Orchestra bass tabs. Bit confused here...

[Downunderwonder]

4 hours ago, fretmeister said:

It would be very odd for a bassist in this situation to be expected to swap instruments or retune.

The whole thing is odd. TAB is not what you usually get issued.

 

There may be regular notation printed parts for bass in someone's drawer.

 

If so there is a golden opportunity to knuckle down and figure out notation with pop tunes you already know.

[solo4652]

Arranger's reply to my request for clarification:

 

"The tuning is all standard tuning, no detuning needed. With that said, as I warned you, some of the arrangements will be different keys due to accommodating the transposing instruments and trying to give them a more comfortable key in which to play. I know you like to write your own tab, which isn’t a problem, but I’d advise looking at what I’ve given you so you get an idea of keys and structure. Once you've joined us permanently, I can let you have access to the Dropbox which has the rehearsal tracks we use during the [rehearsal] sessions."

Edited Thursday at 22:50 by solo4652

[OliverBlackman]

16 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

Arranger's reply to my request for clarification:

 

"The tuning is all standard tuning, no detuning needed. With that said, as I warned you, some of the arrangements will be different keys due to accommodating the transposing instruments and trying to give them a more comfortable key in which to play. I know you like to write your own tab, which isn’t a problem, but I’d advise looking at what I’ve given you so you get an idea of keys and structure. Once you've joined us permanently, I can let you have access to the Dropbox which has the rehearsal tracks we use during the [rehearsal] sessions."

So what he has sent you is correct for what you will perform then? Being a different key to an original track is common in many covers gigs depending on instruments or vocal ranges.

[Downunderwonder]

2 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

So what he has sent you is correct for what you will perform

Yep. The tab lines up with the notation.

 

If you would rather play it with more usual fingerings you have to transpose your bass.

 

My advice. Grab the opportunity to learn to read notation and play it on the regular 4 string as written.

[simonlittle]

Sounds like the ink is correct and the handwritten notes about funny tunings can be ignored. Perhaps the previous bass player wanted to practice alongside some of the original records in their original keys?? They really should’ve scrubbed those out before handing the music on to avoid such confusion

[fretmeister]

7 hours ago, solo4652 said:

Arranger's reply to my request for clarification:

 

"The tuning is all standard tuning, no detuning needed. With that said, as I warned you, some of the arrangements will be different keys due to accommodating the transposing instruments and trying to give them a more comfortable key in which to play. I know you like to write your own tab, which isn’t a problem, but I’d advise looking at what I’ve given you so you get an idea of keys and structure. Once you've joined us permanently, I can let you have access to the Dropbox which has the rehearsal tracks we use during the [rehearsal] sessions."

Surely he could let you have access to the rehearsal tracks now?

 

A lot of the arrangements I was doing were published by Hal Leonard and they are on youtube and that was very useful for home practice .

[Beedster]

9 hours ago, simonlittle said:

Sounds like the ink is correct and the handwritten notes about funny tunings can be ignored. Perhaps the previous bass player wanted to practice alongside some of the original records in their original keys?? They really should’ve scrubbed those out before handing the music on to avoid such confusion

That makes sense, also means he’d be playing the right positions for live (assume Bb) while rehearsing as recorded (assume A). But yes, a headf*** for a new player using the same sheets. A lesson to be learned  

[Huge Hands]

I play in a concert band (brass, woodwind) and like you, joined as a reading novice 11 years ago.

 

I found it is the norm for the band to hardly ever play in the original key of a modern piece - I would guestimate the majority of our pieces are usually played in F, Bb and Eb keys (1-3 flats). 

 

WIth the concert band, if you want to play along, the easiest way is to find a video of another concert band playing the same arrangement.  

 

I am guessing that your arranger may be trying to be clever and make their own arrangements for an orchestra, which means there likely won't be any other recordings, unless your orchestra has played it elsewhere before and been filmed/posted?

 

I wonder how that works with copyright?   As far as I understood it, bands like ours have to buy scores and with that comes some performance rights? 

 

I always I assumed that was why whenever you get a famous group medley (ie Abba, The Beatles. Elton John etc)  you either get one really famous one and a load of less famous songs, or the arrangements are so butchered they don't sound anywhere near the original.   I thought this was because it was too expensive for the publishers to secure the copyright from the original artists....?

 

I could be very wrong and overthinking it all of course....

 

Another one to watch out for with these kind of bands/orchestras - if original scores, you may get "tuba" or "basses" parts which can be written an octave lower than bass guitar parts.   Although I know what the notes are - I often struggle if sight reading faster parts and trying to transpose up an octave at the same time!

[solo4652]

I'd like to thank everybody here for helping me to understand what's going on with these orchestra tabs. A lot of the confusion comes from me attempting to play bass in an environment  that I have no previous experience of. I naively thought it would be like playing in a large covers band but, of course, it certainly isn't!

 

This is what I'm going to do: I'll ask the arranger to send me the tab for four songs, and to tell me about any key changes. I'll also ask him to send me the rehearsal tracks for those songs. That way, I'll give myself the best chance of going to the next rehearsal and making a useful contribution. I can't sight-read tabs, so to be given a tab sheet sight unseen and be expected to play it there and then is not going to happen. If he can't/won't send me the rehearsal tracks, I suppose I could use Audacity to change the pitch of a standard YouTube recording for re-keyed songs to give me something to practise against, but that's not going to cover any new arrangements. The four songs would be: Riders on the storm, Baker Street, One Vision and More than Words (Extreme). There's also The Chain. If any of that causes any difficulties for the arranger, I'll most probably throw in the towel. 

[fretmeister]

26 minutes ago, Huge Hands said:

I play in a concert band (brass, woodwind) and like you, joined as a reading novice 11 years ago.

 

I found it is the norm for the band to hardly ever play in the original key of a modern piece - I would guestimate the majority of our pieces are usually played in F, Bb and Eb keys (1-3 flats). 

 

WIth the concert band, if you want to play along, the easiest way is to find a video of another concert band playing the same arrangement.  

 

I am guessing that your arranger may be trying to be clever and make their own arrangements for an orchestra, which means there likely won't be any other recordings, unless your orchestra has played it elsewhere before and been filmed/posted?

 

I wonder how that works with copyright?   As far as I understood it, bands like ours have to buy scores and with that comes some performance rights? 

 

I always I assumed that was why whenever you get a famous group medley (ie Abba, The Beatles. Elton John etc)  you either get one really famous one and a load of less famous songs, or the arrangements are so butchered they don't sound anywhere near the original.   I thought this was because it was too expensive for the publishers to secure the copyright from the original artists....?

 

I could be very wrong and overthinking it all of course....

 

Another one to watch out for with these kind of bands/orchestras - if original scores, you may get "tuba" or "basses" parts which can be written an octave lower than bass guitar parts.   Although I know what the notes are - I often struggle if sight reading faster parts and trying to transpose up an octave at the same time!

 

 

Re-arrangements of existing tunes are still covered by copyright / IP rights. They are referred to as Derivative Works.

Butchering just means the new arranger didn't know what they are doing, or they got instructions to do it in a simplified way or to suit a particular band make up. Hal Leonard has multiple versions of famous tunes. Sometimes only slightly different to allow for junior / senior players. and then sometimes for a Concert/Jazz band that often has bass/drums/piano and then another version for a Marching Band and so on.

 

Some of them are just crap even with the same publisher. The recommended HL version of "Sir Duke" is awful - the main run is barely there at all. Fortunately the Mossman arrangement (also by HL) is far better and has some excellent jazzy re-arrangements while keeping the normal progression of the song.

 

When you buy sheet music most of the time it comes with the right to play for educational purposes and on your own and in non-profit & charity situations. Just can't make profit with it. In reality they just don't care unless you are recording and then releasing it for money: There are loads of school and community bands on youtube playing Hal Leonard arrangements and they never get taken down.

[fretmeister]

1 minute ago, solo4652 said:

I'd like to thank everybody here for helping me to understand what's going on with these orchestra tabs. A lot of the confusion comes from me attempting to play bass in an environment  that I have no previous experience of. I naively thought it would be like playing in a large covers band but, of course, it certainly isn't!

 

This is what I'm going to do: I'll ask the arranger to send me the tab for four songs, and to tell me about any key changes. I'll also ask him to send me the rehearsal tracks for those songs. That way, I'll give myself the best chance of going to the next rehearsal and making a useful contribution. I can't sight-read tabs, so to be given a tab sheet sight unseen and be expected to play it there and then is not going to happen. If he can't/won't send me the rehearsal tracks, I suppose I could use Audacity to change the pitch of a standard YouTube recording for re-keyed songs to give me something to practise against, but that's not going to cover any new arrangements. The four songs would be: Riders on the storm, Baker Street, One Vision and More than Words (Extreme). There's also The Chain. If any of that causes any difficulties for the arranger, I'll most probably throw in the towel. 

 

 

Do not throw in the towel!

 

Nobody can sight read tabs - they are a crap system for sightreading as a fret number doesn't give any timing information for the note.

 

Trust me - 10 mins a day and you'll be reading Grade 1 in 6 months and those images you have shared are no more difficult than that.

[SimonK]

Every band I've ever been in, of any type, has started off with music/tabs in standard tuning followed by a discussion of whether the key works or not, and then usually the key might be changed to suit the singers (or Eb instruments etc.). But it has always been up to each musician to transpose for themselves - either by doing it on the fly, re-writing/re-printing the music in the new key, or by cheating (often keyboardists using a transpose button but I suppose if I had a lot of Eb songs I probably would detune a bass by a semi-tone).

 

It looks to me that the previous bass player had indeed decided to detune their bass, but then create tabs in different keys on the basis of playing a detuned bass, meaning that the fingering is up a semi-tone in all keys compared to standard tuning. Makes sense, but does need explanation if someone else is trying to use the tab!

[Huge Hands]

18 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

Some of them are just crap even with the same publisher. The recommended HL version of "Sir Duke" is awful - the main run is barely there at all.

 

Agreed.  I remember doing a Queen medley (may have been HL arrangement) thinking I'm about to play the classic bassline to Another One Bites The Dust, and I'm resting - it had been given to bari-sax and bass clarinet!

 

Luckily, our MD, who is really hot on flutes and clarinets playing the exact rhythms "....It's a dotted quaver!!" lets me have a bit more free reign and encourages me to funk things up or make basslines sound more like the original.    

 

Although that could be because he realises I'll never get it perfectly as written lol!

 

We did a Michael Jackson medley and he let me add the Billie Jean bassline by ear as again it was on Bari Sax.

 

To the OP - as others have said, you will be massively out of your comfort zone at times but it is great to get your reading up to speed.  

[SimonK]

17 minutes ago, Huge Hands said:

 

Luckily, our MD, who is really hot on flutes and clarinets playing the exact rhythms "....It's a dotted quaver!!" lets me have a bit more free reign and encourages me to funk things up or make basslines sound more like the original.    

 

Although that could be because he realises I'll never get it perfectly as written lol!

 

 

This is so important! I make it very clear to every band I'm in that I'm not the right player if they just want someone to stick to what's written. I get bored far too easily and start experimenting once I've played something a few times! Of course iconic bass lines need to stay more or less the same, but elsewhere I start experimenting with different fingerings, different octaves, trying it on a fretless instead, seeing if a different syncopation works...

[fretmeister]

1 hour ago, SimonK said:

 

This is so important! I make it very clear to every band I'm in that I'm not the right player if they just want someone to stick to what's written. I get bored far too easily and start experimenting once I've played something a few times! Of course iconic bass lines need to stay more or less the same, but elsewhere I start experimenting with different fingerings, different octaves, trying it on a fretless instead, seeing if a different syncopation works...

 

Surely the bass player in a big band type arrangement is the very definition of a sideman who has to play what is on the sheet?

 

If I thought of something that I thought worked better I always asked the MD so it could be tried at a rehearsal and then either officially changed or not. The last thing the rest of the band needs is for 1 person to improv unexpectedly and have them all second guessing whether they have lost their place in the tune!

Edited Friday at 12:11 by fretmeister

[pete.young]

2 hours ago, solo4652 said:

I'd like to thank everybody here for helping me to understand what's going on with these orchestra tabs. A lot of the confusion comes from me attempting to play bass in an environment  that I have no previous experience of. I naively thought it would be like playing in a large covers band but, of course, it certainly isn't!

 

This is what I'm going to do: I'll ask the arranger to send me the tab for four songs, and to tell me about any key changes. I'll also ask him to send me the rehearsal tracks for those songs. That way, I'll give myself the best chance of going to the next rehearsal and making a useful contribution. I can't sight-read tabs, so to be given a tab sheet sight unseen and be expected to play it there and then is not going to happen. If he can't/won't send me the rehearsal tracks, I suppose I could use Audacity to change the pitch of a standard YouTube recording for re-keyed songs to give me something to practise against, but that's not going to cover any new arrangements. The four songs would be: Riders on the storm, Baker Street, One Vision and More than Words (Extreme). There's also The Chain. If any of that causes any difficulties for the arranger, I'll most probably throw in the towel. 

Or, learn to read bass clef. And get used to practicing without an accompanying track. Thats what most orchestral players do.

[Beedster]

Learning to read notation is a joy, and a profoundly liberating experience especially if up to this point you have been dependent on tabs. As mentioned earlier, tab tells you nothing other than where you put your finger, so is utterly useless unless you already know the piece well, in fact I often find it quicker to work out a bass part by ear than I do by tab. I'd say that some of the estimates re learning times above seem a little extended to me, with days of working from a score that has both tab and notation you'll start to recognise finger placement from notation (so you're already able to do everything that tab can do for you), and while the learning curve around timing of notes is more complex, it's an entirely logical system so you will no doubt catch on quickly, especially if you start with relatively simple pieces. Have fun 👍

[SimonK]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

 

Surely the bass player in a big band type arrangement is the very definition of a sideman who has to play what is on the sheet?

 

 

Yes I agree - hence it's not for everyone as it is a cultural difference. Thus said some bands are a bit more flexible than others.

[fretmeister]

1 hour ago, SimonK said:

 

Yes I agree - hence it's not for everyone as it is a cultural difference. Thus said some bands are a bit more flexible than others.

 

 

I do remember one occasion at a rehearsal where we were playing a big band version of Europe's "Final Countdown."

 

The bass part was crap and the entire arrangement lacked the feel of the original which had quite a driving tempo.

So I did something different.

 

The MD was all "what on earth are you playing?"

Me: "Exactly what is on the sheet."

MD: "No you are not"

Me: "I am - I'm just not playing the bass part! I'm playing the guitar part. It's on the sheet"

 

The guitar part is quite gallop-like. We then tried it both ways and my version was preferred, especially as at the time we didn't have a guitarist.

 

My formative years of being obsessed by Steve Harris definitely helped there!

[Huge Hands]

6 hours ago, fretmeister said:

 

Surely the bass player in a big band type arrangement is the very definition of a sideman who has to play what is on the sheet?

 

If I thought of something that I thought worked better I always asked the MD so it could be tried at a rehearsal and then either officially changed or not. The last thing the rest of the band needs is for 1 person to improv unexpectedly and have them all second guessing whether they have lost their place in the tune!

I do my best to read and play classical and traditional stuff verbatim, its just the more modern/poppy stuff that he lets me let loose on. 

 

What I've noticed is that a lot of the conductor scores don't appear to go as far down as the bass parts, or are so big, he's not really looking down there too much, so I get away with more.  

 

I don't do anything crazy, just a few added root/5th extra bumps to change the feel or some adjoining runs or fills.  He has occasionally come to me and said "this is a bit of a boring arrangement, can you do your thing on it?"

 

Most of it I try in rehearsal first to see if I get a reaction or not.   If I don't, or it is a good reaction, I'll keep it in. 

 

I do always listen to Euphonium/Bass Trombone/Bari Sax/Bass Clarinet as best I can to make sure I am not trampling or screwing up someone else's part.  I am quite lucky in one way that they always struggle to get/keep tuba players, so most of the time I'm kind of on my own at the very bottom lot of the time.   Having said that, I do enjoy playing along with a tuba when we do get them as you can split parts/solos/chordy bits and get different feels etc.

 

 They also have an amazing drummer who will go with me/take me with him and still be able to sight read the various drum parts for all the little percussion hits etc across multiple scores. If he ever left I would have to think long and hard about staying or not.

[Downunderwonder]

8 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Trust me - 10 mins a day and you'll be reading Grade 1 in 6 months and those images you have shared are no more difficult than that.

I don’t know about grades but those bass parts are ideal teeth cutting material.

 

20 minutes a day and in a week he should be OK to bumble through a new one actually reading it. That's when confidence grows.

 

Reading the music isn't the hard part. The plopping of the fingers in time in the right place is. You already know how to do that!

[mcnach]

On 16/01/2025 at 20:40, fretmeister said:

The one you are playing might be in a different key.

 

That’s very common for this sort of thing.

 

Blues Brothers Gimme Some Lovin is originally in E major. But one of the most popular community orchestra arrangements is in F Major to make it easier for the transposing instruments.

 

Basically for this sort of thing you’ll have to get used to the version you are playing to be quite different from the original recording.

 

This.

 

Forget the tuning, make sure you know what key they're going to play those songs in, and then play the right notes using whatever tuning you find convenient.

 

After years of trying and not telling with 5 string basses, I finally switched for good when I started depping for a band and found they gave me the wrong keys to a few. A 5 string bass makes transposing quite straight forward.

[mcnach]

17 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Surely he could let you have access to the rehearsal tracks now?

 

A lot of the arrangements I was doing were published by Hal Leonard and they are on youtube and that was very useful for home practice .

 

Indeed, it sounds a bit... obtuse not to let you have those tracks now. It's NOW that they would really be useful, not later on when you've already familiar with how they play them 🤷

[fretmeister]

On 18/01/2025 at 00:26, mcnach said:

 

Indeed, it sounds a bit... obtuse not to let you have those tracks now. It's NOW that they would really be useful, not later on when you've already familiar with how they play them 🤷

 

Maybe the boss thinks the OP is going to steal the tracks and then set up a competing band... organising rehearsals for maybe 20 people and dealing with all that admin....   

 

(I'd rather cut my own hands off!)

[Stub Mandrel]

On 17/01/2025 at 12:47, Beedster said:

As mentioned earlier, tab tells you nothing other than where you put your finger

 

Really?