Trump's tariff wars...long post.

[martthebass]

Using a Star Trek analogy I believe the US would like to be seen as the Federation whereas in actuality they are more akin to the Ferengi……

[prowla]

10 minutes ago, LowB_FTW said:

Because of the impending death of critical thinking.

Technology is a double-edged sword for this as it disseminates more information than ever before to us, but that is information overload, and as such the ability to focus on lengthy complex texts is diminishing, simply because we have to wade through so much guff to get to the crux of the matter.

The fact a lot of this stuff is now residing behind paywalls isn't helpful either.

People know who they like, and if a person of influence says something, who are you to argue against them? And if you do argue the point you just get shouted down, so really, what's the point?

Critical thinking is on life support, and it's not gonna get any better.

 

All of this is IMO.

 

Mark

There's a difference between data and information.

[LowB_FTW]

7 minutes ago, prowla said:

There's a difference between data and information.

And how does one sort one from the other? Oh yeah, critical thinking.

The distinction you make might be more obvious to you and me, and some others here, but it's not so obvious to a lot of people.

I see this demonstrated daily in comments sections of news stories and articles.

 

Mark

[prowla]

5 minutes ago, LowB_FTW said:

And how does one sort one from the other? Oh yeah, critical thinking.

The distinction you make might be more obvious to you and me, and some others here, but it's not so obvious to a lot of people.

I see this demonstrated daily in comments sections of news stories and articles.

 

Mark

Yep - sometimes it’s a struggle to separate the wheat from the chaff. 
There’s also often an intolerance when people draw different inferences from the same data, typically expressed by berating or typecasting the perceived offender. 

Edited Wednesday at 23:15 by prowla

[Dad3353]

All of these comments and opinions bring to mind the works of John Aubrey, collected in 'Brief Lives', a classic, giving a very down-to-earth view of contemporary Elizabethan times, as seen from his daily notes. One recognises easily enough the same tribulations, the same 'fears', doubts and 'certainties' as today (with the possible exception of an impending Climate Catastrophe, which was not much of an issue then, apparently...). The same remarks about political figures, the Youf of his day, the degradation of public manners and Education going to Pot; the list is long. Luckily enough it's a darned good read, with many a chuckle or outright belly laugh at the, to us, quaint medical practices of the day, but it puts a bit of perspective on the current grumblings about how it's all going wrong. T'was the same, for those that read Classics, in the days of Pliny, of course, or Plato, but Aubrey is a much lighter read. Highly recommended as a partial cure for those looking too earnestly at today's frantic spin. Refreshing. Just sayin'. 

[peteb]

36 minutes ago, prowla said:

 

I don't know - how many did vote because of that?

 

Lots and lots of people voted leave because of that. Not necessarily because they believed it was true, but because they liked the audacious nature of the lie and made them feel good to see that the people that they had come to blame for their falling living standards were outraged by the blatant untruth on the side of a bus.

 

Of course, it is difficult to explain to people with no idea how the economy works that the real reason was the money pumped into the banking system following the 2008 crisis went to the very wealthy, rather to them as intended. It was easier to blame foreigners and overly-cautious politicians who should have stopped this from happening, rather than those who profiteered from the situation and opportunist fringe politicians with an eye for the main chance. It didn't help that a lot of people didn't really believe that Brexit would actually happen until it was too late, so many saw it as a 'free hit' to make a protest about a useless government! 

 

[Downunderwonder]

The NZ UK High Commisioner told it like it is about Trump at a meeting of Euro diplomats yesterday. Got sacked today as diplomats are obligated to be diplomatic. Pity.

[tegs07]

9 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

All of these comments and opinions bring to mind the works of John Aubrey, collected in 'Brief Lives', a classic, giving a very down-to-earth view of contemporary Elizabethan times, as seen from his daily notes. One recognises easily enough the same tribulations, the same 'fears', doubts and 'certainties' as today (with the possible exception of an impending Climate Catastrophe, which was not much of an issue then, apparently...). The same remarks about political figures, the Youf of his day, the degradation of public manners and Education going to Pot; the list is long. Luckily enough it's a darned good read, with many a chuckle or outright belly laugh at the, to us, quaint medical practices of the day, but it puts a bit of perspective on the current grumblings about how it's all going wrong. T'was the same, for those that read Classics, in the days of Pliny, of course, or Plato, but Aubrey is a much lighter read. Highly recommended as a partial cure for those looking too earnestly at today's frantic spin. Refreshing. Just sayin'. 

That’s the fascinating thing about history. The themes, fears and challenges echo through the centuries. However even a cursory glance at the pages reveal pivotal moments when quiet diplomacy and careful cooperation and planning play a key role in determining the future. That moment for Europe was four years ago during Trump’s first term where all the turmoil and chaos on the world stage that we are currently living through was broadcast loud and clear. It was evident in the response and aftermath of the great financial crisis of 2008 and the populist movement that turned western politics from the centre path towards a resurgence of right wing nationalism.

 

European leaders have finally woken up to the threat and the challenges that they are facing and so far appear to be doing so in a coordinated and dignified manner. IMO this is the most significant change I have witnessed in my lifetime. It will be in the history books and studied by future generations and is worthy of discussion. Hopefully the outcome will be favourable as this is as much of an opportunity as it is a threat.

[Mrbigstuff]

Sounds like Zelensky has backtracked and wants to sign trump’s deal. Can’t help but feel this will empower the US to continue their strategy of owning global natural resources and Ukraine will be simply handed over to Russia once their resources dry up.

[tegs07]

24 minutes ago, Mrbigstuff said:

Sounds like Zelensky has backtracked and wants to sign trump’s deal. Can’t help but feel this will empower the US to continue their strategy of owning global natural resources and Ukraine will be simply handed over to Russia once their resources dry up.

It might take a while. Team Tr*mp are busy threatening Gaza with imminent destruction.

 

Edit: Add this brewing crisis to the mix and the USA could potentially get dragged into a whole host of problems:

 

US and Israel reject Arab alternative to Trump's Gaza plan https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn7vd4pnxx3o

Edited Thursday at 09:06 by tegs07

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Mrbigstuff said:

 Can’t help but feel this will empower the US to continue their strategy of owning global natural resources and Ukraine will be simply handed over to Russia once their resources dry up.

 

It will take so long to get any resources from this even if they start today, it shouldn't matter.

 

2 hours ago, tegs07 said:

US and Israel reject Arab alternative to Trump's Gaza plan https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn7vd4pnxx3o

 

I am guessing because it didn't have a 'uge gold statue of trump in them?

[tegs07]

1 minute ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I am guessing because it didn't have a 'uge gold statue of trump in them?

Indeed they objected to the colour scheme preferring the day glow orange 

[Agent 00Soul]

12 hours ago, martthebass said:

Using a Star Trek analogy I believe the US would like to be seen as the Federation whereas in actuality they are more akin to the Ferengi……

 

It's like the interrogator of Al Queda members at Guantanamo said 20 years ago: everyone thinks they are being Luke and Han.  For example, the EU also talks about itself and it's mission as if it were Star Trek's Federation.  But it's just as legit to see it as the world's biggest, richest white privilege club founded by the world's most brutal one-time colonial powers.  And no greater authority than Michael Caine himself once described the US as thinking of itself as Superman, but it's really Batman.

[peteb]

15 minutes ago, Agent 00Soul said:

 

It's like the interrogator of Al Queda members at Guantanamo said 20 years ago: everyone thinks they are being Luke and Han.  For example, the EU also talks about itself and it's mission as if it were Star Trek's Federation.  But it's just as legit to see it as the world's biggest, richest white privilege club founded by the world's most brutal one-time colonial powers.  And no greater authority than Michael Caine himself once described the US as thinking of itself as Superman, but it's really Batman.

 

I think that it's more accurate to say the Joker these days...! 

 

[Agent 00Soul]

40 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

I think that it's more accurate to say the Joker these days...! 

 

 

That's true actually.  Cold War/post-Cold War US was Batman.  Trump is definitely the Joker - disruption and chaos for are his jam.

[tauzero]

European countries are now starting to move towards Sky Shield - European (non-Ukrainian) fighter planes manned by European (ditto) pilots enforcing an aerial truce. If that happens, maybe Zelenskyy will stop trying to get Trump onside.

 

Of course, there's no reason that Ukraine shouldn't take as little notice of agreements and contracts as Russia or the USA.

[steantval]

Maybe comrade Trump on his next regular phone call to his pal Putin should ask why a hotel was bombed in Ukraine last night, resulting in the deaths of four innocent people. ☹️

[Agent 00Soul]

One thing has got me shaking my head a bit. During the first Gulf War, to get Saddam out of Kuwait, the feeling in the UK, at least among my 20-something cohort, was that this was the US getting involved where it shouldn’t trying to assist a small country invaded by its bigger, dictatorial neighbour. (And a chance to get first dibs on Kuwait and Saudi’ resources.)  The feeling now is the opposite.  What’s the difference? Is it because it’s now Europe not the Middle East?  White people instead of brown? Not Muslim?  I’m genuinely curious. Not sure there is a definitive answer. 

 

Edited Thursday at 14:17 by Agent 00Soul

[Doctor J]

The US had really wealthy friends in neighbouring countries, whose money talks a lot. Russia, unlike Iraq, poses an existential threat to the west.

[tegs07]

13 minutes ago, Agent 00Soul said:

One thing has got me shaking my head a bit. During the first Gulf War, to get Saddam out of Kuwait, the feeling in the UK, at least among my 20-something cohort, was that this was the US getting involved where it shouldn’t trying to assist a small country invaded by its bigger, dictatorial neighbour. (And a chance to get first dibs on Kuwait and Saudi’ resources.)  The feeling now is the opposite.  What’s the difference? Is it because it’s now Europe not the Middle East?  White people instead of brown? Not Muslim?  I’m genuinely curious. Not sure there is a definitive answer. 

 

Trump has decided that the USA isn’t going to interfere in foreign affairs. Europe is responsible for its own security, NATO is past its sell by date and the USA should focus on its internal economic problems and the threat of China.

 

However somewhat lost in translation is Russia has a no limits agreement with China and links to North Korea. The USA is stoking middle east tensions and directly interfering in their internal affairs and policies.

He also seems to forget that access to NATO is vital for logistics and intelligence gathering (UK, Canada and NATO partners Australia in particular).

He is also involved in a serious trade war and is laying off thousands of workers. Just a complete walking contradiction. 

 

Edited Thursday at 14:28 by tegs07

[Agent 00Soul]

6 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Just a complete walking contradiction. 

 

Absolutely. And it’s really got me confused. What should the US be doing about all these issues and is it what his voters want?

[Agent 00Soul]

This will work as well as Labour trying to embrace Reform policies

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/dems-unveil-new-plan-to-beat-maga-more-gun-shows-and-less-aoc/

[tegs07]

8 minutes ago, Agent 00Soul said:

Absolutely. And it’s really got me confused. What should the US be doing about all these issues and is it what his voters want?

No idea what the USA should be doing. It’s a complex situation requiring multi-agency cooperation and international alliances over a number of years. 

Edited Thursday at 14:41 by tegs07

[Count Bassy]

6 hours ago, Mrbigstuff said:

Sounds like Zelensky has backtracked and wants to sign trump’s deal. Can’t help but feel this will empower the US to continue their strategy of owning global natural resources and Ukraine will be simply handed over to Russia once their resources dry up.

I dare say that Trump has an agreement with Putin re the minerals, should Ukraine end up Russian.

[peteb]

18 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Trump has decided that the USA isn’t going to interfere in foreign affairs. Europe is responsible for its own security, NATO is past its sell by date and the USA should focus on its internal economic problems and the threat of China.

 

However somewhat lost in translation is Russia has a no limits agreement with China and links to North Korea. The USA is stoking middle east tensions and directly interfering in their internal affairs and policies.

He also seems to forget that access to NATO is vital for logistics and intelligence gathering (UK, Canada and NATO partners Australia in particular).

He is also involved in a serious trade war and is laying off thousands of workers. Just a complete walking contradiction. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Agent 00Soul said:

Absolutely. And it’s really got me confused. What should the US be doing about all these issues and is it what his voters want?

 

I think that a lot of people are trying to look at this way in a logical way when Trump isn't even trying to act in a logical way. 

 

The real aim internally is to side-line the democratic process and to establish an oligarchy beholden to him personally. Despite his followers chanting Trump 2028, he knows that it is highly unlikely that he will be able to run for POTUS again, so he doesn't need the MAGA followers anymore to a large extent. Chaos, a 'cost of living crisis', inflation and stock market crashes will only help his backers to buy up even more of the economy. He has two years until the midterms to change things permanently to achieve this. 

 

Externally, again chaos is the name of the game to enable him to re-establish America as the pre-dominant superpower and to enrich his billionaire benefactors. This is obviously a dangerous game, as he is forcing America's biggest allies against them and really only enabling China to eventually claim the position as the world's major power, but in the short-term he will try to force the world to give him what he wants. There is also the narcissistic aim of establishing himself as the most famous President of the modern area, if not of all time. People are going to be talking about Trump for centuries and I don't think that he really cares if it will be all bad, as long as he is remembered more than his predecessors !