Orchestra bass tabs. Bit confused here...

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

 

Do you know the fretboard (or at least all strings up to 7th fret) inside out.

 

If someone was to say play C# could you immediately put your finger on it (or them) without thinking?

 

If not, then that's the first thing you need to do before even looking at the dots. Using tabs won't ever get you there.

 

I think music teachers will try and teach you "this dot is this fret on this string", which I think might not help you. 

 

 

 

Err... yes. Of course, I know the fretboard. I know lots of scales and modes, and I know lots of intervals, chords and their inversions. All makes me a better player. Not sure what the dots would do other than make it easier to play from notation.

 

Doesn't help with the dots.

 

Thank you for your helpful guidance.

[Downunderwonder]

4 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Err... yes. Of course, I know the fretboard. I know lots of scales and modes, and I know lots of intervals, chords and their inversions. All makes me a better player. Not sure what the dots would do other than make it easier to play from notation.

 

Doesn't help with the dots.

 

Thank you for your helpful guidance.

With that much theory you are streets ahead of me. But I can read dots.

 

I don't actually read the dots though. I think this may be where you are at a disconnect.

 

I read the accidentals and the rhythm pattern. The accidentals tell me I have work to do to escape the scale finger pattern and follow the funky chord.

 

A good teacher should be able to take all your known theory and use that to help you see the patterns in the dots. I reckon you would become a reading machine once the penny drops 

[Stub Mandrel]

8 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

With that much theory you are streets ahead of me. But I can read dots.

 

I don't actually read the dots though. I think this may be where you are at a disconnect.

 

I read the accidentals and the rhythm pattern. The accidentals tell me I have work to do to escape the scale finger pattern and follow the funky chord.

 

A good teacher should be able to take all your known theory and use that to help you see the patterns in the dots. I reckon you would become a reading machine once the penny drops 

 

I've slways hoped that, but even Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is beyond my pay grade.

 

I think it's because notation is so illogical. Dots are neither always the same note nor the same degree of a scale. If the staff represented doh-re-mi etc. you could then easily read what you are doing and transpose into thecrequired key. Each chord would have the same symbols in the same place regardless of key. 

[nekomatic]

16 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I understand the theory, it's just the note positions mean nothing to me, I believe my condition is termed dysmusia and has nothing to do with pitch skills (I don't't have perfect pitch, but I can whistle an A or a C within a few tens of cents).

 

Dyslexia and dyscalculia are recognised conditions and I believe we're getting past the assumption that people who have them 'just aren't trying hard enough' or 'just haven't been taught properly', so it would be no surprise that a similar thing exists for musical notation.

 

It's intriguing that you seem to get this for notation but not for tab. But then the brain is an intriguing and incompletely understood thing.

[TimR]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I've slways hoped that, but even Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is beyond my pay grade.

 

I think it's because notation is so illogical. Dots are neither always the same note nor the same degree of a scale. If the staff represented doh-re-mi etc. you could then easily read what you are doing and transpose into thecrequired key. Each chord would have the same symbols in the same place regardless of key. 

 

I think you may not be understanding the key signature element. 

 

I don't worry too much about which individual notes are sharp of flat.

 

Just if there are no sharps of flats then it's C. If there's one sharp then it's in G major. Two sharps D... I don't worry too much about relative minors when reading. 

 

If there's one sharp then all the notes on the stave will be just notes in the G major scale and the intervals amd accidentals (sharps/flats) will take care of themselves as long as you stay in G. 

First line G(root), second line B (3rd), third line D (5th). That's your G major triad. The others are very similar.

 

Then its just a case of learning the notes on the stave. E is the ledger line below the staff, then A is first space, D is 3rd line and G is 4th space. Start with them until those 4 notes are cemented. 

 

There are other ways. But one note at a time is the best way to learn them. 

 

 

Edited January 23 by TimR

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, TimR said:

 

I think you may not be understanding the key signature element. 

 

I don't worry too much about which individual notes are sharp of flat.

 

Just if there are no sharps of flats then it's C. If there's one sharp then it's in G major. Two sharps D... I don't worry too much about relative minors when reading. 

 

If there's one sharp then all the notes on the stave will be just notes in the G major scale and the intervals amd accidentals (sharps/flats) will take care of themselves as long as you stay in G. 

First line G(root), second line B (3rd), third line D (5th). That's your G major triad. The others are very similar.

 

Then its just a case of learning the notes on the stave. E is the ledger line below the staff, then A is first space, D is 3rd line and G is 4th space. Start with them until those 4 notes are cemented. 

 

There are other ways. But one note at a time is the best way to learn them. 

 

 

 

Utterly illogical to me. If the lines represented the seven degrees of the major scale (and their repeats) then each triad in the major scale (for example) would always appear in the same place. Every extended chord and inversion woudl have a single form, always starting on the same line or space. Not on different lines or spaces depending on the key signature. I mean, the same set of dots can mean a major or minor chord depending on ten key signature!  I'm not particularly interested if I'm playing in C or Bb, except for being aware of the root.  I suppose I just mean notating everything into C and transposing. That would work better with how may brain understands music. After all, the bass is one of the easiest instruments to transpose on.

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, TimR said:

Just if there are no sharps of flats then it's C. If there's one sharp then it's in G major. Two sharps D... I don't worry too much about relative minors when reading. 

 

If there's one sharp then all the notes on the stave will be just notes in the G major scale and the intervals amd accidentals (sharps/flats) will take care of themselves as long as you stay in G. 

First line G(root), second line B (3rd), third line D (5th). That's your G major triad. The others are very similar.

 

Then its just a case of learning the notes on the stave. E is the ledger line below the staff, then A is first space, D is 3rd line and G is 4th space. Start with them until those 4 notes are cemented. 

 

Exactly as I learnt in school over fifty years ago then?  It's easy to say learn the bloody letters.

 

I completely understand how notation works. But I can only recognise four notes on the treble clef by sight, middle C, G, A and B, and that takes a few moments. Any others I have to mentally work them out. Add in any accidentals and I'm completely lost. Some people can't seem to grasp that I understand HOW it works, it's the 'learning the notes on the stave' bit that completely fails to stick. In singing lessons, I could bluff by looking at how much each successive note moved up or down and approximating the interval, as my voice naturally stayed in key. It's not 100% reliable and doesn't work very well (for me) on an instrument.

 

And yes, I can just about sight read basic tab; I even play notes in more comfortable positions (I prefer going across the strings rather than up and down) on the fly.

[zbd1960]

As someone who has 'come across' from the 'other side' I'll add some thoughts. 

 

I'm assuming we're dealing with some sort of community orchestra with assorted strings, woodwind, brass, and percussion. Most community groups like this are people's first foray into group music making. There are some issues facing noobs: early stage string players are going to want to play in keys between 2 flats and 2 sharps, so Bb, F, C, G, and D major (and associated minors). Wind and brass instruments have different challenges. If they play C instruments (e.g. flute, oboe, bassoon) they'll be happy with the same keys. Most orchestral transposing instruments (e.g. clarinet, trumpet) are in Bb and they prefer flat keys since for example D maj concert means they'll be playing in E maj - 4 sharps. Community orchestras will probably have saxes as well and alto and baritone are Eb instruments, so that D major is now B major - 5 sharps. French horn players inhabit a different universe. 

 

This is why arrangements for such groups will mean that they are probably not in the original keys.   

 

An orchestral 'string bass' part is going to be for standard bass tuning.

 

In the early stages, arrangements are going to be simplified and that will include the rhythms used as well as the keys.

 

When I started playing cello and sax in my 50s, I joined a community orchestra, so I encountered all of the above. Even as a beginner I soon found we were playing film or musical theatre medleys which for cello could be in 4 or 5 flats (Ab and Db for example) or 4 sharps. For alto sax, an Eb instrument, if the strings were in 3 sharps - I was in 6...

 

Added challenge as a cellist (also bassoons and trombones): we often have to play in tenor clef (C4 clef).

 

If this is all new, then it is going to be disconcerting until you adjust to it. You have to accept that in the early stages you will be playing simplified arrangements and they may not 'sound right'. Novice brass/wind players tend to be able to play more complex music much quicker than string players as they don't have the added challenge of managing a bow as well as learning fingering.      

[TimR]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Utterly illogical to me. If the lines represented the seven degrees of the major scale (and their repeats) then each triad in the major scale (for example) would always appear in the same place. Every extended chord and inversion woudl have a single form, always starting on the same line or space. Not on different lines or spaces depending on the key signature. I mean, the same set of dots can mean a major or minor chord depending on ten key signature!  I'm not particularly interested if I'm playing in C or Bb, except for being aware of the root.  I suppose I just mean notating everything into C and transposing. That would work better with how may brain understands music. After all, the bass is one of the easiest instruments to transpose on.

 

The stave is designed for piano. 

 

The lines and spaces represent the 7 degrees of the C major scale. That's why treble clef starts on middle C, the ledger line below the staff and the ledger line above the bass clef.

 

The first note to recognise on the bass clef is E, which can only be played in one place. Open E string. 

 

 

[Downunderwonder]

7 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Dots are neither always the same note nor the same degree of a scale

True enough. Yet you understand the concept of keys, and key signatures that accompany the staff and dots? The dot height is only the raw note name but it is consistent until some Ahole starts with the C flats and A double flats.

 

Look on the bright side.There are only 12 notes and most bass is scored between the low E and the lower F# on the G string. The key of the tune determines how those notes are scored. No C flats or A double flats!

 

You are aware that a major scale has its relative minor pairing using identical  written scale with a different starting note.

 

Children initially learn playing very simple tunes and practicing to books of written out scales. My teacher was apt to remind me that pieces are only mixed up scales.

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

True enough. Yet you understand the concept of keys, and key signatures that accompany the staff and dots? The dot height is only the raw note name but it is consistent until some Ahole starts with the C flats and A double flats.

 

Look on the bright side.There are only 12 notes and most bass is scored between the low E and the lower F# on the G string. The key of the tune determines how those notes are scored. No C flats or A double flats!

 

You are aware that a major scale has its relative minor pairing using identical  written scale with a different starting note.

 

Children initially learn playing very simple tunes and practicing to books of written out scales. My teacher was apt to remind me that pieces are only mixed up scales.

 

Like I say I understand the theory. I just can't relate dots to notes in real time.

 

I almost get an anxiety attack when I see the bass clef, because I think of all the effort I've wasted on the treble clef to no benefit.

[Downunderwonder]

46 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I almost get an anxiety attack when I see the bass clef, because I think of all the effort I've wasted on the treble clef to no benefit.

Pretty much me when I went to read bass after learning it by ear as one does. The benefit was entirely in being able to follow along the tune structure and general direction of the line as I bumbled along.

 

You don't have to read every note individually! You would have to be a way better reader than me to even try. I think most read the gist like me because it's simply not possible. Doesn't mean you can't 'read' it and play it.

 

To this day I am relying on hearing the chord to inform my fingers as much as catching up with the accidentals with my eyes. 

[zbd1960]

Reading music is like learning to read - it's not an instant process. As children we probably all had similar experiences of being taught what letters looked like, how they sounded in various contexts. For reading, started with simple books - not Tolstoy or Conrad... It's the same with music. When I was about 11 and started to learn to read music properly at school it took a while. I started to borrow miniature scores from the local library and then try to follow the cello line whilst listening to it.

 

Something I'd recommend to people is to get used to just reading along whilst listening. You can download scores or individual parts for most classical music that is out of copyright from IMSLP. Just being able to follow along helps a lot.

 

In amateur orchestras, string players will often "busk" the tricky passages until they've got their heads and fingers around them. Got a passage of lots of semi-quavers? Simplify it and maybe only play the start of each group of 4 or each quaver... I was faced with sight-reading this at the first rehearsal of the new term last week. Can I play some of it at sight? Yes. Can I play all of it at sight? No. You'll notice it spends a lot of time in the tenor clef for added entertainment value. It's the end of the Romeo an dJuliet overture by Tchaikovsky.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 24 by zbd1960

[TimR]

1 hour ago, zbd1960 said:

Got a passage of lots of semi-quavers? Simplify it and maybe only play the start of each group of 4 or each quaver...

 

With bass it's often even easier. Just hit the first note of each bar. 

[Huge Hands]

For me, being dropped in the deep end and allowed to bumble along listening to the pieces while I learned was the only way it worked.   I had bought some notation books in the past and tried to work it out by myself (I had a head start because I had played trombone in my school brass band reading treble clef) but looking at the books it didn't stick with me either.

 

Bearing mind you are joining a band where you don't know anyone, I did initially have to suffer the looks of disdain from a few musical snobs in the band, but on the whole most either couldn't tell the difference, or were very supportive.

 

If you did reconsider having a crack at it, I guess the main thing to look for is to whether you feel the MD and band would be patient enough to have you make mistakes and "learn on the job".  As others have said, these bands often have varying skill levels and may just have been happy to find you, as the reading bit puts a lot of people off.

 

It will also be down to whether you can keep a lid on your own anxieties and personal feelings of "I'm not good enough" which I got a lot (and still do).  Believe you me, if I get given a new piece with any semiquavers in it, I still shake with dread every time! (Or quaver triplets with rests in them)....

 

I remember once years ago before I tried to read myself, asking a bass player in a cabaret band how he managed to sight read visiting act's arrangements on gigs, especially the rhythmic patterns and fiddly bits.  He said you begin to recognise common patterns in pieces of music which means you can anticipate it coming better without specifically counting or reading in detail.

 

I think he is right there - it certainly gets a bit easier the more you do it.   

[Downunderwonder]

9 hours ago, Huge Hands said:

whether you feel the MD and band would be patient enough to have you make mistakes and "learn on the job".

There’s a clue that MD is desperate enough for bass action, any bass action, that he provides Tab to go with his notation to rope in non readers.

 

I say go for it. The wrong note at the right time generally goes completely unnoticed. Everyone is too busy getting their own stuff under control.