took the plunge and gigged it.

Did a couple of jazz tunes where I could sit down and concentrate - that put me at ease.

Then I played Hysteria on it and it sounded AMAZING. It is now my main bass.

[beardybass]

Alreet,

Fretless eh? Good move, they are the mutts knees, or the bees nuts, or summink. I reckon one good thing you should remember is, if you buy an unlined fretless, the the side dots, will almost certainly be at the fret line, rather than in the middle like they are on a fretted bass. It's a small detail, but it can really confuse you if you're not careful!lol

If you've been playing for 17 years, I can't see you having too much trouble with it like, the thing is muscle memory is more important on fretless (in my humble opinion of course!) Just experiment and see how you go. One thing I used to do when I first started playing fretless, was practice in the dark. That way, you really have to rely on your ears to get you around. Try it, it's fun, you may go bald though, I think that's why it's happening to me.

[51m0n]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='504512' date='Jun 3 2009, 10:40 AM']Same here. I've had my VMJ fretless for a couple of weeks now, and I feel pretty comfortable on it. My intonation's by no means perfect, but it's generally "good enough", especially lower down the board. There's a lot of wiggle-room down where the frets are well-spaced, so you can be... ahem... "good enough for jazz" without too much trouble. Actually, "good enough for metal" might be more accurate. Depending on what the rest of the band's doing, it might not be that noticeable if you're a bit off.

All that's said with a lined board, of course. It might be a different story for me without. Having said that, I used to play the violin pretty well, and that's an unlined fretless with a 12.8" scale length. It just takes a lot of practice, and the ability to make tiny adjustments very quickly on the hoof.[/quote]


[quote name='BottomEndian' post='504542' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:13 AM']+1. I'm in the unenviable situation of frequently swapping between my Ibanez (35" scale, 5-string, wide flat neck) and my Squier fretless (34" scale, 4-string, narrow neck). It can get quite frustrating when I overreach on the fretless after an hour or two on the Ibanez.

And when I go for that imaginary B-string.


Gary Willis recommends setting up the intonation so you're playing behind the line as you would with frets: see [url="http://garywillis.com/pages/bass/bassmanual/intonation3.html"]his site on bass setup[/url]. It means you have less cognitive dissonance when you swap between fretted and fretless. Just play exactly as you would with frets.

It does generally mean, however, that you'll have to finger roughly [i]on[/i] the lines at the low end, and noticeably [i]behind[/i] the lines as you drift further up, unless the bass has been specifically lined for the technique of playing behind the lines.

As ever, YMMV.

[size=1]Edited to complete a sentence I left dangling. [/size][/quote]


+1 to all the above, eally mirrors my experience with my VMJ and Roscoe.

Still I recorded with the VMJ a week after getting it with no problems, they are pretty forgiving down low, the band certainly seemed to like it anyways!

[Bilbo]

The playing of the thing is important and the points raised are valid but. for me, after playing fretless almost entirely for 23 years (on the full range of the neck - no dusty bits here!!), I find that the most important things to ensure good intonation are the sound you have at any given time and your ability to hear and listen to that sound on stage. Your muscle memory is important but your EARS are what tell you when you are or are not in tune. If you can't hear yourself, you may be in big trouble, even if you don't know it.

I would practice intially in a quiet space so you can get used to developing reference points for your tuning (open strings, octaves and harmonics) and can relate your intontation to other sources such as other players or recordings. As you get more confident in your intonation, you can get out there and play - its may takes hours, days or weeks; that is a matter for you. Your commitment to effective intonation will, however, remain your priority forever as, without attention, it can easily slip, even after decades.

[51m0n]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='504579' date='Jun 3 2009, 12:10 PM']The playing of the thing is important and the points raised are valid but. for me, after playing fretless almost entirely for 23 years (on the full range of the neck - no dusty bits here!!), I find that the most important things to ensure good intonation are the sound you have at any given time and your ability to hear and listen to that sound on stage. Your muscle memory is important but your EARS are what tell you when you are or are not in tune. If you can't hear yourself, you may be in big trouble, even if you don't know it.

I would practice intially in a quiet space so you can get used to developing reference points for your tuning (open strings, octaves and harmonics) and can relate your intontation to other sources such as other players or recordings. As you get more confident in your intonation, you can get out there and play - its may takes hours, days or weeks; that is a matter for you. Your commitment to effective intonation will, however, remain your priority forever as, without attention, it can easily slip, even after decades.[/quote]

Totally agree Bilbo, the only reason I was at all comfy in the studio was tha I had headphones and a dedicated mix, with really really loud bass in it , that and being in an overdub/no pressure situation.....

[1976fenderhead]

Thanks guys, all great tips. So do some of you use a fretless as main bass, i. e., playing standing up in a loud gig, fast heavy-ish tracks, moving around on stage etc or mainly jazz, ballads, slower quieter stuff?

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='1976fenderhead' post='504615' date='Jun 3 2009, 12:51 PM']Thanks guys, all great tips. So do some of you use a fretless as main bass, i. e., playing standing up in a loud gig, fast heavy-ish tracks, moving around on stage etc or mainly jazz, ballads, slower quieter stuff?[/quote]

When I played fretless full-time I used it in a baggy/indie band, then in a large funk band, so there was often quite tricky parts to play and/or silly dancing to do.

Once you're in the habit of playing fretless you don't think about it any more. If you play it exclusively then you'll find bass guitars will start to feel awkward because of the lumpy frets getting in the way, etc.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='504628' date='Jun 3 2009, 01:05 PM']...If you play it exclusively then you'll find bass guitars will start to feel awkward because of the lumpy frets getting in the way, etc.[/quote]
Yeah, I actually find my fretless easier to play, at least in terms of the physical action of the left hand. My Ibanez is pretty fussy about where you put your fingers. I guess it's something to do with the profile of the frets or something. Unless you're [b][i]directly[/i][/b] behind the fret (and I would say there's less than 1 mm of leeway), it can buzz like a wasp in a copper tube. On a fretless, wherever you put your finger, it'll sound a note. If you're a little bit out of tune, just wiggle it into tune!

[JanSpeeltBas]

Playing fretless in a loud band is quite hard to do - your ears will have difficulty hearing your intonation. I've experienced this myself and heard it from many other bassist too. It's like going to the loo at a concert and then hearing the band sound much softer - often you'll notice things that didn't show up in full volume, most often not so good intonation of the vocalists. They ofcourse suffer from the same intonation troubles: hearing gets less detailed at high volumes. Maybe in-ear monitoring would help?
I would really advise to use similar fretless & fretted instruments if you gonna use them both. Having a different style of neck (nr.of frets) and body shape and scale length is going to make things a lot harder!
But once you've got there's nothing like it: fretless is so much more expressive. When I pick up a fretted bass nowadays I find the frets really annoying...

[Bilbo]

I have played all sorts of music on a fretless, not just jazz/ballads/quiet stuff and there is next to nothing you can't do on it (it will only go MWAHHHHHHH if you want it to!). THe only thing I think that the fretted bass excells in is slapping and, possibly, tapping (although the latter of these still sounds horrible to me, fretted or fretless).

Re: Sound in the toilet - If anything moves in the room – the sound source, the listener or any reflecting surface – then the Doppler effect comes into play. The Doppler effect is best demonstrated by the siren of a passing fire engine, which appears to drop in pitch as it goes past. Sound can’t travel faster than its natural velocity in any given medium (in this case, air), so if the sound source moves, then velocity of the source converts to a rising in pitch for an approaching source, a lowering of pitch for a source that is moving away. In most contexts where acoustics are important, neither the source nor listener will be moving significantly, nor will the reflecting surfaces. If, however, you move several tens of metres away and listen to the original sound through three brick walls, each covered in tiles, plaster, wallpaper etc stuff that is in tune 'onstage' will appear not to be.

[hubrad]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='504675' date='Jun 3 2009, 01:53 PM']I have played all sorts of music on a fretless, not just jazz/ballads/quiet stuff and there is next to nothing you can't do on it (it will only go MWAHHHHHHH if you want it to!). THe only thing I think that the fretted bass excells in is slapping and, possibly, tapping (although the latter of these still sounds horrible to me, fretted or fretless).[/quote]
+1 to all of that! I've played everything from folky and jazzy vibe to heavy rock.
Choice of bass helps here

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=44673"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=44673[/url] was my one bass for yonks!

Ebony board definitely more attack available.. you can always soften the sound if you want. Also generally more attack with steel roundwounds than flatties, but you'll need the board skimming every few years when you dig holes in the wood.

I once read a Steve Bailey interview in which he described punters being surprised he was actually playing a fretless all gig. A couple of years later I got the same comments - a very good feeling! It doesn't have to be slidy slidy all the time!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='hubrad' post='504693' date='Jun 3 2009, 02:09 PM']+1 to all of that! I've played everything from folky and jazzy vibe to heavy rock.
Choice of bass helps here[/quote]

Norwood used a Thumb fretless on most of the heavier stuff on Reality Of My Surroundings, check out Sunless Saturday or Fight The Youth. I think Pressure might be fretless too.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='504675' date='Jun 3 2009, 01:53 PM']Re: Sound in the toilet - If anything moves in the room – the sound source, the listener or any reflecting surface – then the Doppler effect comes into play. The Doppler effect is best demonstrated by the siren of a passing fire engine, which appears to drop in pitch as it goes past. Sound can’t travel faster than its natural velocity in any given medium (in this case, air), so if the sound source moves, then velocity of the source converts to a rising in pitch for an approaching source, a lowering of pitch for a source that is moving away. In most contexts where acoustics are important, neither the source nor listener will be moving significantly, nor will the reflecting surfaces. If, however, you move several tens of metres away and listen to the original sound through three brick walls, each covered in tiles, plaster, wallpaper etc stuff that is in tune 'onstage' will appear not to be.[/quote]
I'm confused as to how the Doppler effect comes into play here. I'm aware of the phenomenon of perceived tuning issues when you muffle the sound source, but I've always guessed it was down to the human ear's (and brain's) limited ability to receive and process pitch information at high sound pressure level. Once you get into the toilets and the SPL drops, you can hear tuning problems more easily.

Just to clarify, I have no basis for this assumption. I don't know a great deal about the ear/brain at high SPL. It's just a guess.

There's still nothing moving significantly when you're standing in the toilet, and any Doppler effect you ever experience should affect all frequencies in the spectrum to a proportionally equal extent. The singer surely won't suddenly appear to be out of tune due to the Doppler effect. If everyone on stage is in tune with each other, they'll still sound in tune with each other when you experience a Doppler shift. (And if they're out of tune, they should sound equally out of tune regardless of the Doppler effect.)

Feel free to correct me. I may be a physics graduate, but I concentrated on quantum mechanics and general relativity, so my knowledge of acoustics and wave motion is a little shaky!

[size=1]Edited for idiotic phrasing[/size]

Edited June 3, 2009 by BottomEndian

[hubrad]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='504719' date='Jun 3 2009, 02:45 PM']I'm confused as to how the Doppler effect comes into play here. I'm aware of the phenomenon of perceived tuning issues when you muffle the sound source, but I've always guessed it was down to the human ear's (and brain's) limited ability to receive and process pitch information at high sound pressure level. Once you get into the toilets and the SPL drops, you can hear tuning problems more easily.

Just to clarify, I have no basis for this assumption. I don't know a great deal about the ear/brain at high SPL. It's just a guess.

There's still nothing moving significantly when you're standing in the toilet, and any Doppler effect you ever experience should affect all frequencies in the spectrum to a proportionally equal extent. The singer surely won't suddenly appear to be out of tune due to the Doppler effect. If everyone on stage is in tune with each other, they'll still sound in tune with each other when you experience a Doppler shift. (And if they're out of tune, they should sound equally out of tune regardless of the Doppler effect.)

Feel free to correct me. I may be a physics graduate, but I concentrated on quantum mechanics and general relativity, so my knowledge of acoustics and wave motion is a little shaky!

[size=1]Edited for idiotic phrasing[/size][/quote]

So if the whole band, including a fretless bass player, runs towards you at speed carrying the backline and drummer on a big trolley.. what then?[attachment=26479:POW_.jpg]

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='hubrad' post='504734' date='Jun 3 2009, 03:04 PM']So if the whole band, including a fretless bass player, runs towards you at speed carrying the backline and drummer on a big trolley.. what then?[attachment=26479:POW_.jpg][/quote]


Dunno, but if they do it at 1,521 miles per hour, they'll sound an octave higher. I think that's how they record Alvin & The Chipmunks...

[xilddx]

Agree you can play all styles on a fretless. I used to play FL in a VERY heavy band with complex key and time changes. Sounded awesome.