tegs07 Posted Wednesday at 12:42 Posted Wednesday at 12:42 7 minutes ago, peteb said: I think that you are underestimating the incompetence of the American right and the conflicting interests at play here. I would guess that the USA may well go down the route of a mixture of mid 90s Russia (probably without the bloodshed, but who knows) and post Brexit Britain. The growth of an oligarchy obsessed with its own wealth and status, mixed with a country finding that destroying trade with its established partners isn’t the best idea for running a major economy. And even worse rather than tackling major issues such as wealth inequality, educational inequality, health inequality, climate change etc money is being withheld from aid agencies, disease prevention and being pumped into an arms race (including nuclear) just as we recover from one of the worst global pandemics in modern times and economic and climate migration is being made worse by war migration in the middle east and central europe. Absolute disaster domestically and internationally. Quote
peteb Posted Wednesday at 12:45 Posted Wednesday at 12:45 (edited) 37 minutes ago, tegs07 said: And even worse rather than tackling major issues such as wealth inequality, educational inequality, health inequality, climate change etc money is being withheld from aid agencies, disease prevention and being pumped into an arms race (including nuclear) just as we recover from one of the worst global pandemics in modern times and economic and climate migration is being made worse by war migration in the middle east and central europe. Absolute disaster domestically and internationally. All of this will have serious repercussions in the long-term. But remember that Trump just doesn't care about any of this, as the consequences are likely to be when he is no longer president. Edited Wednesday at 13:19 by peteb Quote
Chienmortbb Posted Wednesday at 13:19 Posted Wednesday at 13:19 6 hours ago, TimR said: Journalists have a history of hacking into unsecured systems (see UK's Daily Mail). So the question remains why were they using an non secure system. Why were they using their personal phones. Why was the National Security Advisor using a non Secure System? Not, Why did a Journalist get invited into a chat? It's quite possible he didn't get invited. And that should be the focus. There were using a secure system, but not as secure as it should have been. It is a commercial service, ironically like Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server. If a "secure" service is in public use, you have to accept that it can be, and has been, hacked. In this case, the people involved (except the journalist) are stupid or ideologically blind, which in many ways is worse. These people are in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal. Something that tempers Putin's behaviour but not the current Trump led destructors. Quote
prowla Posted Wednesday at 13:34 Posted Wednesday at 13:34 Russia says sanctions must be lifted before Ukraine maritime ceasefire can start. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93n05z48ldo Quote
Pseudonym Posted Wednesday at 14:12 Posted Wednesday at 14:12 It has been nearly two months since this thread started, and here we are on page 68. Has anyone here taken any concrete action to address for themselves, or for others, the prevailing conditions of an unpredictable US administration, a disrupted international trading system, and/or a less reliable pattern of military and diplomatic relationships? Quote
tegs07 Posted Wednesday at 14:16 Posted Wednesday at 14:16 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Pseudonym said: It has been nearly two months since this thread started, and here we are on page 68. Has anyone here taken any concrete action to address for themselves, or for others, the prevailing conditions of an unpredictable US administration, a disrupted international trading system, and/or a less reliable pattern of military and diplomatic relationships? I’ve bought more gold and am looking to downsize to a more modern fuel efficient property. I have also hugely increased my pension contributions incase my public sector job comes to an end in the foreseeable future. Edited Wednesday at 14:17 by tegs07 2 Quote
Russ Posted Wednesday at 14:20 Posted Wednesday at 14:20 56 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said: There were using a secure system, but not as secure as it should have been. It is a commercial service, ironically like Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server. If a "secure" service is in public use, you have to accept that it can be, and has been, hacked. In this case, the people involved (except the journalist) are stupid or ideologically blind, which in many ways is worse. These people are in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal. Something that tempers Putin's behaviour but not the current Trump led destructors. Signal is a service that offers self-destructing messages, so there's no digital "paper trail". This is illegal - all US federal communications are supposed to happen through approved secure systems, on secured devices, and everything has to be logged. It's almost certain that this is the reason it was being used, so there's no official records of the conversations. It's end-to-end encrypted, but it's not difficult to compromise any of the messaging "endpoints", ie, the devices used to send and receive the messages, so it's hackable and readable by anyone who can do this (hello Russia, China, North Korea, etc). Quote
Dad3353 Posted Wednesday at 14:31 Posted Wednesday at 14:31 15 minutes ago, Pseudonym said: ... Has anyone here taken any concrete action to address for themselves, or for others, the prevailing conditions of an unpredictable US administration, a disrupted international trading system, and/or a less reliable pattern of military and diplomatic relationships? I've planted two rows of potatoes (two different varieties...), and will be shortly erecting a small (9m²...) tunnel greenhouse, to grow tomatoes in grow-bags. (Disclaimer : I was doing this anyway, US or no US ...) 3 1 Quote
Pseudonym Posted Wednesday at 14:33 Posted Wednesday at 14:33 Just now, Dad3353 said: I've planted two rows of potatoes (two different varieties...), and will be shortly erecting a small (9m²...) tunnel greenhouse, to grow tomatoes in grow-bags. (Disclaimer : I was doing this anyway, US or no US ...) So, "No," basically. Proud of you, Douglas. Had you mentioned buying chickens, I might have thought that you were fondling the nether regions of Mammon. 1 Quote
tegs07 Posted Wednesday at 14:43 Posted Wednesday at 14:43 24 minutes ago, Pseudonym said: It has been nearly two months since this thread started, and here we are on page 68. Has anyone here taken any concrete action to address for themselves, or for others, the prevailing conditions of an unpredictable US administration, a disrupted international trading system, and/or a less reliable pattern of military and diplomatic relationships? One thing I have been doing more often is just taking time to reflect how lucky we have been over the last several decades. Trying to enjoy the small things. I’m not a religious person, but totally understand the point of saying grace before a meal for example. So easy to take everything for granted. This might just be a byproduct of getting older though and realising nothing lasts for ever and having more patience than when I was younger. 1 Quote
Pseudonym Posted Wednesday at 14:48 Posted Wednesday at 14:48 4 minutes ago, tegs07 said: One thing I have been doing more often is just taking time to reflect how lucky we have been over the last several decades. Trying to enjoy the small things. I’m not a religious person, but totally understand the point of saying grace before a meal for example. So easy to take everything for granted. This might just be a byproduct of getting older though and realising nothing lasts for ever and having more patience than when I was younger. This all sounds like a valid argument for saying grace after a meal. 1 Quote
chris_b Posted Wednesday at 14:51 Posted Wednesday at 14:51 38 minutes ago, Pseudonym said: It has been nearly two months since this thread started, and here we are on page 68. Has anyone here taken any concrete action to address for themselves, or for others, the prevailing conditions of an unpredictable US administration, a disrupted international trading system, and/or a less reliable pattern of military and diplomatic relationships? I bought a new tin hat. . . . and a backup. 2 Quote
Pseudonym Posted Wednesday at 14:55 Posted Wednesday at 14:55 3 minutes ago, chris_b said: I bought a new tin hat. . . . and a backup. So, you actually do wear two hats, then. 1 Quote
tauzero Posted Wednesday at 14:56 Posted Wednesday at 14:56 2 hours ago, peteb said: All of this will have serious repercussions in the long-term. But remember that Trump just doesn't care about any of this, as the consequences are likely to be when he is no longer president. But they will hit when he is king. Quote
tauzero Posted Wednesday at 14:58 Posted Wednesday at 14:58 46 minutes ago, Pseudonym said: It has been nearly two months since this thread started, and here we are on page 68. Has anyone here taken any concrete action to address for themselves, or for others, the prevailing conditions of an unpredictable US administration, a disrupted international trading system, and/or a less reliable pattern of military and diplomatic relationships? I bought a Squier. Quote
tegs07 Posted Wednesday at 14:59 Posted Wednesday at 14:59 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Pseudonym said: It has been nearly two months since this thread started, and here we are on page 68. Has anyone here taken any concrete action to address for themselves, or for others, the prevailing conditions of an unpredictable US administration, a disrupted international trading system, and/or a less reliable pattern of military and diplomatic relationships? Do you have any concerns being in America? Whenever I have visited I’ve often been struck by how different certain states are. I’m not sure what impact the Trump, Vance alliance is having on this. Are more progressive individuals crossing state lines? I have some friends that have done this already. Also despite these differences there was always a strong alliance based on belief of what the USA was and what it stood for. I’m not sure if Trump represents this. A Russian sympathetic, non laiser faire recidivist who sides with dictators, threatens his allies and is systematically dismantling many of the institutions that did make America great to begin with based on what seems to me nothing more than blind hope and arrogance. Edited Wednesday at 15:04 by tegs07 Quote
tauzero Posted Wednesday at 15:03 Posted Wednesday at 15:03 17 minutes ago, tegs07 said: One thing I have been doing more often is just taking time to reflect how lucky we have been over the last several decades. Trying to enjoy the small things. I’m not a religious person, but totally understand the point of saying grace before a meal for example. So easy to take everything for granted. This might just be a byproduct of getting older though and realising nothing lasts for ever and having more patience than when I was younger. Birthdays are a way of celebrating the fact that one has survived another 365 (or 366) days. Given the increasing uncertainty of continuing existence, perhaps we should increase the frequency of celebrations, maybe initially to quarterly. 1 Quote
Steve Browning Posted Wednesday at 15:05 Posted Wednesday at 15:05 Maybe I'll become a Druid. The Sun won't let me down during my lifetime. That's the celestial body version of course. 1 Quote
Russ Posted Wednesday at 15:22 Posted Wednesday at 15:22 16 minutes ago, tegs07 said: Do you have any concerns being in America? Whenever I have visited I’ve often been struck by how different certain states are. I’m not sure what impact the Trump, Vance alliance is having on this. Are more progressive individuals crossing state lines? I have some friends that have done this already. Also despite these differences there was always a strong alliance based on belief of what the USA was and what it stood for. I’m not sure if Trump represents this. A Russian sympathetic, non laiser faire recidivist who sides with dictators, threatens his allies and is systematically dismantling many of the institutions that did make America great to begin with based on what seems to me nothing more than blind hope and arrogance. I know this wasn't directed at me, but, since November, I've become a bit more active in the local progressive organisations, made some campaign contributions and worked a bit with our local school board to ensure that certain initiatives are not swept under the table. I'm in New Jesery, which is a blue state, but I live in quite a red corner of it. We have schools here who are implementing book bans, removing protections for LGBTQ students and which are facing budget cuts, so, as a parent with kids in the local schools, I'm being proactive in advocating for the progressive agenda. The principals, most of the teachers, and a little more than half the local school board are on the progressive side of things, but they're facing down the local representative, who's a Republican and is advocating for all this Tr**pian stuff, and, of course, the locals have no interest in paying additional property taxes to subsidise improvements at the school. Which is all good. For now. But in the medium term, we're leaving. This is no place to bring up kids. Only this morning I got an email from the school saying that they had a "shelter in place" drill. If it's not one of those, it's an active shooter drill. There's a security guard at the school's front door carrying a gun. That's just wrong. 2 2 Quote
SimonK Posted Wednesday at 15:33 Posted Wednesday at 15:33 1 hour ago, Pseudonym said: It has been nearly two months since this thread started, and here we are on page 68. Has anyone here taken any concrete action to address for themselves, or for others, the prevailing conditions of an unpredictable US administration, a disrupted international trading system, and/or a less reliable pattern of military and diplomatic relationships? I've got family in the States - we were out there on holiday for the last two years, but have no intention of stepping foot over there until things have settled down a bit... maybe even waiting five years from now... Quote
Pseudonym Posted Wednesday at 17:02 Posted Wednesday at 17:02 2 hours ago, tegs07 said: Do you have any concerns being in America? Whenever I have visited I’ve often been struck by how different certain states are. I’m not sure what impact the Trump, Vance alliance is having on this. Are more progressive individuals crossing state lines? I have some friends that have done this already. Also despite these differences there was always a strong alliance based on belief of what the USA was and what it stood for. I’m not sure if Trump represents this. Concerns? Yes. Enough to change anything significant in my life? No. That is mainly because I had already responded to the first Trump administration, and did not treat it as a glitch in the electoral system. I thought, and still think, that it was a symptom of an increasingly widespread and nihilistic repudiation of an excessively Panglossian status quo. (I think a similar instinct looked at David Cameron and saw oblivious complacency rather than calm reassurance.) I am moderately confident that the febrile political mood will not necessarily deteriorate into conflict between groups of American citizens; there are benefits to a decisive electoral victory. If anything, I think it is more likely that opposition to the administration will re-establish common ground in the public square; a return, if you will, to the moment when quite a few Oregonians who voted for Bernie Sanders rather than Hillary Clinton subsequently voted for Trump rather than Clinton. If the rationale for an administration is that only destruction of the status quo can save the day, it is particularly bad for the administration if it then fails to save the day. Voters are already getting quite fizzy on that point, and the direction of political winds is unpredictable. I am sure some progressives are crossing state lines, but that is not new. This country has a long history of episodic chilling-effect moral panics (the Red Scare, McCarthyism, Nixon's responses to countercultural protests, etc), and I think this is to be expected. As others here have pointed out, American strands of contention have very long histories. I would say they are inherent in the US and its political tradition. Rhetoric about a shared notion of what it means to be an American is one of those comforting tales that people like to rehearse, like Father Christmas and chimneys, or the spirit of the Blitz, or the unique je ne sais quoi heft of one's expensive bass. In reality, this has always been a nation of competing narratives and widespread dissent. Americans come together when someone is shooting at them, or at Thanksgiving, or when Bruce Willis makes a wisecrack. Beyond such moments, I find much to appreciate about the fact that this really is a very heterogeneous country in which cohesion is a matter of community and affinity. I have also found the overwhelming majority of people to be respectful when treated with respect, regardless of cultural assumptions and different viewpoints. On the whole, I think Trump thrives because of one thing that his supporters and detractors alike can see plainly: he represents a massive affront to a disappointing status quo. So does Bernie Sanders, for that matter, but Sanders is ultimately a dissenter within the establishment: although he is, strictly speaking, a political independent, he is also a high-profile career politician. Anything these days with a whiff of elitism or establishment bona fides has a bit of a stink to it for most people. On the other hand, Trump always manages to present himself as a privateer, a buccaneer, a pirate; and, no matter what polite society claims to think, an awful lot of people love pirates. After all, if a President Sanders went all medieval and ultra vires against energy companies, how many self-proclaimed progressives would actually object on the grounds that the rule of law is sacrosanct? And let's not pretend that US security commitments to other states are non-negotiable for progressives, because they plainly are not. The problem is that the "establishment" is simultaneously a cipher for some kind of thwarted American wellbeing, but also the bulwark that protects American wellbeing. So JP Morgan is Lex Luther until there is a banking crisis, at which point it is Superbank; scientists are a gang of oh-so-superior swots until the morgues are full (and then after they are empty again); the Pentagon is a disgraceful grift until it needs all the money in existence so that Our Brave Boys (and Girls during some election cycles) can go after whoever caught us with our pants down; the EPA is nanny nagging you to take a bath until the children in your town all seem to get sick and someone with book-learning mutters the word "cluster"; judges are corrupt until they foil the corrupt officials who you voted for because you thought they would stop corruption; and Big Business is good, bad or indifferent according to your own relationship (or, more likely, multiple relationships) with it. It is entirely possible that contemporary life has become too muddled and formless for human beings to assimilate in relation to a stable set of coordinates. Sometimes, electorates need object lessons in order to clarify what is important to them, and systems need stress tests in order to remain in place. If the system fails, perhaps it was always more illusory than it seemed; and that harsh truth is also worth knowing, whatever follows. 1 Quote
tegs07 Posted Wednesday at 17:18 Posted Wednesday at 17:18 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Pseudonym said: I thought, and still think, that it was a symptom of an increasingly widespread and nihilistic repudiation of an excessively Panglossian status quo. (I think a similar instinct looked at David Cameron and saw oblivious complacency rather than calm reassurance.) Sadly I agree with this. Brexit came as no great surprise neither does the populist movement across Europe. I do wonder how much of the conspiracy websites, disinformation in social media and electoral interference is orchestrated with the aim of creating division through. I also don’t know what can fix the situation. We live in a high tech, skills based economy where certain sections of society thrive whilst others flounder. Living standards are slipping after nearly three decades of people enjoying lifestyles which would have been seen as extraordinary by previous generations (even if they were frequently reliant upon cheap debt and a very low inflation environment to fund them). Consequently a large percentage of people have expectations that most governments are unable to meet, even if they could get the skills, training and high paying jobs that are in danger of slipping away. Edited Wednesday at 17:22 by tegs07 Quote
Dad3353 Posted Wednesday at 17:36 Posted Wednesday at 17:36 27 minutes ago, Pseudonym said: ... contemporary life has become too muddled and formless for human beings to assimilate in relation to a stable set of coordinates... Indeed, as I have tried to illustrate before, with some tongue in cheek. Looking for any rational 'solution' to any of this seems, to me, to be vain, as it is beyond the intellect of any one person, or collection of people. The scale is vast; it's difficult to 'manage' a village, so global geopolitics..? Not a chance. Do the best that one can in one's immediate vicinity seems, to me, to be the best one could hope for. The rest is, essentially, virtual, for 99.9999% of the Planet's population. What can be done about any of it..? One's best s'all. 11 minutes ago, tegs07 said: ... Consequently a large percentage of people have expectations that no governments is able to meet, even if they could get the skills, training and high paying jobs that are in danger of slipping away. Fixed (see above; s'not possible for Humans to apprehend and master. Dial it all back, if it's not already too late...). Quote
Pseudonym Posted Wednesday at 17:39 Posted Wednesday at 17:39 (edited) 1 hour ago, tegs07 said: Sadly I agree with this. Brexit came as no great surprise neither does the populist movement across Europe. I do wonder how much of the conspiracy websites, disinformation in social media and electoral interference is orchestrated with the aim of creating division through. I also don’t know what can fix the situation. We live in a high tech skills based economy where certain sections of society thrive whilst others flounder. Living standards are slipping after nearly three decades of people enjoying lifestyles which would have been seen as extraordinary in previous generations (even if they were frequently reliant upon cheap debt and a very low inflation environment). This brings us back to tariffs, in some ways. It was a given that increased nationalist sentiment would massively increase the potential for systems of tariffs if that sentiment led to the erosion of supranational political blocs that had their origins in trading blocs. One consequence is that sequence of formation was that the EU recognised how the development of some areas of economic activity (post-industrial and agile, for want of a shorthand) would be be at the expense of traditional, industrial, very static employment. Structural funds could help with this, but the real point was that the relationship was stipulated and "winners" were inherently required to compensate, however indirectly, for "losers". That kind of arrangement involved numerous aspects that looked utterly bewildering and foolish to the kinds of people who believed the nonsense that the tabloid press and social media propagated. It is all fun and giggles when the "us" is good, solid, common-sense decent people, and "them" is the stereotypical faceless bureaucrat (who is, somehow, never a friend or neighbour). In reality, the "us" and "them" were, of course, the same entity: the public at large. It was always the case that economic fortunes waxed and waned. A tariff regime can, in some instances, serve a useful purpose in cushioning the blows, or diluting an economic threat (such as dumping). If tariffs are understood in that fashion -- as a means, however imperfect, of redressing the balance of things that the public claims to care about -- perhaps the public will accept them. If it becomes yet another scapegoat for why people seem to struggle more to get less than they used to, I doubt anything will improve significantly. Tariffs are, in themselves, a form of scapegoat unless there are precise economic reasons why a particular product, or nation, or whatever, should be targeted. This is plainly apparent in the current US approach to using them as cudgels and carrots, but it is not written in stone that there is only one set of rules to the game. There are massive problems in all of this, but also some opportunities to rectify a few of the errors of the recent past. Edited Wednesday at 18:29 by Pseudonym Quote
Buddster Posted Wednesday at 17:52 Posted Wednesday at 17:52 This has all gotten very high brow. Can we go back to calling trump a t**t? (I'm joking, it's all making good reading) 1 Quote
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