What are my statutory rights for a guitar which becomes defective after 3 months ( it's more complicated than it seems !)?

[itu]

One big issue I learned from my then colleagues:

 

Pineapple is just one system that is updated every now and then.

 

Robot is a family of operating systems, because manufacturers can and do tweak it for their own HW and UI. This has led to several funny (or less funny) issues over the years. Sunny has a lot different OS than Singsung than Two- than many others.

 

Banana is much more expensive (one manufacturer) and its pure number breaking performance is quite lame compared to Aliens, but as the system is just one, it has won many users, and coders (which means applications including HW).

 

With Papaya you most probably would have a working system. With the other, I wouldn't ever be so sure. And after any update anything can happen.

 

(I use both, because I have to use Fruit 12 Pro at work, and it is the worst phone I have ever had. One dealer started to laugh when he saw it, and asked have I managed to make any calls with it? Truth is: not many without WLAN. The same with email.)

[Kev]

1 hour ago, nekomatic said:

This is not the legal position, as other people have noted. When you buy something from a retailer your contract is with the retailer. 

Do you have a link to something explaining this?

 

Outside of the 30 day or similar period with the store, i understood warranties were serviced by the maker of the goods, not the shop from where they were bought?   Occasionally stores will offer their own warranty (Thomann do this don't they?) but i have never seen Andertons advertise this.

 

Edit: Just saw this https://help.andertons.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/360009432120-How-Do-I-Find-Out-About-My-Manufacturer-s-Warranty so Andertons do offer to administer a manufacturer's 12 month warranty.  The grey area here is that there is no "fault" with the product, there is an argument instead that it's not fit for purpose.  I don't know what the legal position is on this, but I suspect unless Andertons went cavalier with their product information, responsibility will be outside the sales warranty and will be a dispute with the manufacturer.

 

Edited Wednesday at 22:17 by Kev

[chriswareham]

24 minutes ago, itu said:

One big issue I learned from my then colleagues:

 

Pineapple is just one system that is updated every now and then.

 

Robot is a family of operating systems, because manufacturers can and do tweak it for their own HW and UI. This has led to several funny (or less funny) issues over the years. Sunny has a lot different OS than Singsung than Two- than many others.

 

Banana is much more expensive (one manufacturer) and its pure number breaking performance is quite lame compared to Aliens, but as the system is just one, it has won many users, and coders (which means applications including HW).

 

With Papaya you most probably would have a working system. With the other, I wouldn't ever be so sure. And after any update anything can happen.

 

(I use both, because I have to use Fruit 12 Pro at work, and it is the worst phone I have ever had. One dealer started to laugh when he saw it, and asked have I managed to make any calls with it? Truth is: not many without WLAN. The same with email.)

 

In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, come again?

Edited Wednesday at 22:18 by chriswareham

[dave_bass5]

2 hours ago, edstraker123 said:

No phone app only unfortunately.

 

Thanks for the comments - definitely a manufacturer problem but my contract is with Andertons and whilst I appreciate the product would become potentially unsupported over time, after 3 months just isn't on given it cost £850 and I guess this timescale would be a factor in any fit for purpose claim.Mooer have completely ignored all of my support requests too so cannot pursue anything with them.

 

the cheap phone is not a bad idea as a last resort, but would preclude me from any software updates and /or improvements which isn't what I paid for.

I didn't change my phone -it was an android or GTRS app update that caused the issue. The guitar is supposed to work with Android 6 and later.

 

Nothing back from Andertons today.

 

 

 

No, that was just an example, i know you didn’t change your phone.
Something working fine and then the user changes to something that doesnt work is going to be tricky to resolve IME.  
im not blaming you, we have all done things like this, but had you not made the decision to change something then you would still be up and running. Had you brought the guitar and found you could not use it then of course you would return it. 
 

And of course Andertons can’t re write the code to make things work again, which is  why i said it’s a manufacturer issue, although of course your sales agreement is with Andertons and they have to deal with you. 
 Im just trying to see it from a different perspective. 

[edstraker123]

2 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

I agree that what they have sold is working and the part that you are supposed to supply is not, albeit at the fault of the manufacturer.

I disagree with this - to me its like buying a toy with the batteries not included, the inference is that if you put the right batteries in it will work as it should otherwise you would return it. My phone met the designated specification and worked effectively before the change. I really don't think you can separate the guitar from the app as one won't work effectively without the other.

[edstraker123]

3 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

but had you not made the decision to change something then you would still be up and running

I don't see an android upgrade as a decision given the potential security vulnerabilities you could leave yourself open to by not doing it. Given that the phone would also contain other apps , by not upgrading you could also compromise them in the end and I am sure the realistic expectation from Mooer will be that users will update their phones otherwise they would have to stipulate this as a condition of purchase.

From the manual : GTRSApp
The GTRS App functions as the editor software for the GTRS guitar.
Users can easily select effects and create presets for the GTRS
system,download and share tones to the cloud,and update the
firmware of their GTRS guitar.Several tools for practice are included
in the app as well.
 1 Get the GTRS app

 

To me this clearly indicates the app is an integral part of the purchase and whilst not directly supplied by Andertons they know users will have to download it to use the guitar.

 

[OliverBlackman]

16 minutes ago, edstraker123 said:

I disagree with this - to me its like buying a toy with the batteries not included, the inference is that if you put the right batteries in it will work as it should otherwise you would return it. My phone met the designated specification and worked effectively before the change. I really don't think you can separate the guitar from the app as one won't work effectively without the other.

Well yes but if those batteries didn’t work you would take it up with the company that made/ sold the batteries not the place you bought the toy from.

 

The app was downloaded from another retailer. Is it called play store or something on android?

[Burns-bass]

5 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

Mmm, I'm not so sure, if the manufacturer indicates that you need a certain app/software to use the instrument, it's not their responsibility if you are unable to run that software on your device, or have accidentally removed it (even via an update). I buy my UAD gear from Anderton's, I can't go back to them when Apple release a new OS so the device no longer works fully, and say I want my money back, I have to monitor the manufacturer's website and keep an eye on their email updates. 

 

I imagine this will resolve itself quickly either via Anderton's who are very good or via a new software release so I doubt it's going to cause @edstraker123 many further problems, but it is a lesson in changed times in audio and musicianship

I’m trusting that the OP has kept the phone up to date.

 

If it’s a simple comparability issue, then fair play. But it seems that the software won’t work depute an OS being the latest version.

 

Maybe there’s a simple explanation here…

[nekomatic]

59 minutes ago, Kev said:

Do you have a link to something explaining this?

 

Which? have a fairly comprehensive summary:

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

 

I also found a mention on this page of the situation when something stops working because of a software update, although it's referring to the phone itself rather than another product that depends on the phone:

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/my-mobile-phone-is-faulty-what-can-i-do-ajAzA5S2Uv1t

 

I'm not a lawyer and it may be this isn't clear-cut but from a layman's point of view it is obvious that mobile phones get software updates, which have to be installed for security and to maintain compatibility with other apps, so if you buy a product that can only work with a mobile phone then you should be able to expect it to keep working for a reasonable time in that situation.

 

Citizens Advice also have good advice pages and you can contact them for individual advice if the standard information doesn't solve your problem - that might be where I'd go next if @edstraker123 doesn't get a satisfactory response to his letter…

[tauzero]

2 hours ago, chriswareham said:

 

In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, come again?

 

Took me a second run at it; pineapple = apple, robot = android, sunny probably = sony, singsung = samsung, etc. And there appear to be multiple substitutions for each OS.

 

I presume it's a compatibility issue with the latest update to Android for that phone (or for several phones). I encountered a very similar situation recently with Nissan's app for first gen and early second gen Leaf EVs - Nissan were rather more reactive than Mooer appear to have been, they acknowledged my bug report and a fix was rolled out a few days later. Legally I have no idea where the OP stands with this because the guitar which he bought isn't faulty, but the app (which presumably was free) is.

[Twigman]

I have several apps which I bought (and PAID for) which worked well on earlier IOS  (apple) but do not run on IOS 18. The writers of the apps (one of which cost me £10.95) tell me that there is not enough demand to develop these apps for the current OS and thus have been discontinued. Seems fair enough.

 

its like if you buy software designed to run on Windows XP but upgrade your OS to Windows10 expecting the software to still work. 

[edstraker123]

29 minutes ago, Twigman said:

ts like if you buy software designed to run on Windows XP but upgrade your OS to Windows10 expecting the software to still work

But this isn't really like that as it should run on the current version and as far as I can tell does on none Samsung android phones.

[edstraker123]

8 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

Well yes but if those batteries didn’t work you would take it up with the company that made/ sold the batteries not the place you bought the toy from.

 

The app was downloaded from another retailer. Is it called play store or something on android?

Well the company that made and sold the batteries in this analogy are the same company who made the toy - I did try and take it up with them - they completely ignored me.

 

The app was downloaded from the play store for free but was developed by the guitar manufacturer specifically to be able to use the guitar - it can't function properly without it

[Beedster]

8 minutes ago, edstraker123 said:

Well the company that made and sold the batteries in this analogy are the same company who made the toy - I did try and take it up with them - they completely ignored me.

 

The app was downloaded from the play store for free but was developed by the guitar manufacturer specifically to be able to use the guitar - it can't function properly without it

 

As I mentioned, earlier, you can bet that as long as they've sold sufficient guitars, that Mooer are also working on a fix for this. There lack of response might simply be the result of the information already being out there, are you checking their website for updates/have you registered with them for emails/notifications etc?

[BigRedX]

How long has it been since the app stopped functioning properly? Does it fail in that it won't even load, will load but won't connect to the guitar, or that just some functions not longer work?

 

A detailed look through the tech specs of the guitar on those websites selling it and looking at the manuals available on the GTRS website, there is absolutely no mention of which versions of Android (or iOS) are required for app compatibility. Therefore IMO it is not unreasonable to assume that the device OS version doesn't matter for the app to work. Also given that most people's mobile devices are used for lots of far more security conscious apps which often rely on the OS being updated, it is (again IMO) unreasonable to expect people not to update the OS on their device, especially since for security reasons most have their set to install automatic updates.

[OliverBlackman]

1 hour ago, edstraker123 said:

Well the company that made and sold the batteries in this analogy are the same company who made the toy - I did try and take it up with them - they completely ignored me.

 

The app was downloaded from the play store for free but was developed by the guitar manufacturer specifically to be able to use the guitar - it can't function properly without it

Exactly, nowt to do with Andertons. Their end of the bargain works fine.

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

How long has it been since the app stopped functioning properly? Does it fail in that it won't even load, will load but won't connect to the guitar, or that just some functions not longer work?

 

A detailed look through the tech specs of the guitar on those websites selling it and looking at the manuals available on the GTRS website, there is absolutely no mention of which versions of Android (or iOS) are required for app compatibility. Therefore IMO it is not unreasonable to assume that the device OS version doesn't matter for the app to work. Also given that most people's mobile devices are used for lots of far more security conscious apps which often rely on the OS being updated, it is (again IMO) unreasonable to expect people not to update the OS on their device, especially since for security reasons most have their set to install automatic updates.

 

I had some issues with Pro Tools a few years back - it was loading or not loading apparently completely at random - which it transpired were the result of some software I'd downloaded that, IIRC, was related to my Adobe apps on the same device (if Adobe was open Pro Tools wouldn't launch, I might be wrong on the specifics but it was something along these lines). I tried calling various helplines and emailing, but eventually just scrawled through the forums on the Pro Tools website and eventually identified and isolated the problem. I learned a lot of other stuff while doing so also!

[tubbybloke68]

Let’s hope Mooer are working on a fix and maybe the information is already out there, BUT im sorry, to just not offer any response whatsoever is good old fashioned ‘ shit customer service’ in my book. Regardless of who’s to blame etc there’s no excuse for no communication  at all . 

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, tubbybloke68 said:

Let’s hope Mooer are working on a fix and maybe the information is already out there, BUT im sorry, to just not offer any response whatsoever is good old fashioned ‘ shit customer service’ in my book. Regardless of who’s to blame etc there’s no excuse for no communication  at all . 

I agree but sometimes it's simply resources, many businesses are up against it at present, there's no slack and it only takes one person to be on leave or ill and emails don't get responded to and things get behind.

 

Anyway, if Mooer are anything like a lot of tech providers, I imagine 95% of emails/calls they receive are likely requesting information that's already available on their website etc, that's been my main lesson with digital audio, specifically that it's nearly always quicker to sort the problem via the various manufacturer/audio/musician forums than via emails/helplines. In fact, if the @edstraker123 asked the question in one of the technical forums here it might be that someone has come across it or similar and can provide a solution, there's a lot of geeks here after all   

[BigRedX]

It appears that the current solution is to buy another device with the appropriate OS soles for the purposes of using it with the guitar, which IMO is very poor.

 

The way I see it, is that the app is an integral part of this particular guitar, and since it only works on mobile devices it is unreasonable to expect users not to update the OS on these due to security concerns. Without a functioning app the OP could have bought a better guitar for the same price or something cheaper if they just wanted a guitar. The additional functionality is part of the USP of this particular guitar.

Edited Thursday at 09:36 by BigRedX

[Beedster]

6 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

It appears that the current solution is to buy another device with the appropriate OS soles for the purposes of using it with the guitar, which IMO is very poor.

 

The way I see it, is that the app is an integral part of this particular guitar, and since it only works on mobile devices it is unreasonable to expect users not to update the OS on these due to security concerns. Without a functioning app the OP could have bought a better guitar for the same price or something cheaper if they just wanted a guitar. The additional functionality is part of the USP of this particular guitar.

 

I agree @BigRedX, but a big part of this is whether the problem is permanent, which I doubt, or something that's being fixed and could be resolved imminently? You sound like you might be a bit better informed re this 👍

[BigRedX]

Which is why I have asked the OP how long it has been since the problem first occurred and what the actual symptoms are. Given also that Mooer should be receiving OS updates for testing their products in advance of them being released for the public there is no excuse IMO for an update to take more than a week to be made available after the problem is discovered. The usual reason why what appears to be a minor OS update has caused an app to fail is because it wasn't written with 100% compliance in the first place probably because the developers think they know better. Spoiler: most of the time they don't. The lack of a timely update to me suggests that the product has already been abandoned.

 

It is also in the retailer's interests to at least be seen to be doing something about this, as otherwise they have potentially unsellable stock or unhappy new customers whose guitar won't work properly from day one of getting it. 

[Beedster]

7 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

The lack of a timely update to me suggests that the product has already been abandoned.

 

Another sign of the times  

[EBS_freak]

17 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

Ive always been one to do updates as soon as they come out, but since i started to use my MacBook as my main instrument im now very careful. As you say, it seems to be the plugins rather than main apps that are slow to get updated.

 

i do have iOS betas on all my other Apple devices though 😂

Have your "music" build on an external SSD. Remote boot from that on a gig - that way you can always run an "outdated but stable" version. When it came to software and gigging... I was of the mind, if it works and is stable, dont mess with it.

[asingardenof]

I'm sure Andertons have a warranty on products they sell, but outside that if a fault occurs with a product within six months of purchase then under the Consumer Rights Act it's deemed to have been sold in that condition, so you're entitled to ask for it to be replaced or refunded. There's a little more to it than this but that's your statutory backup.