Trump's tariff wars...long post.

[cetera]

Interesting words from amp/cab maker Phil Jones:

 

"Why It’s Impossible to Manufacture Bass Amplifiers & Loudspeakers in the U.S. Without China—A Reality Check
By Me: Phil Jones, Founder of Phil Jones Bass

 

With over 40 years of experience in amplifier and loudspeaker manufacturing, having owned factories in the UK, the U.S., and now China, I have witnessed firsthand the global shift in production. The idea of manufacturing amplifiers and loudspeakers entirely in the United States—without relying on China—is not just unrealistic, it’s economically impossible. And even if someone attempted it, the final price would be nearly five times higher than the same product made in China or Southeast Asia.

 

The Industry Shift: Why Manufacturing Left the U.S.

Since the early 1990s, the loudspeaker and amplifier industry has gradually relocated from the U.S. and Europe to Southeast Asia. Initially, production shifted to Taiwan and Thailand, but today, China dominates. The reason is simple: China built an unmatched supply chain, workforce, and cost-efficiency that no Western country can compete with.

In the past, speaker manufacturers in the U.S. could still source components domestically. There were factories producing cones, voice coils, magnet assemblies, steel frames, and crossovers. But over the years, these facilities shut down because they couldn’t compete with the lower costs of overseas production. Today, virtually every speaker and amplifier company—regardless of where they are "assembled"—depends on Chinese-made components.

 

What Would It Take to Make a 100% American-Made Amplifier?

If you were to start a fully domestic amplifier and loudspeaker production facility in the U.S., you’d face insurmountable obstacles:

 

1. Raw Material Sourcing is Impossible Without China

Neodymium Magnets: China controls 90% of the world’s neodymium supply, which is critical for high-performance loudspeakers.

Steel & Aluminum: Used in speaker frames and amplifier chassis, these materials are cheaper in China due to government subsidies and high domestic production.

Paper Cones: Most cone paper pulp comes from Southeast Asia. No U.S. company produces high-performance speaker cones anymore.

 

2. Electronic Components Are Made in Asia

PCBs (Printed Circuit Boards): Nearly all amplifier PCBs come from China or Taiwan. There is no cost-effective alternative in the U.S.

Capacitors, Resistors, and Semiconductors: Essential amplifier components, all mass-produced in Asia.

Wiring, Connectors, and Power Supplies: Even the smallest parts—like jacks, power switches, and wiring harnesses—are imported.

 

3. Labor Costs Would Skyrocket

In China, skilled factory workers earn between $500-$800 per month. In the U.S., that same job would cost $3,000-$4,000 per month, plus healthcare and benefits.

Assembly line automation in the U.S. would cost millions in investment—still unable to compete with the highly skilled yet affordable workforce in Asia.

 

4. Factory Setup Would Be Astronomically Expensive

China already has fully developed speaker and amplifier factories with optimized processes.

A new U.S. factory would require hundreds of millions in infrastructure costs. The break-even point would take decades.

 

The Cost Reality—Five Times More Expensive

Let’s take an amplifier that sells for $1,000 today when manufactured in China. If it were made in the U.S., here’s how costs would change:

"If an amplifier sells for $1,000 when manufactured in China, producing the exact same product in the U.S. would drastically increase costs. The raw materials, such as magnets and steel, would rise from around $100 to $250 or more. The cost of PCBs and electronic components, which are predominantly made in Asia, would jump from $150 to over $400. Speaker components like cones, voice coils, and frames would go from $200 to $600 or more since there is no longer any domestic supply chain for these parts. Labor and assembly costs would surge from $50 in China to over $300 in the U.S., and factory overhead would increase from $100 to at least $500 due to higher wages, regulations, and operational expenses. In the end, a product that costs $600 to produce in China would cost over $2,000 to make in the U.S., which means the final retail price would rise from $1,000 to somewhere between $3,500 and $5,000—making it completely unviable for the average musician.

This means that a product which sells for $1,000 when made in China would likely cost $3,500 to $5,000 if made in the U.S. No consumer is going to pay that kind of premium for an identical product.

 

What About Tariffs? Do They Help?

Some believe that tariffs imposed on Chinese goods will bring manufacturing back to the U.S. That is a complete misunderstanding of how the industry works.

Tariffs don’t rebuild factories—they just make products more expensive for consumers.

U.S. manufacturers still need Chinese components, even if tariffs are added.

If tariffs make Chinese production too costly, companies will simply move to Vietnam, Indonesia, or Mexico—not the U.S.

 

The MAGA Myth: “I Only Buy American”

Many Americans, particularly in the MAGA crowd, claim they refuse to buy "Chinese crap" and only support U.S. products. The reality? Even the most “American” brands rely on China.

Harley-Davidson: Uses Chinese-made wiring, electronics, and even some engine components.

Ford & GM: Source critical parts from China, from semiconductors to brake components.

Gibson & Fender: Even their “Made in USA” guitars use imported tuning machines, bridges, and electronics.

It is simply impossible to buy a fully American-made product unless it is a boutique, high-priced item with limited production.

 

Final Thoughts: The Future of Manufacturing

China is not just a low-cost labor market—it has developed the most advanced supply chain infrastructure in the world. No Western country can compete at the same scale and efficiency.

While there will always be niche U.S. manufacturers assembling products domestically, mass production of loudspeakers and amplifiers will never return to America. The cost difference is too high, the industry expertise is long gone, and no amount of tariffs or political rhetoric can change that.

As a manufacturer who has run factories in multiple countries, I can say with certainty:

China is the present and future of loudspeaker and amplifier production.

If you want high-quality products at reasonable prices, you have to accept that they will be made overseas.

A fully American-made amplifier would be unaffordable for the average consumer.

 

This is not about politics—it’s about economic reality."

Edited March 13 by cetera

[Agent 00Soul]

Don’t forget that a lot of Trump supporters, especially the young who are more ideological, don’t expect/want any of this to work. As @tegs07 said, it’s very nihilistic. The whole idea is the system collapses and they get to build a new system on the ruins. People like Steve Bannon put this in a more far-right plan. But a generation of people were raised with the Silicon Valley idea of move “move fast and break things” and it must have trickled down into the mainstream idea that a system they see as unfixably broken just needs to be trashed at this point. 

[tegs07]

3 minutes ago, Agent 00Soul said:

Don’t forget that a lot of Trump supporters, especially the young who are more ideological, don’t expect/want any of this to work. As @tegs07 said, it’s very nihilistic. The whole idea is the system collapses and they get to build a new system on the ruins. People like Steve Bannon put this in a more far-right plan. But a generation of people were raised with the Silicon Valley idea of move “move fast and break things” and it must have trickled down into the mainstream idea that a system they see as unfixably broken just needs to be trashed at this point. 

These people are delusional imbeciles who are about to experience a full LaaS (life as a service).

 

I think they are far more likely to return to feudal servitude owning very little and leasing pretty much everything from their elected billionaire overlords than they are to embark on a golden era of prosperity.

[Agent 00Soul]

Absolutely. It’s hard to build a functioning country. It arguably took over 20 years for the fledgling US to become genuinely stable in the late 18th century. And a lot of that was due to accepting a deal with the devil about slavery. But it was so long ago that people don’t think about this inconvenient fact (the same way Holocaust denial skyrocketed as soon as most WW2 vets were dead) and because of that they can twist it to fit their narrative. 

[chris_b]

I'd love to boycott many countries with dubious records, US, China etc, but I'd don't want to move into a cave.

[Si600]

21 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I'd love to boycott many countries with dubious records, US, China etc, but I'd don't want to move into a cave.

It wouldn't be an English cave either.  I wonder where you'd have to have your cave actually.  One of the Bhuddist coutries?

[prowla]

3 hours ago, tegs07 said:

The short term chaos brings me right back to the themes I was trying to explore in the geopolitics thread. Debt and a leaner more nimble challenger to the throne.

 

The US debt to GDP ratio is shocking. Trump has a vision of an export lead manufacturing economy but it is a long road to get there. Before GDP can be boosted that debt needs to be serviced and new debt raised for investment. This requires a sound economy and a robust stock market.

 

Lets watch and wait.

I wonder how an export-led economy will work if the other countries have 25% tariffs on the goods.

[tegs07]

22 minutes ago, prowla said:

I wonder how an export-led economy will work if the other countries have 25% tariffs on the goods.

As highlighted by @ceterapost it’s most likely a complete pipe dream. I used to work with someone whose family ran a manufacturing business in the UK. After Brexit people were chatting about bringing manufacturing back to the UK and he said similar things. It would take years and even then would never be competitive. His family business had pivoted in the 1980s to making a specific high end product and outsourced the rest to China.

Edited March 13 by tegs07
correct date

[tegs07]

As to the above it’s not just the machinery it’s the skills shortages. How many welders, glass blowers, tanners, leather workers, lathe operators etc etc are left in the digital world?

And how many young people want to work in dirty, hot, uncomfortable jobs?

Edited March 13 by tegs07

[Russ]

9 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

As to the above it’s not just the machinery it’s the skills shortages. How many welders, glass blowers, tanners, leather workers, lathe operators etc etc are left in the digital world?

And how many young people want to work in dirty, hot, uncomfortable jobs?

There's very little training available for those sorts of trades in the UK these days, and precious few apprenticeships. Which is a shame - apparently there's been a surge of interest in the more traditional trades these past few years, supposedly driven by the success of The Repair Shop!

 

Personally, I think it's very important to keep these trades and crafts alive - there's a lot of work there for people who have a genuine interest in them. 

[prowla]

4 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

As to the above it’s not just the machinery it’s the skills shortages. How many welders, glass blowers, tanners, leather workers, lathe operators etc etc are left in the digital world?

And how many young people want to work in dirty, hot, uncomfortable jobs?

Yep.

Building the skills base isn't an overnight job and could be generational.

Ironically immigration can provide a short-term fix for this, but it can then quickly become the established norm, and so the indigenous skilled staff never materialises.

It's a bit like the plans to build loads of houses here, where there aren't enough appropriately skilled workers to do the jobs, or nursing, where there are apparently lots of qualified Filipinos ready to step in.

You can't just snap your fingers and say "Make it so!".

Another side of it, which you allude to there is that the nasty, polluting work has been offshored/exported, so bringing it back would impact climate figures.

[mcnach]

21 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

Trump is meeting with Irish PM/Taoiseach Michael Martin today.

 

I'm wondering whether there'll be some shoehorned in hack asking why he's not dressed up like a Leprechaun.

 

 

Why would Trump dress like a Leprechaun?

 

(oooh, of course, the pot of gold thing)

[tegs07]

1 minute ago, mcnach said:

 

 

Why would Trump dress like a Leprechaun?

 

(oooh, of course, the pot of gold thing)

Indeed Oompa loompa would be far more his style 

[mcnach]

19 hours ago, Geek99 said:

American cars are shi t though

 

I wouldn't refuse a '68 Ford Mustang 'though

 

[Russ]

12 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

I wouldn't refuse a '68 Ford Mustang 'though

 

My father-in-law is a mechanic specialising in classic American cars. Some of them are beautiful, and make a wonderful noise. But they're almost all absolutely awful to drive, with steering that barely even works! Older Mustangs and Corvettes are among the better ones, but even they're not exactly great. 

[tegs07]

3 minutes ago, Russ said:

My father-in-law is a mechanic specialising in classic American cars. Some of them are beautiful, and make a wonderful noise. But they're almost all absolutely awful to drive, with steering that barely even works! Older Mustangs and Corvettes are among the better ones, but even they're not exactly great. 

I rented a V8 Pontiac Firebird many years ago in the US. Great fun but rather alarming to see the dashboard flexing and distorting when driving very slowly down a dirt track …

[Obrienp]

27 minutes ago, Russ said:

My father-in-law is a mechanic specialising in classic American cars. Some of them are beautiful, and make a wonderful noise. But they're almost all absolutely awful to drive, with steering that barely even works! Older Mustangs and Corvettes are among the better ones, but even they're not exactly great. 

Going round corners doesn’t seem to have been a priority for the US automotive industry, even for their motorbikes. It seems to have been all about brand image. Harley-Davidson being a prime example. Until very recently the design hadn’t changed significantly since the early part of the last century. Same with their cars: swanky packaging with pretty ancient engineering underneath.

[tegs07]

3 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

Going round corners doesn’t seem to have been a priority for the US automotive industry, even for their motorbikes. It seems to have been all about brand image. Harley-Davidson being a prime example. Until very recently the design hadn’t changed significantly since the early part of the last century. Same with their cars: swanky packaging with pretty ancient engineering underneath.

US cars and bikes work pretty well for US roads though. If you’re driving for many hours at a time doing 55 a sports bike or hatch back are not the best options.

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Russ said:

apparently there's been a surge of interest in the more traditional trades these past few years, supposedly driven by the success of The Repair Shop!

 

Personally, I think it's very important to keep these trades and crafts alive - there's a lot of work there for people who have a genuine interest in them. 

 

I think it is very important to keep those skills but from a practical point of view, its not something that is every going to be mainstream. I watched one the other day where the woodworking guy and the furniture repairing woman fixed a set of chairs that meant something to some guy. They, obviously, did a fantastic job, but in real life, apart from the very unique circumstances of those specific chairs meaning something to you, there is no situation where you wouldn't be able to buy new chairs of the same type for less money than the repair that they did, and that goes for a lot of things.

I love repairing things, but don't fool myself to thinking that if I charged a reasonable rate it would not be cheaper than getting a new one.

[tegs07]

6 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I think it is very important to keep those skills but from a practical point of view, its not something that is every going to be mainstream. I watched one the other day where the woodworking guy and the furniture repairing woman fixed a set of chairs that meant something to some guy. They, obviously, did a fantastic job, but in real life, apart from the very unique circumstances of those specific chairs meaning something to you, there is no situation where you wouldn't be able to buy new chairs of the same type for less money than the repair that they did, and that goes for a lot of things.

I love repairing things, but don't fool myself to thinking that if I charged a reasonable rate it would not be cheaper than getting a new one.

This could change though. I went to replace my kitchen cabinets this year and the quality of the new units was shocking. Absolutely garbage.

 

My old ones had a very decent veneer so a bit of sanding, repainting and repair. Looks infinitely better.

 

I have noticed a marked decline in quality of a range of products from computers (again stick Ubuntu on a 10 year old Lenovo or Dell rather than the flimsy crap new Windows laptop) through to HiFi kit. I used to buy Denon but took the last one back and bought the old model off eBay.

[SteveXFR]

3 hours ago, Russ said:

My father-in-law is a mechanic specialising in classic American cars. Some of them are beautiful, and make a wonderful noise. But they're almost all absolutely awful to drive, with steering that barely even works! Older Mustangs and Corvettes are among the better ones, but even they're not exactly great. 

 

Very true. I drove a 75 Corvette and quickly learned the meaning of the phrase "never meet your heroes". It was good in a straight line as long as the road is smooth. I would honestly say a Mondeo with half the power would be quicker around any race circuit. 

European supersaloons are basically what muscle cars should have been. M5's E63's and XFR's don't look as cool but certainly drive better than even a new Mustang.

[Buddster]

4 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

Very true. I drove a 75 Corvette and quickly learned the meaning of the phrase "never meet your heroes" 

I did the same a few years ago. It's one of my favourite cars. But haven driven it, it's more about the looks than the drive. 

Was it Clarkson or Hammond that said the suspension in the mustang was closer to horse cart than a car (or words to that effect) 

[SteveXFR]

15 minutes ago, Buddster said:

I did the same a few years ago. It's one of my favourite cars. But haven driven it, it's more about the looks than the drive. 

Was it Clarkson or Hammond that said the suspension in the mustang was closer to horse cart than a car (or words to that effect) 

 

Clarkson and he's right. The Mustang uses leaf springs. 

I've now bought three cars based entirely on Clarksons reviews, they were all excellent (Roomster, Yeti & XFR) and the XFR was as bonkers as described it.

[AMV001]

6 hours ago, Russ said:

My father-in-law is a mechanic specialising in classic American cars. Some of them are beautiful, and make a wonderful noise. But they're almost all absolutely awful to drive, with steering that barely even works! Older Mustangs and Corvettes are among the better ones, but even they're not exactly great. 

A friend of mine had a late 60's Mustang which I drove once. You know in the films where you see them constantly shifting the wheel from left to right? I thought that was just a cinema trope to reinforce that fact that you are watching someone supposedly driving. Well, maybe not, as that's exactly what I had to do just to keep that damned car in a straight line...

Edited March 13 by AMV001

[TimR]

I worked in the states in the 90s and drove a variety of hire cars. They looked and sounded incredible. Straight line speed and acceleration was great, but cornering in the snow was not happening.

 

I remember the first day in snowed in Detriot amd Windsor (Canada). It was carnage on the I94. Air bag city with abandoned crashed cars every mile or so.

 

Don't let anyone tell you that other countries don't have problems when in snows.