The recorder - woodwind instrument

[bass_dinger]

I recently picked up a recorder - a woodwind instrument.

 

Many of us will have experienced them at primary school.  Cheap instrument, sounds shrill and painful when played badly. Rarely played well.

 

I have a Yamaha with an arched windway, which gave a more mellow tone than the other instrument at a similar price range. 

 

I have found that it is a very sensitive instrument to the skill of the player- blow it too hard, or unevenly, and it will punish one with an unpleasant tone.

 

However, it is an accessible instrument  - a fingering diagram and some music and one can play a tune - usually London's Burning or Twinkle Twinkle Little Star....

 

I also see that the fingering diagrams are different  for (say) A flat and G sharp - because, strictly speaking, they are different notes.

 

Any other recordists on here?

[ahpook]

I was so bad at recorder I used to mime in music lessons at school, so I'd not be told off for playing the wrong note.

[MichaelDean]

I wasn't terrible at recorder, but I didn't stick with it for longer than I needed to. I did attempt clarinet too. I couldn't get my 8/9 year old head around needing to transpose everything.  

 

A previous manager of mine did a music degree on recorder. She said it was so handy just being able to put it in her handbag! 

[ezbass]

The descant recorder is a horrible sounding thing when played badly, the lower pitched recorders are far more pleasant. I’ve always wondered why they have children play the descant or the violin, both sound excruciating in their hands. No wonder so many quit, as did I. 

[Richard R]

20 hours ago, MichaelDean said:

 

A previous manager of mine did a music degree on recorder. She said it was so handy just being able to put it in her handbag! 

 

I must admit, there are times I wish I played piccolo rather than bass.

 

[Rosie C]

23 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

Any other recordists on here?

 

Yep, I play recorder in our band, and currently working towards my grade 4 exam. Mostly descant but with an occasional bit of treble. I have a pair of Adri's Dream recorders which aren't cheap but aren't crazy-expensive either.

 

Re. A# and G♭ etc., I went to a recorder weekend just before covid hit and the course leader explained about being aware if you're playing the third of a chord, and to play a little flat if it's a major chord, and a little sharp if it's a minor chord - which blew my mind musically.

 

Anyway, here is me in our early days of recording music...  

 

 

[pete.young]

2 hours ago, Richard R said:

 

I must admit, there are times I wish I played piccolo rather than bass.

 

A friend has one. Fantastic for rounding up stray dogs.

[Richard R]

2 hours ago, Rosie C said:

the course leader explained about being aware if you're playing the third of a chord, and to play a little flat if it's a major chord, and a little sharp if it's a minor chord - which blew my mind musically.

 

You are going to have to explain that now!

 

[zbd1960]

11 hours ago, Rosie C said:

 

Yep, I play recorder in our band, and currently working towards my grade 4 exam. Mostly descant but with an occasional bit of treble. I have a pair of Adri's Dream recorders which aren't cheap but aren't crazy-expensive either.

 

Re. A# and G♭ etc., I went to a recorder weekend just before covid hit and the course leader explained about being aware if you're playing the third of a chord, and to play a little flat if it's a major chord, and a little sharp if it's a minor chord - which blew my mind musically.

 

Anyway, here is me in our early days of recording music...  

 

 

Correct because in equal temperament the major third is too wide and bordering on being out-of-tune. For enharmonic equivalents, #s should be flatter and bs should be sharper. 

I'm an early music enthusiast, so I play the viol as well, which means consort music. I have a lot of consort music which comes with both viol and recorder parts in the various clefs. 

Edited Thursday at 07:34 by zbd1960

[Rosie C]

37 minutes ago, Richard R said:

 

You are going to have to explain that now!

 

 

I will, in the morning, after coffee.  

 

[Si600]

8 hours ago, Rosie C said:

 

I will, in the morning, after coffee.  

 

It's the morning now, and I've had coffee.  Or covfefe...

 

Your Tambourinist could look a little more enthused to be there though

Edited Thursday at 08:01 by Si600

[Rosie C]

50 minutes ago, Si600 said:

It's the morning now, and I've had coffee.  Or covfefe...

 

 

Let's go back into the midsts of time to Pythagoras... he made an instrument with one single long string on it - much like a bass guitar. He played the open string - let's say it was a C. Then he had an assistant 'fret' it at the 2/3rd and it sounded a G. Then they did 2/3rd again and it played a D. They kept doing this and filled out the scale, and eventually when all 12 tones were played they arrived back at C. Except it didn't, because the octave of any note is 2x the frequency, whereas all those 2/3rd divisions added up to a very slightly different number. This error is called the Phythagorian comma and it's a largely unsolvable problem with musical tuning. Back in the days of Bach and co. they used different tuning systems such as "just intonation", which meant that each key had a different feel (Spinal Tap and "D minor is the saddest of keys" actually has a root in history), and a composer would choose a key for a particular mood. (I think this is why so many classical pieces make a point of including the key in the name - but don't quote me on that!)

 

Skipping forward a little, Victorian factory owners mass producing pianos, they used a tuning called "Equal Temperament" where the tuning was an approximation with most notes a little bit out of tune. It meant you could play a tune in any key and it would sound OK, but you lost the idea of keys having different emotional qualities. Modern instruments that can't play any pitch such as an accordion, piano, organ play equal temperament. Some notes are reasonably in tune, others (as @zbd1960 says) can be quite out, particularly thirds. 

 

Instruments that can vary the pitch - violins & other strings, brass & woodwind with a decent player with embouchure, fretless bass. If you leave a group of these players to their own devices, they'll naturally drop into a tuning that is not equal temperament where the music sounds sweeter. 

 

If this is interesting I can recommend "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony" by Ross Duffin: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0393334201/ 

 

[bass_dinger]

11 hours ago, pete.young said:

A friend has one. Fantastic for rounding up stray dogs.

By playing it, or by using it as a stick to beat them?

[bass_dinger]

1 hour ago, Si600 said:

Your Tambourinist could look a little more enthused to be there though

She is in a state of silent awe, as she admires the tone that a skilled Grade 4 musician can muster from a recorder.  

 

She is also pretty impressed that the recorder player also laid down the octave mandolin and bass guitar tracks too. 

 

That would humble most musicians, especially a percussionist. 

 

An impressive video @Rosie C - I even tried to subscribe to your channel, in the hope of more of the same.

[Rosie C]

3 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

She is in a state of silent awe, as she admires the tone that a skilled Grade 4 musician can muster from a recorder.  

 

 

Oh I wouldn't say that, I only mentioned it to show [some] of us take recorder seriously - grade 4 only puts me in about the same league as 12 year old school kids. I do play recorder at gigs though - it works well for an instrumental verse, and I've mastered tucking it under my arm while playing mandolin. I usually ask the audience whether they played recorder at school - before playing mine through a PA. Muahahaha!

 

I think this was the first video we made, and we're both a bit put off by the camera - I look like I'm reading the music from off-screen, though I'm not. We're working on material now to set up a proper YouTube channel over the next month or two.

Edited Thursday at 12:37 by Rosie C

[KingBollock]

I inherited a couple of Recorders but I really can’t get on with them. I really enjoyed playing when I was a kid, but an incident put an abrupt end to that.

 

I play the Penny Whistle a bit. Badly, but I enjoy it. Finally got around to buying a Clarke Sweetone a few days ago. I think I’m going to give up on trying different ones now. I just really like the Clarke Original.

 

Along similar lines, I own a tiny Ocarina in D, but it is far too shrill to enjoy practising. At some point I hope to get one an octave lower.

[Richard R]

39 minutes ago, Rosie C said:

Let's go back into the midsts of time to Pythagoras

 

Best sentence I will read today.

I knew about equal temperament, but hadn't appreciated that some notes would be consistently out. On reflection it's blindingly obvious!

 

When I get a bit of time, let me explain the horrors that underly the history of bagpipe tuning, and the stupid fingering. It's worth it of course, if only to waken the dead in the cemetery next-door-but-one.

 

 

[zbd1960]

As an early music (i.e. pre-1750) enthusiast, the issue of tuning and temperaments comes up all the time. Equal temperament is a fudge to get around that the maths doesn't quite work. If you stack 8 perfect fifths on top of each other, you should go up 5 octaves, but you don't.... that's the Pythamgorean comma that @Rosie C mentioned. ET has been known about since the 1600s  but it didn't come into a more general use until late in the C19th and primarily for pianos. It is possible to tell from early recordings of pianos made in the late C19th that they were not tuned in ET - which is what everyone assumed until recently.

 

Rose mentioned the book about ET, which I have and it's a useful introduction to the subject. There's also the book "Lies my music teach told me".    

 

There were a lot of alternative temperaments about and that's what Bach's 48 preludes and fugues in the Well Tempered Clavier are about. "Well tempered" is NOT equal temperament but a tuning that plays 'well' in a lot of keys. 

 

The ET fudge is to divide the octave in 12 equal sized semi-tones, which means that they are each the 12th root of 2 apart. The problem is that some of these gaps are bigger than they should be (e.g. the major third) and some are narrower than they should be (e.g. perfect fifth).

 

A surprising example of people that use 'just' intonation is barbershop quartet singers. They do not use ET which is why their chords 'ping' the way they do. 

 

On my viol, the frets are lengths of gut string tied around the neck and then moved into place for tuning. On certain frets, you 'split' the two windings on the fret so that you can play e.g. C# flatter and Db sharper...

 

[Rosie C]

17 minutes ago, zbd1960 said:

As an early music (i.e. pre-1750) enthusiast, the issue of tuning and temperaments comes up all the time. Equal temperament is a fudge to get around that the maths doesn't quite work. If you stack 8 perfect fifths on top of each other, you should go up 5 octaves, but you don't.... that's the Pythamgorean comma that @Rosie C mentioned. ET has been known about since the 1600s  but it didn't come into a more general use until late in the C19th and primarily for pianos. It is possible to tell from early recordings of pianos made in the late C19th that they were not tuned in ET - which is what everyone assumed until recently.

 

Rose mentioned the book about ET, which I have and it's a useful introduction to the subject. There's also the book "Lies my music teach told me".    

 

There were a lot of alternative temperaments about and that's what Bach's 48 preludes and fugues in the Well Tempered Clavier are about. "Well tempered" is NOT equal temperament but a tuning that plays 'well' in a lot of keys. 

 

The ET fudge is to divide the octave in 12 equal sized semi-tones, which means that they are each the 12th root of 2 apart. The problem is that some of these gaps are bigger than they should be (e.g. the major third) and some are narrower than they should be (e.g. perfect fifth).

 

A surprising example of people that use 'just' intonation is barbershop quartet singers. They do not use ET which is why their chords 'ping' the way they do. 

 

On my viol, the frets are lengths of gut string tied around the neck and then moved into place for tuning. On certain frets, you 'split' the two windings on the fret so that you can play e.g. C# flatter and Db sharper...

 

 

Thanks for a clearer explanation than mine!

 

Also, if you ever fancy guesting on viol on recordings of John Playford style ballads, or instrumentals by the likes of Michael Praetorius,  drop me a DM!  

 

Edited Thursday at 12:36 by Rosie C

[Richard R]

1 hour ago, zbd1960 said:

"Well tempered" is NOT equal temperament but a tuning that plays 'well' in a lot of keys. 

I didn't know that, I always assumed it was the same thing with a different name.

 

[zbd1960]

2 hours ago, Rosie C said:

 

Thanks for a clearer explanation than mine!

 

Also, if you ever fancy guesting on viol on recordings of John Playford style ballads, or instrumentals by the likes of Michael Praetorius,  drop me a DM!  

 

Actually, your explanation was pretty good - I tend to get too technical....

 

Thank you for the offer - I only have tenor viol these days as I sold my bass viol before the house move. Playford and Praetorius are good 🙂

[zbd1960]

1 hour ago, Richard R said:

I didn't know that, I always assumed it was the same thing with a different name.

 

Yes, it's a common misconception. Bach knew about ET but didn't like it. He devised his own temperament which is what he used on his own harpsichords. Unfortunately, there is no record of 'what' it was. There were 'well tempered' tunings. There are various rabbit holes you can go down looking into this subject.

 

Early Music Source is a good channel for sensible discussion on these things, e.g. 

 

[bass_dinger]

Yamaha have a good resource  - a Web page that allows one to select a note on a stave, which produces a diagram of the relevant fingering

https://www.yamaha.com/en/musical_instrument_guide/recorder/play/play002.html

 

As for this video, 

On 05/02/2025 at 19:41, Rosie C said:

 

Anyway, here is me in our early days of recording music...  

 

 

...that pure tone is what attracted me to the instrument - sweet, woody, dry (very few overtones and no vibrato). 

 

However, I am struggling to get that sound.  My fingers don't cover the holes consistently, my breath control gives  wavering notes, and my playing doesn't feel as in-control as yours.

 

I have a friend who teaches recorder, so, I will approach her for a couple of technical lessons.  But first I must learn (memorise) the fingerings, so that I better understand what my difficulties are. 

 

I am encouraged to play more.

 

PS where can I find the sheet music for that Tielman piece of music?

Edited Friday at 08:05 by bass_dinger

[Rosie C]

1 hour ago, bass_dinger said:

Yamaha have a good resource  - a Web page that allows one to select a note on a stave, which produces a diagram of the relevant fingering

https://www.yamaha.com/en/musical_instrument_guide/recorder/play/play002.html

 

As for this video, 

...that pure tone is what attracted me to the instrument - sweet, woody, dry (very few overtones and no vibrato). 

 

However, I am struggling to get that sound.  My fingers don't cover the holes consistently, my breath control gives  wavering notes, and my playing doesn't feel as in-control as yours.

 

I have a friend who teaches recorder, so, I will approach her for a couple of technical lessons.  But first I must learn (memorise) the fingerings, so that I better understand what my difficulties are. 

 

I am encouraged to play more.

 

PS where can I find the sheet music for that Tielman piece of music?

 

Thanks for your kind words about my recorder tone! Much of the tone is from the instrument - a Mollenhauer Adri's Dream, wooden and modelled on renaissance-era recorders. As well as having a sweet tone, it's quite loud, so I don't have to blow too hard. I have another wooden recorder -a Moeck Tuju but it's more like a traditional school recorder. 

 

"I am encouraged to play more."   <<< this is fantastic!

 

& I'll PM you the music we're playing in the video... 

 

 

Edited Friday at 08:52 by Rosie C

[Richard R]

3 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

a Web page that allows one to select a note on a stave, which produces a diagram of the relevant fingering

 

Let's get the inevitable of the way and never revisit it again:

Jaco would have only needed four holes.