Lighter weight amp or powered speakers

[-asdfgh2-]

My PA only gets used if there's nothing in the venue and is one of the Thoman 800W RMS amps into two Samson Auro D12s. It's nothing fancy or expensive but does the job and sounds ok. But that amp... It's heavier even than my lead sled bass amps. And into the Samsons it's only developing at most 500W.

 

The resale value on the amp is probably minimal and it's not going to be a lot on the speakers either 

 

Do I:

 

1. Suck it up as it's occasional use only.

2. Replace the amp with something lighter (probably used - occasional use only).

3. Replace all of it with powered speakers - for example Auro TX or TS in 12 inch. TS costs more but has better low end but weighs more. The TX have a similar frequency spectrum to the Auro, which are fine.

3a. Sell the D12s?

3b. Keep the D12s, sell the larger Tech 1x15 that is for bass? The D12s have leaner bass, but are no worse than something like a TC BC208, but they are quite ugly.

3c. Sell my powered monitors which are worth even less but sound less good than the D12, but then I'm looking at a second amp and the weight of the rack with two amps (or a single quad amp) rises and I might gain nothing in terms of ease of load in or out.

 

Hmmm...

[David Morison]

If elderly, or managing any health condition, please ignore the following.

 

1: Place amp beside your bed.

2: Every morning when you get up, stub your toe on said amp and curse yourself for being daft enough to take advice from strangers on the internet.

3: Wait, that's not supposed to happen - place the amp a bit further from your bed than that.

4: Every morning, when you get up, lift the amp to chest height. Once.

5: Carry on with the rest of your day.

6: Once step 4 becomes habitual, add another rep.

7: Once step 6 becomes habitual, add another rep.

8: Once step 7 becomes habitual, add another rep.

9: Once step - hang on, you see where this is going, right?

...

....

.....

X: Once your significant other notices the effect on your physique enough that you're getting more nookie, come back here and laugh at the idea of getting rid of the piece of fitness equipment that occasionally doubles as an amp 😜

 

If you still want to reduce weight, the Yamaha DBR series are often mentioned as the minimum many pro sound people would recommend for sound quality - they're a little more expensive than the Alto TS but I'd be confident they'd sound better - that being said I've never used an Alto (and a DBR only extremely briefly) so take that with a grain of salt.

[-asdfgh2-]

45 minutes ago, David Morison said:

If elderly, or managing any health condition, please ignore the following.

 

I have back issues after a nasty fall on ice when trying to rescue a mouse...

 

The cheap T-amp E-800 is 28 lbs, but it feels so much heavier in the rack sleeve... I could move it to a rack bag and the lightweight contents of that to the sleeve made out of MDF or possibly lead.

 

45 minutes ago, David Morison said:

 

1: Place amp beside your bed.

2: Every morning when you get up, stub your toe on said amp and curse yourself for being daft enough to take advice from strangers on the internet.

3: Wait, that's not supposed to happen - place the amp a bit further from your bed than that.

4: Every morning, when you get up, lift the amp to chest height. Once.

5: Carry on with the rest of your day.

6: Once step 4 becomes habitual, add another rep.

7: Once step 6 becomes habitual, add another rep.

8: Once step 7 becomes habitual, add another rep.

9: Once step - hang on, you see where this is going, right?

...

....

.....

X: Once your significant other notices the effect on your physique enough that you're getting more nookie, come back here and laugh at the idea of getting rid of the piece of fitness equipment that occasionally doubles as an amp 😜

 

If you still want to reduce weight, the Yamaha DBR series are often mentioned as the minimum many pro sound people would recommend for sound quality - they're a little more expensive than the Alto TS but I'd be confident they'd sound better - that being said I've never used an Alto (and a DBR only extremely briefly) so take that with a grain of salt.

One of the problems with testing PA amps and speakers is that physical shops don't want you to dime a pair of speakers and play a few tracks, then rinse and repeat for each of half-a-dozen speakers. Buying, hiring a hall, listening, then returning and buying new speakers is costly and slow unless you can afford to buy multiple sets of speakers at once and enough time to wait for all those couriers to pick up the spares.

 

It's either that try to match sound quality at a gig where they are using Alto or Yamaha or whatever to the gear being used in a completely uncontrolled way.

Edited January 11 by -asdfgh2-

[-asdfgh2-]

So, in its rack sleeve, the T-amp E-800 clocks in at 41lbs on the bathroom scales, but a Warwick Profet in a rack bag, 29lbs, which is reasonable.

 

The PA is supposed to be 28lbs, which means the sleeve (2U) must be 13 lbs! I've never weighed it empty. 

 

The Warwick is 22 lbs, so the bag must be 7lbs, although I'd be happy to have one without all the extra pockets.

 

If I just swapped the containment, it would be roughly 35lbs source. But instead I might just see what outboard gear I want to put in 2U that's currently in a rack bag. I should probably get one that fits my Soundcraft remote mixer, though.

 

Then I'll see if weights dictate change (probably, if not so urgently).

[SimonK]

I have similar with a QSC poweramp and some Thomann speakers that I bought fifteen years ago also for occassional and backup use. After sitting around for many years I have mounted the poweramp in a rack and use it for practice now driving a Trace Elliot (one half) and a Marshall (other half), so use it for guitar and bass at bedroom levels (the rack case has a door that hides some of the fan noise). The speakers have been in the loft since I last used them about five years ago, but with a resale value of nil I'm just keeping them.

[-asdfgh2-]

I looked up the spec of the Behringer NX3000 as that's cheap enough for occasional use and about the same per channel into 8 ohms. Or maybe not, according to some who have tested it.

[Phil Starr]

What do you use your PA for? Is it just or mainly vocals or are you putting more through it. Specifically kick drum, bass and keys which is more demanding? Also how loud is your band? That makes a huge difference as to your options.

 

For anyone buying new nowadays I'd say the practical solution is pretty much always active speakers, quick and simple to set up and with DSP almost impossible to destroy in normal use, even the cheap stuff is reliable. With built in class D amps they can be pretty light too. Unless you really cut corners they are probably going to sound better than your Samsons, which you are happy with anyway.

 

I've got the Behringer iNuke whic I think is the NX3000 in a really ugly case, same electronics. From memory it is 250W a side into 8 ohms 350W a side into 4ohms and 700W+ bridged. The same amp as is in the Bugera Veyron I suspect. Anyway it's a perfectly decent amp and not far off my Peavey IPR1600 amps

[-asdfgh2-]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

What do you use your PA for? Is it just or mainly vocals or are you putting more through it. Specifically kick drum, bass and keys which is more demanding?

 

Vocals, acoustic instruments, synths, etc.

 

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Also how loud is your band?

 

It has varied between bands over time, so no easy answer here. From relatively quiet to offering ear plugs to the audience.

 

For this PA, nothing has been through it in anger as I got it just before COVID and haven't had to use it so fast. Picking up the power amp again, I'm sort of glad :).

 

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

 

For anyone buying new nowadays I'd say the practical solution is pretty much always active speakers.

 

If I was buying now, I would. My monitors are powered. They were the previous PA of disappointing loudness which made me shy away from active speakers in 2019. There didn't see anything as competitively priced as what I got then for occasional use, but I injured my back in the interim so anything above about 30lbs is a bit of a drag. None of the other components I have (speakers, cabs, amps, etc.) is above 30lbs.

 

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Unless you really cut corners they are probably going to sound better than your Samsons, which you are happy with anyway.

 

Granted, I haven't gigged in anger with the Samsons but I did test in a hall, and they sound fine to the loudness I'd likely need, but I'd get pennies for them on resale, I expect. That would force me towards something like the Alto TX at best to replace. I could probably sell other stuff I don't use much, though, which might make the Alto TS viable. 

 

I could get rid of 1x15 bass cabs and use one or two Samsons and probably get acceptable loudness which makes the active speakers more viable. They are equivalent at the low end to a TC BC208 based on specs, but with a piezo and about 1dB more sensitivity. It would be s bit quieter than currently, but should do the job. But it would look really ugly. I'd rather go slightly lighter and smaller on the bass can front but something used and more conventional looking.

 

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I've got the Behringer iNuke whic I think is the NX3000 in a really ugly case, same electronics.

 

This appears to be the case.

 

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

From memory it is 250W a side into 8 ohms 350W a side into 4ohms and 700W+ bridged.

 

For the NX3000, Behringer quotes 440W RMS per side at 8 ohms, but testing suggests more like 250W.

 

So what I did tonight was pull the outboard gear out of the rack bag they were in and put them in the 2U rack sleeve, ditching the EQ and compressor contained in my newer mixer. The outboard gear now weighs 20lbs, most of that being the sleeve. The amp should be 34lbs in the bag. It's closer.

 

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

 

[Phil Starr]

Hi, from what you are saying you want a pretty competent PA with nothing weighing more than 30lb/13.6kg and the budget is limited. That's a fairly difficult thing to do Your only advantage is that you don't need it immediately so you can take your time and wait for the right bargains to come along.

 

I've run my Behringer amp with a couple of passive Yamaha speakers and it was perfectly competent. I don't know of your Sampsons but there are loads of cheap and good used passive speakers out there so swapping your amp might be the best idea the Behringer might be a good choice. There are loads of other cheap class D PA amps out there too so you may not just be limited to the NX3000.The Thomann amp is not completely undesirable so you might get most of the cost of a used NX3000 back anyway. It might be worth seeing if you can sell it with the Samsons too as a complete PA. People buying their first PA quite like a package if it has leads and stands thrown in

 

Do you want advice on lightening the load. Getting a competent PA speaker at under 30lbs is pretty difficult at any price. The old passive ones tended to have wooden cabs, often heavy Chipboard or MDF so that is difficult and for a 12" system to be loud and have good power handling usually means a fairly hefty magnet again making 30lbs a difficult target. They exist but usually at a price. The other approach to problems lifting is to use a sub or two. they are heavy but stay on the floor and smaller lighter tops become possible.

 

Long term it might be worth looking into a digital mixing desk, you can then ditch the outboard gear.

 

Basically though I wouldn't rush into swapping things around until you have a clear plan of what you are trying to achieve.

Edited January 14 by Phil Starr

[-asdfgh2-]

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Hi, from what you are saying you want a pretty competent PA with nothing weighing more than 30lb/13.6kg and the budget is limited. That's a fairly difficult thing to do Your only advantage is that you don't need it immediately so you can take your time and wait for the right bargains to come along.

 

Indeed. I can wait if necessary. Having decanted the PA amp into a rack bag, that's also somewhat easier.

 

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I've run my Behringer amp with a couple of passive Yamaha speakers and it was perfectly competent. I don't know of your Sampsons

 

I expect the Yamahas will work better cranked, but possibly in the same ballpark.

 

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

but there are loads of cheap and good used passive speakers out there so swapping your amp might be the best idea the Behringer might be a good choice.

 

Whilst the NX3000 is pretty good in terms of price and weight, assessments of the true RMS output make me a little wary. 360W RMS (which the speakers should be able to handle in most scenarios) should give me reasonable headroom much of the time for the use case - any larger or well provisioned venue is likely to have its own PA, even if no monitors. But 250W which the NX3000 seems to actually output into 8 Ohms would make me concerned. I certainly don't want to push into clipping and kill the HF.

 

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

The Thomann amp is not completely undesirable so you might get most of the cost of a used NX3000 back anyway.

It seems to be popular, but with a new retail cost of £150, I don't imagine I'd get more than £50 for it.

 

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

It might be worth seeing if you can sell it with the Samsons too as a complete PA. People buying their first PA quite like a package if it has leads and stands thrown in

 

I have all the bits, although I'm keeping the mixer!

 

Actually, it would make a pretty decent set up for a rehearsal space where weight isn't a concern, so maybe there is merit in this. I seem to do very badly selling on eBay, though!

 

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

For a 12" system to be loud and have good power handling usually means a fairly hefty magnet again making 30lbs a difficult target. They exist but usually at a price.

 

The Samsons are 29lbs. They aren't fancy and begin to get a bit shrill when driven hard, but they aren't terrible. They certainly sound no worse than that old gear. They aren't going to win any prizes, but for occasional use they are fine. In theory I could dry hire, but I've done that in the past and it tends to be a bit of a pain and not cheap enough to make up for the inconvenience.

 

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

The other approach to problems lifting is to use a sub or two. they are heavy but stay on the floor and smaller lighter tops become possible.

 

Heavy subs still need to be got in an out of the car/trailer, possibly up and down steps into venues. That's the real point of pain. That having been said, there is something to be said for a speaker that is not powered and is a little lighter when it comes to putting them on poles. In a previous band around 2010, Mackies were in use, probably 12 inch and 200W but they may not have been class D and they were not fun to get onto the poles. Someone should invent speaker poles that are like giant car jacks.

 

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Long term it might be worth looking into a digital mixing desk, you can then ditch the outboard gear.

 

I have a digital mixing board already. The outboard gear is an active DI unit which may not be totally worthwhile (I have other individual DI boxes) and a feedback eliminator and parametric EQ which somewhat overlaps with the mixer's capability so might not be entirely necessary but it is pretty easy to use in a fire and forget mode.

 

The DI unit is because it was a pain to  lay out and gather back all those individual boxes every time. Every other gig one seemed to get lost. But the mixer has a couple of high impedance inputs and can even apply speaker simulation.

 

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Basically though I wouldn't rush into swapping things around until you have a clear plan of what you are trying to achieve.

 

Indeed. I'm asking here basically to get an idea of options as they arise.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[tauzero]

On 13/01/2025 at 22:13, -asdfgh2- said:

Vocals, acoustic instruments, synths, etc.

 

That's what I use our PA for. Active speakers, nothing weighs above 10kg. Except the speaker stands, must get some lighter ones.

[-asdfgh2-]

20 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

That's what I use our PA for. Active speakers, nothing weighs above 10kg. Except the speaker stands, must get some lighter ones.

What do you have?

[tauzero]

1 hour ago, -asdfgh2- said:

What do you have?

 

Alto TS408s for FOH, Alto TS308s for monitors.

[lemmywinks]

We're using Alto TS210 with a TS15S sub, sounds great and the tops can be loaded in with on in each hand. If you aren't running a sub at the moment and the Alto TS412 performs as good or better than your current cabs it sounds like a no brainer, shave some more weight and bulk off with a digital desk if you like.

[-asdfgh2-]

12 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

We're using Alto TS210 with a TS15S sub, sounds great and the tops can be loaded in with on in each hand. If you aren't running a sub at the moment and the Alto TS412 performs as good or better than your current cabs it sounds like a no brainer, shave some more weight and bulk off with a digital desk if you like.

 

Alto TS412 would be top of my list.

 

I have a Soundcraft Ui16. I also have a Zoom R16 that has one dead and one noisy preamp, but it provides an option for linking a laptop to the Ui16 and using real sliders rather than as an audio interface. Or it did on my old laptop - I'll have to see if I can work out how I did it. The Ui16 can live on stage.

[lemmywinks]

52 minutes ago, -asdfgh2- said:

 

Alto TS412 would be top of my list.

 

I have a Soundcraft Ui16. I also have a Zoom R16 that has one dead and one noisy preamp, but it provides an option for linking a laptop to the Ui16 and using real sliders rather than as an audio interface. Or it did on my old laptop - I'll have to see if I can work out how I did it. The Ui16 can live on stage.

 

 

I can still remember carting around our dual Peavey CS1800 amps (later a pair of QSC amps I forget the name of) with an older Peavey monitor amp in our rack, HiSys4 tops and a pair of massive subs. That's five items that were two man lifts, now we have that number down to zero.

 

We have it so good in terms of budget kit now.

[Matt P]

i'm using a pair of the iNuke 3000 amps for our PA, seems to be a similar setup the the OP, i've not found them lacking so far using a pair of old Mach 15's for mains and some peavey foldback speakers (one amp for mains, one for foldback)

 

mine are in a 4U shallow case (Gator i think) and the 2 amps in the case are lighter than the old 2U power amp we had before.

 

that being said we're moving to powered speakers (RCF 310's) and probably a small sub, the old speakers are just too heavy for lifting into the stands (and we had a situation before Christmas where a gig was booked but the speakers were locked in a house we had no access to so another pair of speakers was required art short notice and these were available locally at a good price)

 

Matt

[Al Krow]

42 minutes ago, Matt P said:

i'm using a pair of the iNuke 3000 amps for our PA, seems to be a similar setup the the OP, i've not found them lacking so far using a pair of old Mach 15's for mains and some peavey foldback speakers (one amp for mains, one for foldback)

 

mine are in a 4U shallow case (Gator i think) and the 2 amps in the case are lighter than the old 2U power amp we had before.

 

that being said we're moving to powered speakers (RCF 310's) and probably a small sub, the old speakers are just too heavy for lifting into the stands (and we had a situation before Christmas where a gig was booked but the speakers were locked in a house we had no access to so another pair of speakers was required art short notice and these were available locally at a good price)

 

Matt

 

There's a lot of love for the RCF 310s plus sub, combo! Should work very well depending on your band line up? Another alternative would be two decent 12" tops e.g. RCF 912As.

[Matt P]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

There's a lot of love for the RCF 310s plus sub, combo! Should work very well depending on your band line up? Another alternative would be two decent 12" tops e.g. RCF 912As.

 

we're just a pub 3 piece band doing the usual covers most of the time, we do have an alter ego as a folky 3 piece acoustic band though, when we're playing pubs its vocals only through the PA, when it's acoustic then it's vocals, acoustic guitars, EUB, and a bit of cajon in the PA.

 

I doubt we'll ever need a sub, I'll probably sell the amps, the 15's and the foldback monitors and then buy another pair of the 310's to use as foldback monitors. the desk we've got is way too big as well so that will get swapped out for something smaller as well.

[Al Krow]

29 minutes ago, Matt P said:

 

we're just a pub 3 piece band doing the usual covers most of the time, we do have an alter ego as a folky 3 piece acoustic band though, when we're playing pubs its vocals only through the PA, when it's acoustic then it's vocals, acoustic guitars, EUB, and a bit of cajon in the PA.

 

I doubt we'll ever need a sub, I'll probably sell the amps, the 15's and the foldback monitors and then buy another pair of the 310's to use as foldback monitors. the desk we've got is way too big as well so that will get swapped out for something smaller as well.

 

If you've got backline for bass and electric guitar, a pair of RCF 310As for what you've set out could be just the ticket! We only stepped up from 310s to 912As when I started putting my bass through the PA (competing with a full rock drum kit!)