Trump's tariff wars...long post.

[prowla]

2 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

You're sounding a lot like the friend in question

 

As I said to him, is that the government, or just the world? I think it's the latter, although I'm happy to be convinced otherwise..... 

 

Thanks!

For me it's the government - Bliar's "By the people for the people." was a big lie and every government since has just been NuLab revisited.

OTOH, I've just been to the gym and I'm now drinking a smoothie with a plastic straw - life is good!

[Downunderwonder]

6 hours ago, TimR said:

Zalenski wants UN Troops in as protection.

Putin won't allow that.

 

This has a way to run yet. The Mango Massiah is overstating his role yet again.

I don't think what Putin wants will have much bearing on the outcome, if any. He will be lucky not to take a flight from the top floor of the Kremlin.

 

The Russians have just about lost their collective ability to wage war. Trump has offered them a false hope of victory from the jaws of defeat.

 

Ukraine is laying waste to Russian oil and gas infrastructure. The Russian navy hides from Ukrainian reach. The air defences are favouring the Kerch bridge so Ukraine lets it stand while they pick off relatively unprotected

ammo dumps and air bases.

 

New German government is right behind Ukraine.

 

Now the big players in Europe are all on the same page they should be able to recall the Putin lapdog. Nice fat arms contracts on offer paid for with Russian seized loot.

[edstraker123]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

Zelensky, on the other hand, is a genuine political hero, a modern day Winston Churchill...!

Not buying it !

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenski

 

As for Starmer and his party - have you seen how many people are currently being made redundant in Higher Education - they've done nothing to help.

Edited 14 hours ago by edstraker123

[peteb]

21 minutes ago, edstraker123 said:

As for Starmer and his party - have you seen how many people are currently being made redundant in Higher Education - they've done nothing to help.

 

Didn't you see the bit about Starmer having 'an impossible job of trying to fix fourteen years of the most chaotic and corrupt UK government of the modern era'. There's no money left and there will be a lot of unpopular decisions that will have to be made. Starmer's task is realistically, to try and slow down how bad things will be. The UK is screwed anyway and with the need for Europe to re-arm more than expected and Trump looking to start a full-scale trade war, even this may be impossible. 

 

[Count Bassy]

1 hour ago, prowla said:

 

- Bliar's "By the people for the people."

 

 I don't think that even Tony Blair would claim to have originated that expression/mantra.

[edstraker123]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

Starmer's task is realistically, to try and slow down how bad things will be

Well he's accelerated it with the employers NI increases- watch how many businesses go under or people get made redundant as a consequence.

I completely agree with you that the last government were the worst ever - everyone expected better but its not happened. It mirrors Biden following Trump, everyone breathed a sigh of relief but the reality was no better, just a lot less obnoxious. Labour's failure so far is opening the door to Reform and there can't be a worse prospect than that.

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, tegs07 said:

You know that I am not the greatest fan of career politicians. There’s a long legacy of incompetence, short term thinking and bad judgment. I’ve never witnessed the kind of vitriol, hatred and contempt that we have seen in the last few years though.

 

By the politicians, or about them?

[tauzero]

3 hours ago, peteb said:

Didn't you see the bit about Starmer having 'an impossible job of trying to fix fourteen years of the most chaotic and corrupt UK government of the modern era'. There's no money left and there will be a lot of unpopular decisions that will have to be made. Starmer's task is realistically, to try and slow down how bad things will be. The UK is screwed anyway and with the need for Europe to re-arm more than expected and Trump looking to start a full-scale trade war, even this may be impossible. 

 

He keeps refusing to apply a wealth tax or to tax the huge profits that energy companies have made in the last few years, instead choosing to go for pensioners, poor families with more then two children, overseas aid, and raised the cost of employment.

 

I long for a left wing government. We haven't had one since 1979.

[tegs07]

4 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

By the politicians, or about them?

When I made the comment I was referring to politicians inciting hatred and division as a political tactic, but on reflection politicians have also suffered from violence and vitriol from their constituents.

[tegs07]

4 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

He keeps refusing to apply a wealth tax or to tax the huge profits that energy companies have made in the last few years, instead choosing to go for pensioners, poor families with more then two children, overseas aid, and raised the cost of employment.

 

I long for a left wing government. We haven't had one since 1979.

Straying towards party politics here but yes I agree a wealth tax should be explored as a solution to the growing deficit. Income tax is no longer effective. There is a small percentage of people who allegedly earn no taxable income but accumulate massive wealth and a shrinking middle class that are easy targets.

[Steve Browning]

We are pushing the boundaries I guess but this is more of a general point.

 

How many of these companies,  talking about the dire consequences of the budget etc could easily absorb the additional cost and still make a good profit and pay good dividends?

 

We should have a discussion about what level of profit is good and what is excessive. 

 

[Jack]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

We are pushing the boundaries I guess but this is more of a general point.

 

How many of these companies,  talking about the dire consequences of the budget etc could easily absorb the additional cost and still make a good profit and pay good dividends?

 

We should have a discussion about what level of profit is good and what is excessive. 

 

I would hazard a guess at 'most of the big ones'. Energy price cap going up again, British Gas making £750 million a year in profits. I know that's only £30 per house* yes but that's just one example. I'm tired and BC isn't the place for too much politics but we all know there are similar stories in other major 'public' companies like trains and buses and ISPs.

 

 

* = assuming that BG supplies every house and no business, which should almost cancel each other out?

Edited 4 hours ago by Jack

[peteb]

2 hours ago, tegs07 said:

Straying towards party politics here but yes I agree a wealth tax should be explored as a solution to the growing deficit. Income tax is no longer effective. There is a small percentage of people who allegedly earn no taxable income but accumulate massive wealth and a shrinking middle class that are easy targets.

 

It's not really party politics, as no party is prepared (at the moment) to consider a wealth tax. As you know, I totally agree with you, but it will be a difficult policy to put in place with considerable political costs. However, the UK (and some other countries) are running out of options, so who knows? 

 

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

How many of these companies,  talking about the dire consequences of the budget etc could easily absorb the additional cost and still make a good profit and pay good dividends?

 

The majority of them Steve, and too many politicians on all sides keep big business sweet because it's big business that's going to provide their massive pay-day once their political career is over

[Al Krow]

6 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

He keeps refusing to apply a wealth tax or to tax the huge profits that energy companies have made in the last few years, instead choosing to go for pensioners, poor families with more then two children, overseas aid, and raised the cost of employment.

 

I long for a left wing government. We haven't had one since 1979.

 

Do you have examples of successful left wing governments in any modern economy, broadly the same size as ours, that would be your template?

 

The trouble with wealth taxes is that the wealthy are also the ones who can most easily leave for somewhere they feel is more welcoming. The recent non-dom changes are already causing the UK to lose a bigger proportion of its wealthy than pretty much anywhere else on the planet and they're heading to Italy, Dubai etc. Now many may say "good riddance", but there are a host of jobs and investment that will be lost when they go. It's not great economics.

 

7 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

The majority of them Steve, and too many politicians on all sides keep big business sweet because it's big business that's going to provide their massive pay-day once their political career is over

 

I'm not sure that's how it works in the real world though? Large companies can move their headquarters and report profits in countries where tax rates are low. Why do you think so many US multinationals are HQ'd in Ireland with its corporation tax rate of 12.5% despite having a US stock market listing and making very little actual (as opposed to reported) sales and profits in Ireland itself?

 

The argument that Trump's tariffs are bad can equally apply to many forms of taxes. Income taxes generally work well because the people paying are also the ones benefitting from the services being provided by the state. They have become the most popular and effective form of taxation around the world. Well done William Pitt the Younger!

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I'm not sure that's how it works in the real world though?

 

I didn't suggest it was, I was simply saying that they would survive with lower profits despite what they say. The fact that I probably pay more tax to HMRC that Amazon hasn't escaped me Al  

[Beedster]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

but there are a host of jobs and investment that will be lost when they go

 

Which is the truth, a clever government has to walk a very fine line between sufficient tax to support society and sufficient private/corporate wealth to support business. Most go too far in one or other direction, but I guess that's short-term party politics for you?

[tegs07]

22 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

The trouble with wealth taxes is that the wealthy are also the ones who can most easily leave for somewhere they feel is more welcoming

The wealthy are welcome to move anywhere they like but they can’t take their assets with them. If they buy property, store gold, buy stocks and shares it is all housed in a country. Now if they want liquidate all their assets in Europe for more tax friendly countries like Russia, The UAE etc they are welcome but might find it a little more difficult. This is the key issue for me. Europe has an aging population, a growing deficit and an urgent need to address its security shortcomings. It’s also a very favourable place to live and do business. It has expensive property and infrastructure. People want to live in Europe, including the wealthy from all over the world. Collectively the EU and UK/Swiss etc can solve its problems. That or risk the failure of democracy or even the end of decades of peace and stability.

Edited 3 hours ago by tegs07

[Beedster]

Something I struggle to understand is the idea that while several large US companies appear able to have substantial revenue from the UK yet pay little tax, UK business owners/businesses are deserting the UK and appear unable to play the same game? It's probably a daft question for which there's an extremely simple answer 🤔  

[peteb]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Do you have examples of successful left wing governments in any modern economy, broadly the same size as ours, that would be your template?

 

The trouble with wealth taxes is that the wealthy are also the ones who can most easily leave for somewhere they feel is more welcoming. The recent non-dom changes are already causing the UK to lose a bigger proportion of its wealthy than pretty much anywhere else on the planet and they're heading to Italy, Dubai etc. Now many may say "good riddance", but there are a host of jobs and investment that will be lost when they go. It's not great economics.

 

The thing is that the wealthy cannot take their assets abroad with them. You can't take 2,000 acres of farmland or an industrial estate with you. It is quite possible to ensure that you can tax profits made in tis country, you would just need to upset a lot of very wealthy people who own a large proportion of the media. You could also note that those likely to flee the country for tax reasons tend to be those most unlikely to be providing a lot of jobs. 

 

You will struggle to find any genuine left-wing government that has been successful in the past fifty years. The last one in this country that those on the left would claim was in 1974 (not 1979) and was so unsuccessful that it paved the way for the Thatcher government to completely change the country, for better and (mainly) worse! 

 

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

The argument that Trump's tariffs are bad can equally apply to many forms of taxes. Income taxes generally work well because the people paying are also the ones benefitting from the services being provided by the state. They have become the most popular and effective form of taxation around the world. Well done William Pitt the Younger!

 

Tariffs are going to be bad for all the economies involved, start a trade war and cause considerable inflation in the USA. As @tegs07 said above, income tax is becoming increasingly ineffective. The massive accumulation of assets by the very wealthy in the past seventeen years is contributing to increasing poverty in what is still a relatively wealthy country and the destruction of the middle class (that's you and me, not to mention the vast majority of people following this thread)! 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by peteb

[Beedster]

Two more members of Team Trump.....?

 

[peteb]

It looks like Romania are giving up and just washing their hands of them! 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by peteb

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, peteb said:

It looks like Romania are giving up and just washing their hands of them! 

 

Just the type of lads Trump would no doubt prefer to be back in the US

[Obrienp]

Interesting article here. Since the vote in the UN this week, my mind has been going in this direction. The USA actively sided with our enemies: Russia, North Korea, China, etc. Russia is actively waging hybrid war against Europe and the UK and the USA has sided with our enemy. Can we trust the USA under Trump? I think not. 
 

Some of this does verge on the conspiracy theory at times but it is thought provoking. The special relationship seems to boil down to the UK being the USA’s poodle: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/27/britain-defend-itself-us-military?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[tegs07]

19 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

Interesting article here. Since the vote in the UN this week, my mind has been going in this direction. The USA actively sided with our enemies: Russia, North Korea, China, etc. Russia is actively waging hybrid war against Europe and the UK and the USA has sided with our enemy. Can we trust the USA under Trump? I think not. 
 

Some of this does verge on the conspiracy theory at times but it is thought provoking. The special relationship seems to boil down to the UK being the USA’s poodle: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/27/britain-defend-itself-us-military?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The elephant is the room being China’s no limits agreement with Russia. If Trump is daft enough to legitimise Russian invasion then he is also green lighting China to invade Taiwan.

 

A powerful and prosperous Chinese ally is just another front for China to spread its sphere of influence and turn even more nations away from US economic and political dominance.

 

Add Africa, the middle east and much of South America to the list and the USA is fast running out of continents.

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by tegs07