What really impacts on your bass tone?

[Terry M.]

My unscientific theory is that this "fuller and rounder" sound with high action is achievable with a low action and a turn of the volume knob. I've never noticed a difference in tone before and after a set up where the action has been significantly lowered. 

[neepheid]

7 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

There's a couple of Spectre Sound Studio videos where Glenn demonstrates the total lack of difference in guitar pickups, while making absolutely and completely clear that he's talking about heavily distorted guitars playing metal. And yet he still gets people complaining that the pickups sound different when played without distortion, which wasn't his point.

 

Low End Lobster does a few comparisons between different ranges of bass with different pickups, eg the Ibanez EHB series with Bart BH2s on the low end ones and Nordstrands on the top of the range (although there's now another range with Fishman pickups), and also the same basses after he's changed the pickups. Pickups will colour the sound to a greater or lesser extent - I would say that the ideal is a pickup that doesn't significantly colour the sound, so you can add colour of your own. That means it's got to put out a full range of sound pretty evenly, not be weak at the bottom or top end, because you can always take away but you can't add what isn't there. Alternatively, you get a pickup which is pre-coloured the way you want it, though that then limits the range of sounds you can get from it.

 

With respect, I don't care about guitar stuff, and while Glenn is fun, Glenn is Glenn-ing all the way to the bank.  I do so enjoy his videos where he rips into the stupid comments he receives, but he also kinda has to make the comments happen, for the videos to happen?  LEL is quite the modder herself, if anything she's inspired me down the path of considered modding.  I mean there's no point if it doesn't bring anything new to the table, but I'm in the "it does, if you choose the right pickup" camp.

 

However, I rewatched the section about pickup swapping in the video we are discussing and I'm even more convinced that it was a myopic, awful example which has been spun out to mean all "swapping pickups BAD/POINTLESS", mostly because it was covering a quite complicated subject in a few minutes.

 

You make a fair point that we're all looking for different things, but how do you find out what you want?  Learn by doing, I say.

 

There's more to it than than just the pickup itself anyway - what if you swap from a 2 wire humbucker to a 4 wire humbucker to open up the possibilities of switching between parallel and series (or single coil)?  Is anyone going to seriously tell me that switching from series to parallel won't be detected by even the most uneducated of ears?  It'll even look different in the waveform.  Say what you want about that not strictly speaking the pickup per se, but you would have had to swap the pickup to open up these possibilities (or do some horrible, ill-advised surgery on the pickup you have).

 

The pickup swaps I've done which have made the most difference (while keeping within their criteria of the same form factor):

 

Epi Les Paul bass: stock pickups > EMG-HB > DiMarzio X2N-B

G4M "rat" bass: stock pickup > Lace Aluma P

Squier Jaguar H: stock pickup > Ibanez CAP quad coil double humbucker (as found in the ATK810 etc.)

 

Most disappointing swap ever has to be in my Sire D5 - I got the opportunity to try a Herrick multicoil pickup.  I was so disappointed - I had high hopes for this radically different pickup (one coil per string in a single coil P pickup package) and never mind the reduction in output (that's what the gain knob on your amp is for) it was so anonymous and flat sounding that it just made me miss the stock pickup in the D5 (which is mid focused to all hell and back, but at least it has character!)

 

And yes, live in a mix, bass be bassy, yo.  But I want my basses to have a punchy, thick sound, defined but loud bottom end, yet able to tease out highs when necessary.  EQ can only take you so far.  

 

TL:DR - I still think that portion of the video is lightweight in the extreme and sends a frankly incorrect, oversimplified message.  However, I do think that beginners shouldn't even be considering swapping pickups until they get good, because swapping a pickup isn't going to improve your playing one jot.  The bitter voice of experience talking here.  If that was the point of the video, then that's fair enough, but it could have been explained better.

[Rodders]

15 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

 

 

 

Not so. It's simple to use a wireless or even a long lead during sound-check to go for a walk and check the sound from a variety of locations in a venue. I do it all the time. You don't need to guess or be experienced in "how your bass sound reproduces in different rooms" when you can hear it for yourself. Problems will usually be obvious - too much/not enough low/mids/highs, more/less volume required and so on. Most amp heads have plenty enough variation in  eq settings to get a decent result. I'm struggling to understand why so many find it a problem to ensure they blend well with the other musicians and the room. It seems so basic.

 

 

I've found I almost always need to adjust my EQ between sound check and the start of the gig, because most often you are sound checking in an empty room and (hopefully!) the room will be full of people at the start and throughout the gig, which obviously affects how you as an individual (as well as considering bass is omnidirectional) and the rest of the band as a whole, sound. 

Not disagreeing in any way just adding another point to hopefully reinforce and further illustrate yours.  

[tauzero]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

What is and isn't there is mostly down to position (which determines the harmonics available) and the pickup design (wide vs narrow, single vs double coil).

 

And electrical characteristics, as a pickup is inductive, resistive, and IIRC slightly capacitive too.

[Stub Mandrel]

9 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

And electrical characteristics, as a pickup is inductive, resistive, and IIRC slightly capacitive too.

 

Yes but they rarely eliminate the signal at any frequency, so you can boost it with eq. Even mudbuckers owe most of their sound to their position and  the large length of string they work over.

[tauzero]

4 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Yes but they rarely eliminate the signal at any frequency, so you can boost it with eq. Even mudbuckers owe most of their sound to their position and  the large length of string they work over.

 

But different pickups of the same overall construction sound different, otherwise people wouldn't (say) stick DiMarzios in Fenders.

[casapete]

21 hours ago, Rodders said:

I've found I almost always need to adjust my EQ between sound check and the start of the gig, because most often you are sound checking in an empty room and (hopefully!) the room will be full of people at the start and throughout the gig, which obviously affects how you as an individual (as well as considering bass is omnidirectional) and the rest of the band as a whole, sound. 

Absolutely this. When I was playing in large theatres, our PA guy used to say that everything changed when

‘The meat baffles’ had filled the room. 😆

[Mrbigstuff]

23 hours ago, Terry M. said:

My unscientific theory is that this "fuller and rounder" sound with high action is achievable with a low action and a turn of the volume knob. I've never noticed a difference in tone before and after a set up where the action has been significantly lowered. 

The volume knob can’t change your sound, it’s either quieter or louder. Of course it’s horses for courses but if players like John Patitucci, Anthony Jackson and Janek Gwizdala think raising action has an affect, it probably does!

[Minininjarob]

40 minutes ago, Mrbigstuff said:

The volume knob can’t change your sound, it’s either quieter or louder. Of course it’s horses for courses but if players like John Patitucci, Anthony Jackson and Janek Gwizdala think raising action has an affect, it probably does!

I tried a lower action to make it easier for my left hand but I found I had to play softer to avoid crazy fret buzz so raised it again. When you want to slam that open E with a pick at just the right moment in a song the buzz just took away, errr, the buzz….. 

[Terry M.]

1 hour ago, Mrbigstuff said:

The volume knob can’t change your sound, it’s either quieter or louder. Of course it’s horses for courses but if players like John Patitucci, Anthony Jackson and Janek Gwizdala think raising action has an affect, it probably does!

The 3 individuals you mention are just 3 individuals with an opinion. Anthony Jackson apparently uses a low action,as does Victor Wooton,as did Jaco Pastorius and countless others. Just do what works for you. It really doesn't matter what works for anybody else whether famous or not.

[Terry M.]

52 minutes ago, Minininjarob said:

I tried a lower action to make it easier for my left hand but I found I had to play softer to avoid crazy fret buzz so raised it again. When you want to slam that open E with a pick at just the right moment in a song the buzz just took away, errr, the buzz….. 

Low action has to work in conjunction with individual technique. Buzzing is generally accepted as TOO low unless it's a part of one's sound. I find buzz intolerable so the action needs to be low but just outside of Buzz City. It works for many people but again, technique comes into play. And then some basses are easier to achieve this than others. Lakland basses (for example) are great for low action fans.

I don't use them but there must be a reason ramps are popular to those who choose them.

Edited 4 hours ago by Terry M.

[JoeEvans]

I think the thing with low action is that it goes with softer playing - you can't play as hard with very low action, and playing harder definitely changes your tone.

[Stub Mandrel]

10 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

But different pickups of the same overall construction sound different, otherwise people wouldn't (say) stick DiMarzios in Fenders.

 

Yes but not very different and you can usually eq out the differences

[Stub Mandrel]

47 minutes ago, JoeEvans said:

I think the thing with low action is that it goes with softer playing - you can't play as hard with very low action, and playing harder definitely changes your tone.

 

Low action lets you change your sound more easily.  you can go from a rounded tone to Entwistle clank.

[PaulWarning]

I do wonder how many of these changes would be noticeable in a live band situation.

I always remeber asking my partner what my bass sounded like after I played a gig with a different Bass, amp and speakers,  "it sounded like a bass" she replied 😂

[Terry M.]

I noticed that dropping from a 130 gauge B string to 120 along with my light touch and low action gave me NO less fundamental whatsoever. Just my experience. So it's been 40-120 for me ever since. 

[Terry M.]

3 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

I do wonder how many of these changes would be noticeable in a live band situation.

I always remeber asking my partner what my bass sounded like after I played a gig with a different Bass, amp and speakers,  "it sounded like a bass" she replied 😂

Valid point 👍

My set up gives me the most comfort which in turn enhances the playing experience and inspires me without worrying about fatigue over longer playing periods.

Edited 1 hour ago by Terry M.

[Lozz196]

11 minutes ago, Terry M. said:

Valid point 👍

My set up gives me the most comfort which in turn enhances the playing experience and inspires me without worrying about fatigue over longer playing periods.

That’s my new approach. For years I’ve really dug in and played hard but over that period the hands have taken a battering so lighter strings, thinner pick, lower action from now on.

[chris_b]

I don't dig in. My days of exuberant overplaying have long gone.

 

I used to take the strings down till they buzzed and then raised them until thy didn't. Then I had a "forensic" set up from the Bass Gallery, where they reduced the action even further. At first I couldn't play the bass, but after working on my technique, that's I prefer all my basses.

Edited 1 hour ago by chris_b

[Terry M.]

Just now, chris_b said:

 Then I had a "forensic" set up from the Bass Gallery, where they reduced the action even further.

These guys do ALL my set ups. Forensic is an excellent description of their set up work. I'm not sure how they achieve it but I'm glad they do. Martin and John are NOT allowed to ever retire 😂

[Terry M.]

11 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I don't dig in. My days of exuberant overplaying have long gone.

You can still play exuberantly and overplay without digging in. In fact I think it's easier to 😊

[Mickeyboro]

I used a different setup to what I have ever used before last night. Not a peep!

[peteb]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

I used to take the strings down till they buzzed and then raised them until thy didn't.

 

That's how I used to set-up my basses, but these days I have a touch more relief in the neck, which (for me) makes the bass come alive. Unfortunately, I have overdone it on my P bass and the action is going to have to come down. It sounds great, but it's going to be too tiring to play a whole gig with it like that.