What are my statutory rights for a guitar which becomes defective after 3 months ( it's more complicated than it seems !)?

[edstraker123]

Last September I bought a Mooer W900 Intelligent guitar from Andertons : https://www.andertons.co.uk/Mooer-W900-Wing-900-650-Aurora-Pink-Headless-Fanned-Fret-Guitar/

 

It is intelligent in that it links to a phone app which allows you to access effects patches and different guitar models which are sent to the guitar. When it came I was overjoyed with it - it's a cool guitar (subjective !), the tones were great and everything worked like a dream. 3 months later after an app or Android update my phone, a Samsung with the latest android version has become incompatible and I am unable to do a firmware update on the guitar (missing out on new features)and the modelling ( the main reason I bought it ) no longer works. I raised support tickets with Mooer in 3 different ways and they have responded to none of them. I stumbled across a Facebook GTRS group and others are reporting the same issue with Mooer advocating to use a diffent phone ! Having got no satisfaction with Mooer I raised the issue with Andertons claiming the guitar is not fit for purpose and that I'd like to exchange it for something else under my statutory rights. To date they haven't been helpful with one response saying as the fault isn't with the guitar they wouldn't exchange it. I wasn't being fobbed off by this given that the guitar cannot work properly without being connected to the app and the intelligent functions ( some of which no longer work) are listed as key features. Yesterday I downloaded a template from the Which website and have given them 14 days to make things right. They replied by saying they will go back to Mooer for further information which I said was fine provided my issue has been resolved one way or other within the 14 day period. Am I within my rights to demand an exchange / refund given the problem is with the app not the guitar ? ( To me they are inseperable as one won't function properly without the other.) I bought the guitar on Finance via V12 - could I approach them for a chargeback if I get no satisfaction from Andertons ?

[Beedster]

If I had a pound for every time a piece of digital audio studio hardware stopped working or wasn't fully functional as the result of a software issue - usually but not always an OS update - I'd be rich. If Mooer are anything like other tech business in audio, they'll be frantically working on a fix. I hope that's the case, as I can see all sides of the problem here 👍

[edstraker123]

Yes I agree  - suffered the same with Line6 gear in the past. But what is a reasonable timeframe for them to make it right ?( assuming they can)

 

[Beedster]

Just now, edstraker123 said:

Yes I agree  - suffered the same with Line6 gear in the past. But what is a reasonable timeframe for them to make it right ?( assuming they can)

 

 

No idea, IME it will be weeks ratheer than months but that's my experience with pretty large audio manufacturers (UAD/Softube etc). I'd say that unless they've been pretty lax with their T&Cs (Anderton's and Mooer), I'd be surprised if you have much comeback other than the goodwill angle. As you like the guitar, I hope they sort the software issue 👍

[kusee pee]

Andertons have been very good ime with returns and problems.  Worth giving them a shout I would think then take it from there?  Sounds like a cool feature when it works, hope you get it sorted.

[fretmeister]

Get the finance company on it straight away.

 

Don't wait.

[chriswareham]

If the app is broken on current versions of Android, then the guitar is definitely not working as advertised. I'd take this as a warning to not buy any "smart" devices, since you're relying on the manufacturer to provide updates as the app platforms evolve. Most don't produce an update after the initial, often buggy, release. Others go out of business, and the device loses some or all of its functionality as the remote services it requires disappear. Same goes for software bought on a subscription model - it's the dream for software companies, as it generates a lot of repeat revenue rather than a one off purchase. Something like the subscription option for Roland's Cloud offering, where you'll lose all access to your virtual instruments or effects if you can no longer pay. Even if they offer an outright purchase, that's usually just for a license key not the software itself, so cannot be sold on even if it's an add on for a hardware device that you wish to sell it with.

[dave_bass5]

I dont think Anderson's have any blame here, although I guess they might help out.

You updated your phone without checking (easily done of course). The guitar hasn't become faulty, it's the app, and that's not on Anderson's as they sold you the gear and you had it working. If others can still use it then I can't see how it's not fit for purpose in general. 

 

Good luck either way. You cold get a cheap phone to work with this, but I guess it's more a principle thing than actually wanting to get it working now. 

 

[chriswareham]

6 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I dont think Anderson's have any blame here, although I guess they might help out.

You updated your phone without checking (easily done of course). The guitar hasn't become faulty, it's the app, and that's not on Anderson's as they sold you the gear and you had it working. If others can still use it then I can't see how it's not fit for purpose in general. 

 

Good luck either way. You cold get a cheap phone to work with this, but I guess it's more a principle thing than actually wanting to get it working now. 

 

 

If the app support is advertised by the manufacturer as a feature, then it would make an interesting case for testing the applicability of the Sales of Goods Act and Consumer Rights Act. The laws in these kinds of areas are usually interpreted from the perspective of what an "ordinary" member of the public would mean them to be. So it would come down to whether a court decides that support on the current version of the most popular mobile operating system of a major feature is reasonable from the perspective of the purchaser of such a device.

 

Edited just to add, based on my own experience developing software that includes Android apps, Mooer would have access to the beta and pre-release versions of any new version of the operating system. They don't have to scramble to catch up to changes only after a new version is released.

Edited Wednesday at 16:45 by chriswareham

[Wombat]

I agree with the ‘not fit for purpose’ comments but a quick ‘fix’ might be a cheap phone from CeX (or similar) which you could then not update?

I used to play in a band with one them there Behringer Air Mixers which I loved but I couldn’t get out of my head “what happens when either the mixer or the app keeps getting updates”? I have enough problems with Candy Crush 😂.

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I dont think Anderson's have any blame here, although I guess they might help out.

You updated your phone without checking (easily done of course). 

 

That's a hard truth when it comes to this space, it's simply a sign of the times, and it's been moving this way for many years (hardware as well as software, I have a cable drawer with around 30-different cable types that at one time or another connected audio gear to computers or other audio gear but which are now largely redundant). I never allow any updates on a device until I'm sure that all of the manufactures of the hardware I connect to that device have released relevant drivers or workarounds, in my case that's several units by UAD, Softube, and Soundcraft. It can be a complete PITA

[Twigman]

Just now, Wombat said:

I have enough problems with Candy Crush

You and me both - can't stop it - on level 6497 and proper stuck

[dave_bass5]

2 minutes ago, Beedster said:

That's a hard truth when it comes to this space, it's simply a sign of the times, and it's been moving this way for many years (hardware as well as software, I have a cable drawer with around 30-different cable types that at one time or another connected audio gear to computers or other audio gear but which are now largely redundant). I never allow any updates on a device until I'm sure that all of the manufactures of the hardware I connect to that device have released relevant drivers or workarounds, in my case that's several units by UAD, Softube, and Soundcraft. It can be a complete PITA

Ive always been one to do updates as soon as they come out, but since i started to use my MacBook as my main instrument im now very careful. As you say, it seems to be the plugins rather than main apps that are slow to get updated.

 

i do have iOS betas on all my other Apple devices though 😂

Edited Wednesday at 16:52 by dave_bass5

[Beedster]

6 minutes ago, chriswareham said:

 

If the app support is advertised by the manufacturer as a feature, then it would make an interesting case for testing the applicability of the Sales of Goods Act and Consumer Rights Act. The laws in these kinds of areas are usually interpreted from the perspective of what an "ordinary" member of the public would mean them to be. So it would come down to whether a court decides that support on the current version of the most popular mobile operating system of a major feature is reasonable from the perspective of the purchaser of such a device.

 

Edited just to add, based on my own experience developing software that includes Android apps, Mooer would have access to the beta and pre-release versions of any new version of the operating system. They don't have to scramble to catch up to changes only after a new version is released.

 

I agree re testing the legalities here, it's a fine line I suspect

 

Re Mooer having access, I agree when planned updates are made, but as I understand it sometimes an unplanned short-notice fix for an OS can also cause problems? 

[Burns-bass]

You can return it if it doesn’t function as it should. This isn’t the same as not having a cable or suitable device, it has ceased to operate and is faulty.

 

Record everything and continue as you are. If you get nothing back from then consider a small claim. Trust me, Andertons won’t want this and it may “encourage” them to do the right thing.

 

That being said, I’ve only ever had good service from them and I’m sure it will get sorted.

[chriswareham]

23 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Re Mooer having access, I agree when planned updates are made, but as I understand it sometimes an unplanned short-notice fix for an OS can also cause problems? 

 

Security or stability fixes can cause issues, although Android does a very good job of isolating the low level stuff that usually gets updated for these kinds of changes from the higher level libraries an app developer works with. But my experience of dealing with code written by less competent or just downright lazy programmers is that if you design something to be idiot proof, the universe will design a better idiot.

Edited Wednesday at 17:15 by chriswareham

[Beedster]

9 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

You can return it if it doesn’t function as it should.

 

Mmm, I'm not so sure, if the manufacturer indicates that you need a certain app/software to use the instrument, it's not their responsibility if you are unable to run that software on your device, or have accidentally removed it (even via an update). I buy my UAD gear from Anderton's, I can't go back to them when Apple release a new OS so the device no longer works fully, and say I want my money back, I have to monitor the manufacturer's website and keep an eye on their email updates. 

 

I imagine this will resolve itself quickly either via Anderton's who are very good or via a new software release so I doubt it's going to cause @edstraker123 many further problems, but it is a lesson in changed times in audio and musicianship

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, chriswareham said:

 

But my experience of dealing with code written by less competent or just downright lazy programmers is that if you design something to be idiot proof, the universe will design a better idiot.

 

Nicely put 👍

[BigRedX]

This is the problem with using a phone which normally has several other more important uses which require it to be kept up to date for running other software. Does the guitar support control form a proper computer perhaps using a web browser interface?

[dave_bass5]

38 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

You can return it if it doesn’t function as it should. This isn’t the same as not having a cable or suitable device, it has ceased to operate and is faulty.

But isn’t that on the person buying the item to ensure they have a suitable device to use with it? 
isn’t it like they state you need an apple device and you do, but then change to Android and want your money back. Obviously that’s just an example but does that mean at some point in the future i could expect to give it back to shop. 

i noticed Anderson’s dont state what app version etc is needed, but as the owner had the correct device and then changed it is it really on the shop? Id say this is a manufacturer issue. 

[chriswareham]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

i noticed Anderson’s dont state what app version etc is needed, but as the owner had the correct device and then changed it is it really on the shop? Id say this is a manufacturer issue. 

 

Regardless of whether it's a manufacturer issue, the consumer protection laws state it's the vendor who is responsible for dealing with a customer's problem. It's then for the vendor to deal with the manufacturer.

[edstraker123]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Does the guitar support control form a proper computer perhaps using a web browser interface?

No phone app only unfortunately.

 

Thanks for the comments - definitely a manufacturer problem but my contract is with Andertons and whilst I appreciate the product would become potentially unsupported over time, after 3 months just isn't on given it cost £850 and I guess this timescale would be a factor in any fit for purpose claim.Mooer have completely ignored all of my support requests too so cannot pursue anything with them.

 

the cheap phone is not a bad idea as a last resort, but would preclude me from any software updates and /or improvements which isn't what I paid for.

2 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

noticed Anderson’s dont state what app version etc is needed, but as the owner had the correct device and then changed it is it really on the shop

I didn't change my phone -it was an android or GTRS app update that caused the issue. The guitar is supposed to work with Android 6 and later.

 

Nothing back from Andertons today.

 

 

 

[Kev]

Andertons may well help you try and resolve the problem but this definitely sounds like a manufacturer issue, and your warranty will be with them.  All Andertons can really do is offer assistance at their discretion.

 

I wouldn't consider cancelling your finance agreement or anything like that.

[OliverBlackman]

29 minutes ago, edstraker123 said:

Nothing back from Andertons today.

 

 

 

I reckon they will be putting more effort into comms with their solicitor than with the manufacturer.

 

I agree that what they have sold is working and the part that you are supposed to supply is not, albeit at the fault of the manufacturer.

[nekomatic]

7 minutes ago, Kev said:

Andertons may well help you try and resolve the problem but this definitely sounds like a manufacturer issue, and your warranty will be with them.  All Andertons can really do is offer assistance at their discretion.

This is not the legal position, as other people have noted. When you buy something from a retailer your contract is with the retailer.