Trump's tariff wars...long post.

[Agent 00Soul]

3 hours ago, Daz39 said:

I’m going to say it, because several politicians have also referred to it to point out the hypocrisy of saying it’s no big deal:

”but her emails…”

 

Here's and article for you about that.  The details leave even more red faces than usual.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2025/03/atlantic-group-chat-military-hegseth-vance-yemen/682166/?gift=rC9jnbvALCE5JiLdXLUu6s8RbaqUDeKIB3dmiqzonJI&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

[Daz39]

4 minutes ago, Agent 00Soul said:

 

Here's and article for you about that.  The details leave even more red faces than usual.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2025/03/atlantic-group-chat-military-hegseth-vance-yemen/682166/?gift=rC9jnbvALCE5JiLdXLUu6s8RbaqUDeKIB3dmiqzonJI&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

I have quite a few american friends on facebook and have read lots about it today. It’s utterly surreal and yet completely believable. Nothing will come of it of note and next week something even dafter will knock this into touch.

[Agent 00Soul]

On 24/03/2025 at 20:39, prowla said:

Aye.

Given that the items were probably manufactured in China regardless, I chose not to patronise the middle-man companies.

 

I hear you.  The CCP taking their dirty laundry here is another reminder of how you ultimately have to pick your battles with the country that makes most of the stuff we buy.  They are even chasing Hong Kongers they don't like all the way to the UK and are acting with the impunity of the producer.  Because they can.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/03/hong-kong-exiles-united-kingdom/682155/?gift=rC9jnbvALCE5JiLdXLUu6mCLAz2qO4r6WqcWOftiihg&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

 

Edited Tuesday at 21:20 by Agent 00Soul

[Downunderwonder]

One one guy on the supposed hoax chat stands there saying it is a hoax. It has to be a hoax unless the rest of the media are too weak to call him out on it by asking others to confirm or deny.

 

What's he going to say at the next interview?

[Misdee]

On 21/03/2025 at 10:13, prowla said:

Russia invading to de-Nazify; that's ironic.

The Russians used half of a swastika on their tanks when they first went in.

Not really.

 

20 million Russians were killed by the Nazis in WW2 and they've never forgotten the role some Ukrainians played in aiding and abetting them. In the collective Russian psyche the treachery of their near- neighbours is very real and still relevant.

 

Much of the long-standing Ukrainian community in the UK are here as a result of the 14th Division of the Waffen SS being given safe haven in Britain after the war. That's particularly controversial because that unit, made up entirely of Ukrainians and a few Poles, was responsible for some of the worst atrocities of the war. Stalin wanted them back so he could execute them. The British shipped them over here from a POW camp in Rimany to protect them. Not surprisingly, when the shocking extent of the Ukrainians exploits on the Easter Front became apparent, the British government wanted to gloss over the whole affair. 

 

The 14th (aka Galicia) SS Division is still celebrated by some Ukrainians in Britain, and  in Ukraine they have become a symbol of Ukrainian nationalism and their mideeds lionized. Ukrainians see this as an act of defiance and provocation to the Russians. Hence Putin's various statements about de-Nazification. 

Edited Tuesday at 22:09 by Misdee

[tegs07]

5 minutes ago, Misdee said:

Not really.

 

20 million Russians were killed by the Nazis in WW2 and they've never forgotten the role some Ukrainians played in aiding and abetting them. In the collective Russian psyche the treachery of their near- neighbours is very real and still relevant.

 

Much of the long-standing Ukrainian community in the UK are here as a result of the 14th Division of the Waffen SS being given safe haven in Britain after the war. That's particularly controversial because that unit, made up entirely of Ukrainians and a few Poles, was responsible for some of the worst atrocities of the war. Stalin wanted them back so he could execute them. The British shipped them over here from a POW camp in Rimany to protect them. Not surprisingly, when the shocking extent of the Ukrainians exploits on the Easter Front became apparent, the British government wanted to gloss over the whole affair. 

 

The 14th (aka Galicia) SS Division is still celebrated by some Ukrainians in Britain, and  in Ukraine they have become a symbol of Ukrainian nationalism and their mideeds are celebrated. Ukrainians see this as an act of defiance and provocation to the Russians. Hence Putin's various statements about de-Nazification. 

Yeah and there is a German bloke on my street and a distinctly Japanese looking guy a couple of streets away. Maybe I would be justified in breaking into their sheds as 80 years ago some distant relative might have bombed our chip shop.

Edited Tuesday at 22:12 by tegs07

[Misdee]

1 hour ago, Agent 00Soul said:

 

That was Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary with a Crusader tattoo on his chest.  In a world of MAGA true believers, there are going to be a lot of "hoaxes."  It's basically anything that comes out of sources they, the Real Americans, hate - in this case journalists.  This particular SNAFU was uncovered by The Atlantic Magazine I believe.  Dating from 1857, The Atlantic is one of the USA's oldest and most venerable political magazines and has been hated by generations of Republicans who have simply written it off as an elitist, liberal, noblesse oblige, snob sheet (which is partially true - I don't think any of their writers were women, Jews, or People of Colour until well into my lifetime).  The MAGA contingent don't even go that far - to everything The Atlantic writes is a lie designed to destabilise the Real Americans.  The New York Times, The Guardian, BBC, and CNN also fit in with this narrative.  Basically 50% of Americans (them the aforementioned Real American MAGA people) feel they have been on the receiving end of a lifetime of disinformation and hoaxes and Trump's slash and burn is saving them.

 

My question is how progressive and conservative Americans are ever going to manage to live together as one nation. Looks like both sides are dug in and are not going anywhere or are changing any minds. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good fight to have but I wonder what happens when it’s over. Or how it even ends at all.  

The thing is, it's easy to blame Trump, MAGA et al, but they haven't created any of this. America was always like this. This lot have just given a large (probably the larger) proportion of the American people a voice and a focus for their grievances. 

 

The litany of questionable things this Trump administration are doing are, by and large, being welcomed by most ordinary Americans. A lot of people are loving it. This is democracy at work, working at dismantling the world's greatest democracy. It's always a big ask to save people from themselves.

 

If people don't like  what's happening in the USA, blame the Democrat Party, in its current state arguably the worst political organisation in the history of political organisations. It is they who have handed Trump  a romping victory not once but twice. There's a tried and tested maxim in political science that opponents don't win elections, governments lose them. That's what has happened in this instance, spectacularly.

Edited Tuesday at 22:40 by Misdee

[Misdee]

40 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Yeah and there is a German bloke on my street and a distinctly Japanese looking guy a couple of streets away. Maybe I would be justified in breaking into their sheds as 80 years ago some distant relative might have bombed our chip shop.

I'm just pointing out why the Russians describe the Ukrainians as Nazis on a regular basis and feel justified in doing so.  I'm sorry if it doesn't suit your preferred narrative but those are the facts.

Edited Tuesday at 22:54 by Misdee

[peteb]

20 minutes ago, Misdee said:

I'm just pointing out why the Russians describe the Ukrainians as Nazis on a regular basis and feel justified in doing so. Those are the facts.

 

I don't think that there is any doubt that there have been Nazis in Ukraine and that some committed atrocities in WW2. However, you could say the same about any Central or Eastern European country, including Russia. Stalin committed many atrocities, both during and in the aftermath of WW2, including (among many others) mass executions of Russian soldiers who had been taken as a prisoner of war by the Nazis. 

 

[Misdee]

7 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

I don't think that there is any doubt that there have been Nazis in Ukraine and that some committed atrocities in WW2. However, you could say the same about any Central or Eastern European country, including Russia. Stalin committed many atrocities, both during and in the aftermath of WW2, including (among many others) mass executions of Russian soldiers who had been taken as a prisoner of war by the Nazis. 

 

You are quite right Pete, but I'm highlighting what's  particularly relevant to Russia's current conflict with Ukraine. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is.

Edited Tuesday at 23:01 by Misdee

[tegs07]

55 minutes ago, Misdee said:

I'm just pointing out why the Russians describe the Ukrainians as Nazis on a regular basis and feel justified in doing so.  I'm sorry if it doesn't suit your preferred narrative but those are the facts.

Im not sure digging into the history books to justify invading another country is a preferred narrative. I’ve heard Putin’s long and convoluted history rambles. It’s nearly as tedious as Trump’s endless ´they’re so mean to us’ whining . Old white guys hey. Can’t they just stick to golf.

Edited Tuesday at 23:21 by tegs07

[peteb]

25 minutes ago, Misdee said:

You are quite right Pete, but I'm highlighting what's  particularly relevant to Russia's current conflict with Ukraine. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is.

 

It's not a question of 'right or wrong', it's a ridiculous narrative from nearly 80 years ago being kept alive as a means of justifying an invasion and an ongoing, damaging war that, until Trump came to power, they had little chance of winning. 

 

[Dad3353]

If we're going down the 'historical back story' route, the 'terrorist' Zionist immigrants that turfed the Palestinien Arabs out of their villages, homes, farms etc at gunpoint can be considered responsable for the 'ill feeling' that most Arabs have towards Israel's administration. Most Palestiniens (several million...) are refugees in camps in neighbouring countries, forbidden to return to their native land. It'll be a very, very long time before those atrocities are pardoned. 

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

If we're going down the 'historical back story' route, 

How about one bullshit turf war relevant sidetrack per thread before this one gets shut down.

[Misdee]

2 hours ago, peteb said:

 

It's not a question of 'right or wrong', it's a ridiculous narrative from nearly 80 years ago being kept alive as a means of justifying an invasion and an ongoing, damaging war that, until Trump came to power, they had little chance of winning. 

 

It might be ridiculous to you, Pete, but its not ridiculous to a lot of people in Russia. That's what matters in this instance 

 

And besides, as I pointed out, Ukrainian nationalists, with the direct collusion and encouragement of their government, have actively sought to keep the memory of the SS Galicia Division alive  as an issue of national pride  in order to antagonise the Russians. It's not solely the Russians who keep referring to the past. The Ukrainians have played their part too. 

Edited Wednesday at 02:16 by Misdee

[Misdee]

2 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

If we're going down the 'historical back story' route, the 'terrorist' Zionist immigrants that turfed the Palestinien Arabs out of their villages, homes, farms etc at gunpoint can be considered responsable for the 'ill feeling' that most Arabs have towards Israel's administration. Most Palestiniens (several million...) are refugees in camps in neighbouring countries, forbidden to return to their native land. It'll be a very, very long time before those atrocities are pardoned. 

I think I see what you mean, Dad.

 

Yes, the world is full of very bitter, intractable conflicts with no apparent satisfactory or peaceful resolution. But when has the world ever been much different in that respect? As General Carl von Clausewitz famously said, war is a continuation of politics by other means.

 

I always think about that scene in 2001 : A Space Odyssey when the ape first  realises a piece of bone can be used a weapon to smash up a rival ape and give him an advantage. Conflict will never end because human beings are genetically programmed to be competitive. Being combative is key to our survival mechanism. Nature uses our aggression to help perpetuate the human species.

Edited Wednesday at 01:59 by Misdee

[Dad3353]

Oh, OK then. For quite some time, I've been thinking it to be a Bad Thing, but I've been wrong all this time, eh..? The World has been a very peaceful place for one heck of a lot of people, over one heck of a lot of centuries. Conflicts, I'd suggest, are not an inevitability, and, when they do arise, are no to be condoned or excused. They hurt a lot of folk. I don't mind that, as long as it's the willing belligerents that get cracked skulls, but when it's the innocent, I can find no justification, and don't believe that it's just Natural. If wars are to happen, let it happen between soldiers. 

Edited Wednesday at 02:39 by Dad3353

[Downunderwonder]

3 hours ago, Misdee said:

Odyssey when the ape first  realises a piece of bone can be used a weapon to smash up a rival ape and give him an advantage. Conflict will never end because human beings are genetically programmed to be competitive. Being combative is key to our survival mechanism. Nature uses our aggression to help perpetuate the human species.

Aggression only gets you so far. The rest comes from cooperation. The borders were drawn up in cooperation so that's where they stood. Aggression came along to get the dirt and a couple of power stations and the rest of the utility renaining after war smashed it all. To get it all back to productivity will take a hell of a lot of cooperation.

 

Aggression can do one.

Peace through strength is quite fine by me.

[TimR]

Journalists have a history of hacking into unsecured systems (see UK's Daily Mail). So the question remains why were they using an non secure system. Why were they using their personal phones.

 

Why was the National Security Advisor using a non Secure System? 

 

Not, Why did a Journalist get invited into a chat? It's quite possible he didn't get invited. And that should be the focus. 

 

 

[Steve Browning]

I'm really not sure about that. Even if he hacked his way into the group, surely their use of non-secure phones allowed that to happen?

 

Even Trumps mob aren't putting that theory forward. 

 

 

[tegs07]

I think it was fairly clear during Trump MK1 that erratic instability was on the agenda for the duration. That was when there were still some adults in charge. To be honest in many ways I am more annoyed with the UK and Europe. This has been brewing for years but the various leaders were complacent and sat on their hands. There is still far more talking and self interest than policy for my liking.

 

Its going to be chaotic and those who look ahead will be using the time for their geopolitical ambitions. 

[tegs07]

3 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

I'm really not sure about that. Even if he hacked his way into the group, surely their use of non-secure phones allowed that to happen?

 

Even Trumps mob aren't putting that theory forward. 

 

 

Indeed. It was simple incompetence from a bunch of not particularly serious people. They all have the whiff of the Johnson about them. Blaggers and opportunists who take short cuts rather than level headed grafters.

Edited Wednesday at 07:21 by tegs07

[SumOne]

I wonder if they deliberately added the journalist - knowing it'd be a way of insulting Europe and making clear they really mean it when they say Europe needs to pay more for defence, but without saying it officially. It possibly plays well with Trump supporters.

 

We're at that stage now - like it has been with Russia for years where there are so many lies and double speak and incompetence that it's really hard to know the truth. Post truth, fake news etc.

Edited Wednesday at 07:58 by SumOne

[SteveXFR]

European leaders should point out that they have more ships defending the Suez canal than the US and that the US are free to withdraw from the area but European naval forces may not be able to defend US owned ships as well.

[Burns-bass]

8 hours ago, tegs07 said:

Im not sure digging into the history books to justify invading another country is a preferred narrative. I’ve heard Putin’s long and convoluted history rambles. It’s nearly as tedious as Trump’s endless ´they’re so mean to us’ whining . Old white guys hey. Can’t they just stick to golf.

Far easier to claim they had a role in a terrorist attack that was perpetrated by Saudi funded, US-based network before invading I guess.