Trump's tariff wars...long post.

[PaulWarning]

4 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

He is only after increasing his personal wealth. He'll have shares that will increase when the US companies get hold of all the minerals. Same with Greenland. My guess he'll also hold the Panama Canal traffic to ransom with tarrifs for using it. 

this may or may not be true, but if it stops thousands being killed do the ends justify the means?

[peteb]

19 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

I think we all know Trump is a bully boy, but if he does does manage to pull off a lasting peace in Ukraine, after the cease fire in Gaza, I do wonder if the ends justify the means?

 

Do you really think that is going to happen? How long before Russia re-groups and tries to take the rest of Ukraine and / or moves into Moldova? What we are likely to see is an dangerous arms race between Russia and Europe, with a much higher chance of a war in Europe in the next ten years or so. 

 

As for the ceasefire in Gaza, Trump's ridiculous proposal to deliver 'peace' there would very likely start a civil war in Jordan, unrest in the rest of the Middle East and another major attack on Israel. 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by peteb

[tegs07]

38 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

I think we all know Trump is a bully boy, but if he does does manage to pull off a lasting peace in Ukraine, after the cease fire in Gaza, I do wonder if the ends justify the means?

There are two things that make me feel a lasting peace is unlikely:

1. Russia has lost one of it’s biggest export markets for oil and gas. A key source of its GDP. Even before the war the west was weaning itself off fossil fuels. 

2. The Russian economy is now a war economy. The primary driver of economic growth is feeding the war machine. 

 

Edit: Personally I feel that it is very prudent to prepare for more conflict in the region and an escalating series of sabotage, cyber attacks, disinformation and provocation. The prospect of tanks invading London is not the motivation for scaling up defence capabilities.

Edited 10 hours ago by tegs07

[tegs07]

This is the sort of statement that does concern me:

 

China says it is ready for 'any type of war' with US - BBC News 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gmd3g2nzqo

 

China are used to playing the long game and a statement this explicit is highly unusual. 

 

Edit: Hopefully this will be met with diplomacy and not tantrums and a re-evaluation of what leaving NATO means. 

Edited 9 hours ago by tegs07

[prowla]

1 hour ago, PaulWarning said:

I think we all know Trump is a bully boy, but if he does does manage to pull off a lasting peace in Ukraine, after the cease fire in Gaza, I do wonder if the ends justify the means?

If by peace you mean surrender, then all he will do is justify war.

[PaulWarning]

1 minute ago, prowla said:

If by peace you mean surrender, then all he will do is justify war.

this is true, but not many wars finish up without some sort of compromise and those that do like the WW1 and 2 result in wholesale slaughter.

Putin doesn't seem to care how many lives are lost as long as he doesn't lose face

[chris_b]

32 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Edit: Personally I feel that it is very prudent to prepare for more conflict in the region and an escalating series of sabotage, cyber attacks, disinformation and provocation.

 

This.

 

Putin's ships are already mapping the under sea cables that carry the internet, phone lines and much of the West's intelligence traffic. The aim is obviously to "blind" us and delay any response prior to his next big "push", whenever that will be.

 

He's also had a couple of test runs!!

[tegs07]

I am just glad that the far right haven’t taken control of European politics. We would then face the prospect of either Russian appeasement or (possibly worse) the kind of provocative ranting we saw from Truss. At least there is only the USA to contend with and some adults are still in control in Europe. As I have persistently stated (much to the boredom of anyone suffering my obsessive posting) FFS people when considering the cost of living crisis and the empty promises of right wing populists - would you want these nut jobs in charge right now?

[Agent 00Soul]

21 minutes ago, chris_b said:

 

This.

 

Putin's ships are already mapping the under sea cables that carry the internet, phone lines and much of the West's intelligence traffic. The aim is obviously to "blind" us and delay any response prior to his next big "push", whenever that will be.

 

He's also had a couple of test runs!!

 

Surely we are doing the exact same thing to Russia and China.  I hope so anyway.

[chris_b]

1 minute ago, Agent 00Soul said:

 

Surely we are doing the exact same thing to Russia and China.  I hope so anyway.

 

I don't think we're at the sabotage stage, whereas Putin has had a couple of runs at underwater cables and a Gas line in the Baltic.

[Agent 00Soul]

13 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

FFS people when considering the cost of living crisis and the empty promises of right wing populists - would you want these nut jobs in charge right now?

 

Easier said than done.  Mainstream parties around the western world have left a huge mass of the public feeling that they've done nothing for them and aren't about to believe they will now.  At least that's how I understand it.

[tegs07]

5 minutes ago, Agent 00Soul said:

 

Easier said than done.  Mainstream parties around the western world have left a huge mass of the public feeling that they've done nothing for them and aren't about to believe they will now.  At least that's how I understand it.

And yet most of us live in peace, eat 3 square meals a day, take holidays, listen to music, fall in love, have family.

 

Its easy to get all hung up over the lifestyle nonsense and forget what life is actually all about,

[Agent 00Soul]

20 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

And yet most of us live in peace, eat 3 square meals a day, take holidays, listen to music, fall in love, have family.

 

Its easy to get all hung up over the lifestyle nonsense and forget what life is actually all about,

 

I get it, but I'm also 56 and comfortably middle class with all the trappings that used to entail for a much larger part of the population.  What you describe doesn't excite young voters (it didn't for me when I was 23 either - although my "solution" was to be far-left not far-right).  It didn't in the 1920s and 30s either.  Democracy was seen as boring and unispiring and ultimatly unable to prevent or stop the Great Depression.  And, as I wrote, a critical mass of older voters feel they have been consistently lied to and that nothing has changed/will change without blowing the whole thing up.  Both groups have big streaks of nihilism in them too.  I think this also explains in the modern trend of huge groups of people of all stripes taking refuge in identity politics.  Any port in a storm and all that.

 

To understand this better check out this visionary book.  It's short and a quick read and was written about radical Islam, but has turned out to exactly describe the quandary the West is facing now.

 

Occidentalism by Ian Buruma & Avishai Margalit

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Agent 00Soul

[edstraker123]

21 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

would you want these nut jobs in charge right now?

One of ours talked Ukraine out of negotiating for peace years ago - how many lives could have been saved but for Boris ?

 

Interestingly in higher education we are trying to foster closer bonds with China viewing them as partners and trying to encourage more Chinese students to come here. Of course there is a financial aspect to this, but the people we work with are not the Chinese as vilified in the media. We also happily buy cheap Chinese goods - I guess they just become a real threat to us when there is an agenda to increase defence spending.

 

Worth a watch https://johnpilger.com/the-coming-war-on-china/ for context.

[TimR]

22 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

And yet most of us live in peace, eat 3 square meals a day, take holidays, listen to music, fall in love, have family.

 

Its easy to get all hung up over the lifestyle nonsense and forget what life is actually all about,

 

In the US homelessness is growing. They're often one paycheck from losing everything and a lot of them have just been sacked.

[Agent 00Soul]

22 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

In the US homelessness is growing. They're often one paycheck from losing everything and a lot of them have just been sacked.

 

OMG yes!  People don't realise that even employed people are more like the working poor in the US these days.  And there is no savings.  The Fed sent out a survey and one of the questions was how would people pay for a $400 emergency (about 310 pounds sterling)  and an astonishing 47% said they couldn't.  They didn't have enough!  310 pounds! Credit card debt and eBay have seemingly become the answer to everything in the US.  The US has gone from a high-standard of living for white people in the 1950s to a low standard for almost all of the former middle class.  Those people are ripe for radical solutions.

 

That's the opening of an eye-opening article in The Atlantic about this.  It's a pay site but I have a free link if anyone wants to take a gander.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/?gift=rC9jnbvALCE5JiLdXLUu6gw6eoxL5cfqdnCwXhUX4ZI&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

[tegs07]

31 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

In the US homelessness is growing. They're often one paycheck from losing everything and a lot of them have just been sacked.

Voting for a bunch of populist billionaires giving themselves tax breaks and slashing public services is not going to help them out much. Which is exactly my point.

[Agent 00Soul]

Just now, tegs07 said:

Voting for a bunch of populist billionaires giving themselves tax breaks and slashing public services is not going to help them out much. Which is exactly my point.

 

Tegs, with all due respect, I think you are thinking about this too rationally.  Lots and lots of people are past the point of politics from the head.  We are in the realm of politics from the gut.  And also for all the links between Andrew Tate and the far-right, the politics from the groin.

[tegs07]

16 minutes ago, Agent 00Soul said:

 

Tegs, with all due respect, I think you are thinking about this too rationally.  Lots and lots of people are past the point of politics from the head.  We are in the realm of politics from the gut.  And also for all the links between Andrew Tate and the far-right, the politics from the groin.

Yes call me a staid old traditionalist but I do think that grown adults should make informed choices and consider the consequences of their actions.

[80Hz]

The American people are not well served by their two party system. The Republicans have been carefully playing identity politics for decades, tying (mainly white) people's sense of their culture and religion tightly to their brand. So to an extent there is no informed choice, because it's your candidate or the other team, and voting for the other would violate your sense of self. So a lot of people don't really think they have a choice - it's very emotional, and as we know, that serves to shut down rationality. Throw social media and misinformation into the mix and, well, here we are.

[edstraker123]

49 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Yes call me a staid old traditionalist but I do think that grown adults should make informed choices and consider the consequences of their actions.

Absolutely right but how do they become informed when people are just fed propaganda and lies ? Where can they go for the truth as its not in mainstream or social media ?

[tegs07]

32 minutes ago, edstraker123 said:

Absolutely right but how do they become informed when people are just fed propaganda and lies ? Where can they go for the truth as its not in mainstream or social media ?

Mainstream media has bias but generally it’s a truth. Other than that I don’t think information has been readily more accessible nor more convenient to access any time in history.

I can access great works of literature, research, poetry, theory, theology, science all while taking a dump.

Edited 6 hours ago by tegs07

[edstraker123]

If the real information is out there why are people ignoring it ? Look at the ridiculous comments on any BBC news story for example( Obviously you can only see the ones they haven't removed as they challenge the agenda or those posted by friendly bots). How many are watching cat videos or Tik Tok while taking a dump not looking at the things you are ?

The realist in me thinks people do a hard days work, sort the kids out, take the dog for a walk , turn on their news channel of choice and believe what they are fed as it aligns with their beliefs. How many have the inclination, time or energy to dig deeper or consider a different view or that things aren't the black and white picture that has been painted ? How many voted for Brexit because of what they saw on the side of the infamous bus - this wasn't the informed choice they thought it was.

 

[prowla]

5 minutes ago, edstraker123 said:

 How many voted for Brexit because of what they saw on the side of the infamous bus - this wasn't the informed choice they thought it was.

 

 

I don't know - how many did vote because of that?

[LowB_FTW]

2 minutes ago, edstraker123 said:

If the real information is out there why are people ignoring it ?

Because of the impending death of critical thinking.

Technology is a double-edged sword for this as it disseminates more information than ever before to us, but that is information overload, and as such the ability to focus on lengthy complex texts is diminishing, simply because we have to wade through so much guff to get to the crux of the matter.

The fact a lot of this stuff is now residing behind paywalls isn't helpful either.

People know who they like, and if a person of influence says something, who are you to argue against them? And if you do argue the point you just get shouted down, so really, what's the point?

Critical thinking is on life support, and it's not gonna get any better.

 

All of this is IMO.

 

Mark