Selling with no buyers

[Agent 00Soul]

Reverb etc are loaded with cool old/vintage instruments, some priced to "market value" (which is still a lot of money - like a 1990s ES-335 for 2500GPB or a Rick 330-12 from the same decade at 2100GBP) and others at rock star-only prices (1964 Fender Jag for 6000GBP).  Yet neither seem to sell very often.  I have several instruments and also amps in my feed that I've been watching for years out of interest without a bite among them.  What's going on?  Are people hoping that one of the few rich musicians left is going to see that your item is "the one" and buy it?  How long do you expect to list high-dollar, but still market value, stuff before it sells?  Is the term market value even legit these days?  I ask because I have a decent collection myself of instruments and boutique amps that are worth something on paper, some of which were new when I bought them but are vintage now, that I imagine I'm going to have to start downsizing within the next decade.

Edited Monday at 14:24 by Agent 00Soul

[TimR]

The way it was explained to me was:

 

If you are a shop, your inventory costs you money, you're paying for floor space, you're probably paying for a loan to purchase the stock. If you have an item that isn't selling, its making a loss. You have no emotional attachnent to the gear. You're better off dropping the price and getting rid of it and buying something else with the money, that's more likely to sell for a profit.

 

If you are an individual, you probably don't have a loan on that specific piece of gear (but you may have a credit card bill for other gear) and you won't be equating floor space in your house as costing you money (it is, you are paying to run your house). The costs are hidden and it's not so urgent you clear the space and sell the gea unless you need the space for something else. You also will be emotionally attached to a piece of gear. 

 

It only really becomes an issue when you run out of space at home and need to declutter, or the bailifs come round...

[Agent 00Soul]

40 minutes ago, Agent 00Soul said:

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 14:23 by Agent 00Soul
double post

[Agent 00Soul]

25 minutes ago, TimR said:

It only really becomes an issue when you run out of space at home and need to declutter, or the bailifs come round...

 

In an instance like that, do you think it would be better to find a vintage guitar shop that takes commission and suck up the lower price just to get it into as many more serious eyes/testing hands as possible?

 

Edited Monday at 14:28 by Agent 00Soul

[SimonK]

38 minutes ago, TimR said:

It only really becomes an issue when you run out of space at home and need to declutter, or the bailifs come round...

 

There's been a bunch of news stories today about fake bailifs - my plan would be to give them a Trace Elliot cab to guarantee they never came back following whatever back injury they give themselves... 😮 !

[JJMotown]

I thought this was about ebay charging buyers to buy stuff in ebay. Online shopping is going crazy 🤪 

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, Agent 00Soul said:

Reverb etc are loaded with cool old/vintage instruments, some priced to "market value" (which is still a lot of money - like a 1990s ES-335 for 2500GPB or a Rick 330-12 from the same decade at 2100GBP) and others at rock star-only prices (1964 Fender Jag for 6000GBP).  Yet neither seem to sell very often.  I have several instruments and also amps in my feed that I've been watching for years out of interest without a bite among them.  What's going on?  Are people hoping that one of the few rich musicians left is going to see that your item is "the one" and buy it?  How long do you expect to list high-dollar, but still market value, stuff before it sells?  Is the term market value even legit these days?  I ask because I have a decent collection myself of instruments and boutique amps that are worth something on paper, some of which were new when I bought them but are vintage now, that I imagine I'm going to have to start downsizing within the next decade.

 

Private sellers assume they can achieve sale prices you'd get in shops. You also get people who consider themselves to be "dealers" – buying and selling to make a profit on what once was a thriving and growing market.

 

In both cases, they tend to massively overprice gear and fail to sell it. Then they complain about a slow market.

 

Private sales should be about 60-70% of shop prices. 

 

The market for instrument sales is falling, especially at the top end. What were once reasonably priced older guitars are now fetishised as artisan pieces of handmade luthiery, not the factory made, mass produced utility items they always were. It's BS in the end, but humans are dumb. (I say this as someone with vintage guitars!)

[80Hz]

I enjoy Mark from Gary's Guitars commentary on the used gear market. Yes he's talking about the US, but I think a lot is relevant here in the UK too, and he has the perspective of a traditional bricks 'n mortar retailer.

 

 

 

[Mrbigstuff]

2 hours ago, Agent 00Soul said:

Reverb etc are loaded with cool old/vintage instruments, some priced to "market value" (which is still a lot of money - like a 1990s ES-335 for 2500GPB or a Rick 330-12 from the same decade at 2100GBP) and others at rock star-only prices (1964 Fender Jag for 6000GBP).  Yet neither seem to sell very often.  I have several instruments and also amps in my feed that I've been watching for years out of interest without a bite among them.  What's going on?  Are people hoping that one of the few rich musicians left is going to see that your item is "the one" and buy it?  How long do you expect to list high-dollar, but still market value, stuff before it sells?  Is the term market value even legit these days?  I ask because I have a decent collection myself of instruments and boutique amps that are worth something on paper, some of which were new when I bought them but are vintage now, that I imagine I'm going to have to start downsizing within the next decade.

Simple. Price it too high and you limit your market size. Price low and you will increase your market size but attract buyers who foresee potential uplift when they flip it - nothing wrong with that if you’re happy to sell for the price.

[Burns-bass]

25 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

Simple. Price it too high and you limit your market size. Price low and you will increase your market size but attract buyers who foresee potential uplift when they flip it - nothing wrong with that if you’re happy to sell for the price.

What we’re seeing is a sort of collective mania where dealers increase the prices of stuff like 70s Precisions. 
 

Private buyers snap them up and when the often fail to live up to expectations, list them at a small fraction under their purchase price.

 

Dealers see this and consider if the second band market can cover it, they’ll ask for even more in their shops.

 

And on and on it goes.

 

 

[SimonK]

The other thing is people pricing something at what they value it for, rather than what the market will give. I'm kicking myself for not getting a screenshot last week to illustrate this, but there were two identical Trace Elliot 2x10 cabs on Facebook Marketplace, one priced at £40 and the other at £260. Needless to say I jumped in the car and bought the £40 cab, and the other is still languishing on market place. As a bit of a Trace Elliot collector it does amuse (and slightly sadden) me how much some people list things for, especially when I know I have the exact same item that I picked up for often a hundreth of some asking prices:

 

 

[Mrbigstuff]

28 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

What we’re seeing is a sort of collective mania where dealers increase the prices of stuff like 70s Precisions. 
 

Private buyers snap them up and when the often fail to live up to expectations, list them at a small fraction under their purchase price.

 

Dealers see this and consider if the second band market can cover it, they’ll ask for even more in their shops.

 

And on and on it goes.

 

 

Yes that’s definitely been an issue with vintage Fenders, and there’s the slightly weird situation where despite there being lots of dealers now, they compete by charging highest prices - often with a tag line of you’ll never find another like this - for the mass produced item they’re selling 😂

[kodiakblair]

33 minutes ago, SimonK said:

I'm kicking myself for not getting a screenshot last week to illustrate this, but there were two identical Trace Elliot 2x10 cabs on Facebook Marketplace, one priced at £40 and the other at £260.

Must have been something in the water last week, I spotted a Westone Thunder III listed for a mere £1400 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Burns-bass]

13 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

Yes that’s definitely been an issue with vintage Fenders, and there’s the slightly weird situation where despite there being lots of dealers now, they compete by charging highest prices - often with a tag line of you’ll never find another like this - for the mass produced item they’re selling 😂

It may seem like I’m dumping on vintage Fenders, I’m not, it’s just this instrument where it’s so obvious. You can see it with Walls, too, and KSD basses as well. 
 

Am I jealous I don’t own these instruments? Probably a bit of that, but prices do seem ludicrous at the mo.

[SimonK]

It does generally seem to be a great time to be a buyer, however I'm sitting on all sorts of things that I can't be bothered to sell because conversly the money isn't really worth the effort. It feels a real waste in a way because I think someone could be using the kit (mostly pedals, amps and cabs) but for the odd £20, £50 or even £100 the effort to sell is greater than my desire for the money - but maybe I'm just a spoiled brat...

 

Thus said I saw this on here yesterday - https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/508714-black-big-muff-russian-circa-20034ish-£140-posted/ - I didn't want to piss on the guys sale so haven't posted anything, but I picked up exactly the same pedal for £20 fully working a few years back!

[Bassybert]

2 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

What were once reasonably priced older guitars are now fetishised as artisan pieces of handmade luthiery, not the factory made, mass produced utility items they always were.

This hits the nail squarely on the head for me. These were/are mass produced items designed to be created quickly and as efficiently as possible. The price of vintage gear is insane and I’m more than happy to let other people pay those prices 😂

 

On a serious note though, in a purely functional/quality way modern instruments (especially lower end models) are as good if not better than a lot of vintage gear.

 

I’ve played a few older bases worth a fair bit and the prices they’re commanding don’t correlate to the quality of the instrument, but to the rarity or exclusivity factor. That’s what you’re paying for IMHO. 

[neepheid]

20 minutes ago, SimonK said:

Thus said I saw this on here yesterday - https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/508714-black-big-muff-russian-circa-20034ish-£140-posted/ - I didn't want to piss on the guys sale so haven't posted anything, but I picked up exactly the same pedal for £20 fully working a few years back!

 

I would say that is quite the unusual occurrence, so while I congratulate you on your good fortune, it would tick me off if someone used that example to try and lean on me in a haggle.

[SimonK]

41 minutes ago, neepheid said:

 

I would say that is quite the unusual occurrence, so while I congratulate you on your good fortune, it would tick me off if someone used that example to try and lean on me in a haggle.

 

I'm not haggling, and I'm not going anywhere near that sale thread - thing is I don't actually think that pedal is much good, or worth more than about £50 max, so if he can get three times that price good on him, although I suspect he will illustrate the OP's post. Thus said I'm not convinced the second hand market is any different from how it has always been - priced right anything will sell, priced wrong it won't. Mind you as time goes on I do think more and more music kit is becoming available second hand simply because more has been made over time. Thirty years ago it was all about Boss pedals and Fender guitars, now the options seem endless!

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, SimonK said:

Thus said I saw this on here yesterday - https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/508714-black-big-muff-russian-circa-20034ish-£140-posted/ - I didn't want to piss on the guys sale so haven't posted anything, but I picked up exactly the same pedal for £20 fully working a few years back!

 

Well, yes, but you are always going to get bargains here or there, it doesn't make that the price of the item. It wasn't so long ago that many things were very cheap.

My Gibson Les Paul cost me just over £300 a few years ago, other prices weren't as bad as they are now.

And as you say yourself, if I had something that was selling at £140 I might be bothered to sell it, if it was £20, I couldn't be bothered to wrap it. That would keep the average price high. 

[neepheid]

25 minutes ago, SimonK said:

 

I'm not haggling, and I'm not going anywhere near that sale thread - thing is I don't actually think that pedal is much good, or worth more than about £50 max, so if he can get three times that price good on him, although I suspect he will illustrate the OP's post. Thus said I'm not convinced the second hand market is any different from how it has always been - priced right anything will sell, priced wrong it won't. Mind you as time goes on I do think more and more music kit is becoming available second hand simply because more has been made over time. Thirty years ago it was all about Boss pedals and Fender guitars, now the options seem endless!

 

I never said you were, that's why I said "if" and "someone" - it's hypothetical.  I'm not accusing you of anything.

[Dan Dare]

It's always been the case that people tend to over-estimate the value of what they own, be it musical instruments, cars or whatever. The rough rule that the value of a decent used item (excluding genuinely vintage/rare) is around half new retail price holds true much of the time..

[JoeEvans]

I think that in any market you tend to get sellers offering a spread of prices to try and work out what the market will bear, but the items that are priced too high don't sell, so you notice them, whereas the bargains get snapped up pretty quick, often before they even reach a public platform.

[edstraker123]

Well I know Rimmers music don't over estimate the market value of instruments - I was buying a new Keyboard last week and asked for a trade in price for a 2 week old Fender American Pro2 Precision and a roland Aerophone Ae20 - they offered me £600 for both !  PMT price matched so I bought the keyboard from them without px. Rimmer's stupidity/greed lost them a sale.

The sax sold on ebay for £500 within minutes of listing it.

[uk_lefty]

The thing with shop prices is also that consumers have rights, even on second hand gear, and can bring stuff back and complain. I would feel safer buying from a shop I can take a faulty item back to than buying from a private individual on eBay or wherever, that has value in the pricing too. 

 

But generally at the moment prices to sell gear at are terrible. It is difficult to shift stuff without taking a hit and has been for quite some time. Also, you get the idiots who expect something for nothing, making offers at way, way under the asking price or buying something to only complain. I had the misfortune of two of these cretins at the same time on eBay, one trying to claim that a screw missing off the battery compartment of a pedal was a massive, massive issue, and the other trying to claim that the speaker of an amp had been disconnected through rough handling and improper packing. Both were just trying to screw a load of their money back from me. Not worth the aggro.

[Agent 00Soul]

Sounds like market value means much less than it did.