Orchestra bass tabs. Bit confused here...

[fretmeister]

25 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Really?

 

 

 

That sort of thing is rather rare.

And it doesn't look like it is in C Major so it's lacking a key signature.

 

I don't know why so many guitarists and bassists try to find often more complex ways of reading than just learning the system that every other instrument uses without a thought.

 

It really isn't difficult and despite the "don't learn theory - it ruins creativity" crowd, this is NOT learning theory, it's just learning reading.

We can all read a novel in our primary language without needing to know what the Past Perfect Progressive tense is or how it works.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

It also doesn't mention tuning so there is no actual confirmation of pitch information.

 

And it doesn't have a clef so it could be for bass, or as it shows 4 strings it could be for violin, cello, uke as well.

Edited Monday at 10:43 by fretmeister

[SimonK]

40 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

 

 

That sort of thing is rather rare.

And it doesn't look like it is in C Major so it's lacking a key signature.

 

I don't know why so many guitarists and bassists try to find often more complex ways of reading than just learning the system that every other instrument uses without a thought.

 

It really isn't difficult and despite the "don't learn theory - it ruins creativity" crowd, this is NOT learning theory, it's just learning reading.

We can all read a novel in our primary language without needing to know what the Past Perfect Progressive tense is or how it works.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

It also doesn't mention tuning so there is no actual confirmation of pitch information.

 

And it doesn't have a clef so it could be for bass, or as it shows 4 strings it could be for violin, cello, uke as well.

 

As a classical guitarist originally, there is place for tab to see how someone else chose to finger something. Certainly a major challenge I had when I took things seriously was trying to work out the best fingering/position... but yes a pre-requisite was being able to read normal music!

[fretmeister]

That'ss a weird thing with tab. It limits the player to someone else’s choice of position playing.

I once bought the official Muse bass book and although the notes were right, Hysteria’s tab was all string skipping instead of pedalling open strings. It made it much harder to play.

 

I suspect they used software to read the notation a human had written out and it just generated the lowest possible position for a note rather than considering playing ease.

Edited 6 hours ago by fretmeister
Spelling!

[tauzero]

6 hours ago, fretmeister said:

EDIT:

 

It also doesn't mention tuning so there is no actual confirmation of pitch information.

 

And it doesn't have a clef so it could be for bass, or as it shows 4 strings it could be for violin, cello, uke as well.

 

Well, you know it must be on a fretless instrument as you've got to play at fret 3.2 and fret 2.4. Some sort of microtonal experiment then.

[fretmeister]

2 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

Well, you know it must be on a fretless instrument as you've got to play at fret 3.2 and fret 2.4. Some sort of microtonal experiment then.

Or maybe fretless because of some sort of weird offset tuning system. Like the Buzz Feiten thing that was popular for 5 minutes.

[Stub Mandrel]

13 hours ago, fretmeister said:

It also doesn't mention tuning so there is no actual confirmation of pitch information.

 

I cropped the page quite a lot. All the missing information is on the original.

 

Most sight readers would struggle to interpret 'Portrait of Tracey' with all the notes played as harmonics.

 

To me the shortcomings of tab are lack of key information and not making chord inversions obvious.

 

As I am incapable of retaining anysight reading skills for more than a day or so, I will make the best of tab. Sadly most tab is inaccurate (but then so are many of the traditional scores for bass I have painstakingly worked out a note at a time).

[Stub Mandrel]

6 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

Well, you know it must be on a fretless instrument as you've got to play at fret 3.2 and fret 2.4. Some sort of microtonal experiment then.

 

No those are natural harmonics.

[Stub Mandrel]

10 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Thanks a weird thing with tab. It limits the player to someone else’s choice of position playing.

I once bought the official Muse bass book and although the notes were right, Hysteria’s tab was all string skipping instead of pedalling open strings. It made it much harder to play.

 

I suspect they used software to read the notation a human had written out and it just generated the lowest possible position for a note rather than considering playing ease.

 

Just search round. Both tabs are out there. The main riff is a doddle it's the chorus that's trickier.

[nekomatic]

22 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

As I am incapable of retaining anysight reading skills for more than a day or so, I will make the best of tab. 

I remain to be convinced that tab is any easier to sight read at tempo than notation. I reckon sight reading is a bit like ten-finger typing: you just need to force yourself to practice it, no matter how slow and painful that is, and you will get better. 
 

(It should be noted that I’m a much better typist than I am a sight reader.)

[Stub Mandrel]

4 minutes ago, nekomatic said:

I remain to be convinced that tab is any easier to sight read at tempo than notation. I reckon sight reading is a bit like ten-finger typing: you just need to force yourself to practice it, no matter how slow and painful that is, and you will get better. 
 

(It should be noted that I’m a much better typist than I am a sight reader.)

 

Nope I can't. I can pretty much sight read rhythm but I can't read pitch despite (checks watch) over fifty years of trying.

[OliverBlackman]

9 hours ago, nekomatic said:

I remain to be convinced that tab is any easier to sight read at tempo than notation. I reckon sight reading is a bit like ten-finger typing: you just need to force yourself to practice it, no matter how slow and painful that is, and you will get better. 
 

(It should be noted that I’m a much better typist than I am a sight reader.)

You can’t sight read tab though if there’s no rhythm markings! 

[solo4652]

Update:  After another rehearsal with the orchestra, I've decided it's not for me. Fish out of water. I asked for the rehearsal tracks and bass tabs for the last rehearsal to be sent in advance so I could practise at home. Some arrived, some didn't, which was frustrating. Also, to my ears, many of the backing tracks for rock songs really did not sound much like the original rock songs. They sounded like - errmm - an orchestra playing a rock song. All of that, together with my complete absence of experience of playing with an orchestra, meant it was clearly not the right place for me.

 

A drummer friend has contacted me about setting up a pop/soul/funk band from scratch. Drummer, bassist (me), keys player already in place, with a couple of female singers showing interest. Now then - that's my scene... 

[TimR]

23 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

Update:  After another rehearsal with the orchestra, I've decided it's not for me. Fish out of water. I asked for the rehearsal tracks and bass tabs for the last rehearsal to be sent in advance so I could practise at home. Some arrived, some didn't, which was frustrating. Also, to my ears, many of the backing tracks for rock songs really did not sound much like the original rock songs. They sounded like - errmm - an orchestra playing a rock song. All of that, together with my complete absence of experience of playing with an orchestra, meant it was clearly not the right place for me.

 

A drummer friend has contacted me about setting up a pop/soul/funk band from scratch. Drummer, bassist (me), keys player already in place, with a couple of female singers showing interest. Now then - that's my scene... 

 

The other instruments will all be sight reading. Unfortunately if you're not confident in being able to trip along making the odd mistake and getting the feel for a piece, it's going to be very hard. It's a new environment for you.  It's not like playing in a 3-5 piece band. 

[Huge Hands]

42 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

Also, to my ears, many of the backing tracks for rock songs really did not sound much like the original rock songs.

This was what I was alluding to in my earlier post.  I didn't know if it was for copyright reasons or arrangers for these bands don't think we can understand written funky lines, but you often get a lot of simplified/no feel basslines for modern stuff.   

 

With these kinds of groups I found out I inevitably ended up playing a lot of stuff I appreciated but didn't really like - and only got a few that I really looked forward to.  It means I am often well out of my comfort zone with them.   I am a traditional groover not particularly a comfortable widdler, so I don't enjoy any fiddly solo runs that get written for bass or the weird atonal stuff our MD often likes to play.   These parts might sound good on a tuba or properly bowed double bass, but not with my sausage fingers waggling around.

 

However, it was a great way to learn to read and then keep my reading up to speed, so I stick with it because of that.   I was lucky that when I joined they had an amazing tuba player who I could listen to which helped me understand what I was reading and I could just pretend to play with him at the hard bits!  It was only when he left 8 months later that I was left by myself and got properly dropped in the deep end!      

 

I am also lucky because as I said before, the MD lets me put my own spin on some things.   If that orchestra's arranger is passionate about it being played exactly as he wrote it and won't let you help it be more like the original, then it wouldn't be for me either.   

 

Good luck with your new band, hope it pans out.

[ahpook]

1 hour ago, solo4652 said:

Update:  After another rehearsal with the orchestra, I've decided it's not for me.

 

Good on you for giving it a go though. I know I'd have been pooping myself !

 

Hope the new band works out.

[fretmeister]

On 20/01/2025 at 23:48, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Just search round. Both tabs are out there. The main riff is a doddle it's the chorus that's trickier.

 

I know - I bought the book in about 2004/5 as I was going to a jam night and one of the scratch bands wanted to do it and it was quicker than transcribing it myself.

 

Wasn't as many tab sites 20 years ago!

[fretmeister]

On 20/01/2025 at 23:46, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I cropped the page quite a lot. All the missing information is on the original.

 

Most sight readers would struggle to interpret 'Portrait of Tracey' with all the notes played as harmonics.

 

To me the shortcomings of tab are lack of key information and not making chord inversions obvious.

 

As I am incapable of retaining anysight reading skills for more than a day or so, I will make the best of tab. Sadly most tab is inaccurate (but then so are many of the traditional scores for bass I have painstakingly worked out a note at a time).

 

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head there - until it becomes a genuine second language it needs practice every day. It's a perishable skill.

But so is reading English if you have enough time away from it.

 

It's also why any teacher will say "10 minutes a day" rather than 3 hours on a Saturday. 10 mins a day is only 70 mins a week, but it is far more effective doing short daily practice so the brain gets programmed with it properly.

[TimR]

55 minutes ago, Huge Hands said:

I am also lucky because as I said before, the MD lets me put my own spin on some things.   If that orchestra's arranger is passionate about it being played exactly as he wrote it and won't let you help it be more like the original, then it wouldn't be for me either.   

 

Usually there is "swing" written at the top by the arranger. Then it's up to the MD to get the band to swing by instructing during rehearsals. 

 

If the MD/conducter doesn't know how to groove then the band won't.

[fretmeister]

2 hours ago, solo4652 said:

Update:  After another rehearsal with the orchestra, I've decided it's not for me. Fish out of water. I asked for the rehearsal tracks and bass tabs for the last rehearsal to be sent in advance so I could practise at home. Some arrived, some didn't, which was frustrating. Also, to my ears, many of the backing tracks for rock songs really did not sound much like the original rock songs. They sounded like - errmm - an orchestra playing a rock song. All of that, together with my complete absence of experience of playing with an orchestra, meant it was clearly not the right place for me.

 

A drummer friend has contacted me about setting up a pop/soul/funk band from scratch. Drummer, bassist (me), keys player already in place, with a couple of female singers showing interest. Now then - that's my scene... 

 

 

That's what most community orchestras are like - they often get a wide range of instruments to deal with - lots of them brass or reed instruments so they naturally end up sounding like an orchestra or a jazz big band.

 

I still remember my first rehearsal with one - a jazz band. Seven Nation Army to start - nice and easy even though it was in a different key.

 

Then it was Stevie Wonder (in a different key and with a completely jazzed up middle section) and things started to fall apart. Not helped by the look I got from an 11 year old (yes, really) trumpet player who was already Grade 8 and looking to study at a conservatoire already.

 

I finally quit last summer after a total of 12 years there in different ensembles, with about 7 years in the Jazz Band.

 

I learned a huge amount. I only started because my kids wanted to attend and it wasn't worth driving home and then back again to collect them.

[TorturedSaints]

This thread seems to explain why I found it so difficult to find a replacement for myself!  As I posted in another thread here a few weeks ago:

 

Quote

I’ve been trying to find my replacement for 11 months for one of the 3 concert (wind) bands I play with.  Adverts on here, gumtree FB etc.  Only one or two people got in touch, but never made it to rehearsal with a bass - one did turn up to listen, but didn’t want to play as he said his reading wasn’t up to it. Nobody who can read, play DB or EUB as well as electric, who can make weekly rehearsals, follow a conductor and pay £10/month subs has subsequently got in touch.   However, luckily the circumstances that meant I wouldn’t be able to make rehearsals and concerts haven’t yet happened, so I’m still playing with that band! 
So yes, it looks like I’m irreplaceable 🤣🤣 Not actively looking for my replacement now, but never say never.

It looks like from all the comments above that it’s a bit of a niche “ask” 😀

[fretmeister]

57 minutes ago, TorturedSaints said:

This thread seems to explain why I found it so difficult to find a replacement for myself!  As I posted in another thread here a few weeks ago:

 

It looks like from all the comments above that it’s a bit of a niche “ask” 😀

 

 

That sounds fun to me.... but it's about 400 miles away!  

[TimR]

1 hour ago, TorturedSaints said:

This thread seems to explain why I found it so difficult to find a replacement for myself!  As I posted in another thread here a few weeks ago:

 

It looks like from all the comments above that it’s a bit of a niche “ask” 😀

 

I think people are scared of the 'reading' aspect. 

 

I've found playing bass in concert bands is actually fairly simple and you can feel your way through pieces initially not playing every single note.

 

Work out what the key signature is. Then follow the lines approximately while staying in that key. Concentrate on the rhythms, which tend to be very similar for each piece, or stick to one note per bar. 

 

Record the rehearsals yourself for your your home practice.

 

The band leader will cut you some slack if you're upfront from the start.  

Edited 2 hours ago by TimR

[Stub Mandrel]

12 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

You can’t sight read tab though if there’s no rhythm markings! 

 

Not entirely true, as there are loosely applied conventions about laying out the tab to indicate note length. But some tab does have them.

[Stub Mandrel]

5 hours ago, fretmeister said:

It's also why any teacher will say "10 minutes a day" rather than 3 hours on a Saturday. 10 mins a day is only 70 mins a week, but it is far more effective doing short daily practice so the brain gets programmed with it properly.

 

I've tried many approaches. I'm used to learning skills I find difficult and putting in the effort. Apart from sports requiring good balance skills (skateboarding, skating) and things beyond my physique (I'm endurance not sprint) sight-reading is the one thing I really can't crack, even with formal lessons. I understand the theory, it's just the note positions mean nothing to me, I believe my condition is termed dysmusia and has nothing to do with pitch skills (I don't't have perfect pitch, but I can whistle an A or a C within a few tens of cents).