Selling with no buyers

[Bassybert]

Or maybe the market’s flooded and we’ve all got way too much gear than we’ll ever need 😂

[prowla]

17 hours ago, JJMotown said:

I thought this was about ebay charging buyers to buy stuff in ebay. Online shopping is going crazy 🤪 

 

I've given up on eBay - I'm not going to pay them a "protection fee" when they're endorsing the sale of counterfeit items.

[prowla]

18 hours ago, Agent 00Soul said:

Reverb etc are loaded with cool old/vintage instruments, some priced to "market value" (which is still a lot of money - like a 1990s ES-335 for 2500GPB or a Rick 330-12 from the same decade at 2100GBP) and others at rock star-only prices (1964 Fender Jag for 6000GBP).  Yet neither seem to sell very often.  I have several instruments and also amps in my feed that I've been watching for years out of interest without a bite among them.  What's going on?  Are people hoping that one of the few rich musicians left is going to see that your item is "the one" and buy it?  How long do you expect to list high-dollar, but still market value, stuff before it sells?  Is the term market value even legit these days?  I ask because I have a decent collection myself of instruments and boutique amps that are worth something on paper, some of which were new when I bought them but are vintage now, that I imagine I'm going to have to start downsizing within the next decade.

 

Reverb asking prices are always a bit "optimistic" and I'm not sure that they define "market value", as opposed to what similar items are genuinely selling for.

[Agent 00Soul]

16 minutes ago, Bassybert said:

Or maybe the market’s flooded and we’ve all got way too much gear than we’ll ever need 😂

Good point - the generations who were really into gear are in the downsizing era of their lives now, or soon will be. And the younger ones don’t fetishise gear as much (a good thing IMHO) and could never afford this stuff anyway so never developed as strong an attachment maybe. 
 

Either way, it sounds like the numbers of market value are hugely inflated. And they don’t tell you how long an item was for sale before some person with money showed up. 

[Beedster]

27 minutes ago, Agent 00Soul said:

Good point - the generations who were really into gear are in the downsizing era of their lives now, or soon will be. And the younger ones don’t fetishise gear as much (a good thing IMHO) and could never afford this stuff anyway so never developed as strong an attachment maybe. 
 

Either way, it sounds like the numbers of market value are hugely inflated. And they don’t tell you how long an item was for sale before some person with money showed up. 

 

There's also the simple fact that manufacturers such as Sire are producing <£500 instruments that are by all accounts as good as if not better than many vintage basses that can - currently - command >£3k. I've recently got rid of all my vintage instruments, having for a long time preferred to build and work with Fender-alike bitsas that I can chop and change until they're perfect, often again >£500 for a quality instrument. Don't get me wrong, I love the mojo of vintage instruments for sure, but I suspect that in the 2020s the economics of vintage increasingly don't make sense for musicians as distinct from collectors and dealers.

[SurroundedByManatees]

Even very decently priced stuff doesn't seem to move easily. Like the fretless '76 rickenbacker with ohsc for £1900 on here. I have expected it to move pretty quick tbh... 

 

The prices on the used market have rocketed in the last years. But the same has for new instruments. It's totally normal to see a MiM Fender (roadworn signature) at €1600+ new... Music Man stuff has doubled... It all reflects in the prices for used stuff too.

 

And of course there is the vintage market. I love vintage basses or semi vintage basses with some historical interesting aspects, and am aware that a huge part of the price is in the authenticity, era-specific etc. Until a certain point I'm happy to pay a premium for that "mojo". Like I prefer original pressings of vinyl records and pay a bit extra in favor of a reissue.

 

As said in an earlier post; most cheaper basses built nowadays will be technically better built than most vintage (Fender especially) basses. Personally I've seen squier affinity basses that had a tighter built quality than any 60s Fender I've held in my hands. The oldies we're all nice, but from a practical view not 6k nicer than an good American standard or similar.

 

I'm surprised you can still see the asking prices for late 70s Fenders rise, with many being listed at €3500-€4000. Most of them are so poorly built (fit & finish), you wouldn't even accept it from a €100 bass if bought new. 

Edited Tuesday at 09:56 by SurroundedByManatees

[Agent 00Soul]

39 minutes ago, Beedster said:

I've recently got rid of all my vintage instruments

 

How did you do that?  Ebay/Reverb/Facebook, consignment/sale to a shop, private sale?

[Beedster]

Just now, Agent 00Soul said:

 

How did you do that?  Ebay/Reverb/Facebook, consignment/sale to a shop, private sale?

 

Sold them on here mostly 👍

[Woodinblack]

7 hours ago, Beedster said:

There's also the simple fact that manufacturers such as Sire are producing <£500 instruments that are by all accounts as good as if not better than many vintage basses that can - currently - command >£3k. 

 

Well, the vintage basses that people are paying 3k+ for aren't because they are better basses its because they have a value due to their age or perceived rarity. It doesn't matter how bad a 1960s jazz bass is, its still going to be worth a lot of money even if it is virtually unplayable.

[Burns-bass]

36 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Well, the vintage basses that people are paying 3k+ for aren't because they are better basses its because they have a value due to their age or perceived rarity. It doesn't matter how bad a 1960s jazz bass is, its still going to be worth a lot of money even if it is virtually unplayable.

im pretty sure Chris knows that. I this his point was that for many people, vintage basses don’t live up to the hype…

[Beedster]

45 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Well, the vintage basses that people are paying 3k+ for aren't because they are better basses its because they have a value due to their age or perceived rarity. It doesn't matter how bad a 1960s jazz bass is, its still going to be worth a lot of money even if it is virtually unplayable.

I suspect you’re missing the point of the OP and several other posters 👍

[Beedster]

8 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

im pretty sure Chris knows that. I this his point was that for many people, vintage basses don’t live up to the hype…

Ha ha, indeed mate. I think the subtext here is the market for these basses being in part generational both emotionally and economically, may be about to peak, or might have already done so 👍

[chriswareham]

Reverb started as a very US centric website, and in many ways it still is. What people outside the US often miss is that in the US people expect to be able to haggle and pay less than the listed price. That's true of things that would have no chance of being sold for less than the asking price in places like Europe. So a lot of the prices on Reverb reflect the starting point the seller expects to have to take offers below. People who do not understand this then think "wow, my <insert item> is worth <insert price>".

 

The other problem, and one that is true of websites like eBay as well as Reverb is when researching prices sellers usually look at the current listings. They rarely look at the sold listings to see what people are actually likely to pay. When I'm looking to sell something I check the sold listings, and then price at the high end of what the item has sold at but with the option for people to make offers. Then of course you get the chancers saying "it's only worth half what you've listed it for mate", (and it always invariably has that "mate" at the end of a sentence like they're doing me a favour). I just ignore the chancers and hope they see the item's actual sold price when it invariably sells at the list price or just below.

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, chriswareham said:

The other problem, and one that is true of websites like eBay as well as Reverb is when researching prices sellers usually look at the current listings

 

Agreed, although Reverb have decent functionality around previous sale prices that can be hit and miss with eBay.

 

Re dealers, the whole game is smoke and mirrors, they indicate a sale price, and then indicate 'sold', so you're led to assume that it sold for the price in question....

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

 

Agreed, although Reverb have decent functionality around previous sale prices that can be hit and miss with eBay.

 

Re dealers, the whole game is smoke and mirrors, they indicate a sale price, and then indicate 'sold', so you're led to assume that it sold for the price in question....

Or the owner who was selling on commission asked for it back.

 

Apparently most of the vintage guitar shops predominantly sell commission items. Makes sense that they wouldn’t want millions in stock hanging around.

 

Also explains why they’re often very reticent to accept trade ins.

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, Beedster said:

Ha ha, indeed mate. I think the subtext here is the market for these basses being in part generational both emotionally and economically, may be about to peak, or might have already done so 👍

 

I'm not sure it will peak any time soon. Musical instruments, like art, classic cars and other desirable items that are in limited supply (I'm referring to vintage/rare here, obvs) are being seized on by investors looking to put their money into things of intrinsic value that won't suddenly become worthless when the stock market tanks or a war breaks out somewhere.

 

It's been the case for a very long time with classical instruments such as violins. Every time a Strad is sold for telephone numbers, the buyer is always a corporation, hedge fund or similar. Said corporation/hedge fund then lends the instrument to a prominent player in return for publicity in concert programmes and so on.

 

Now investors are discovering that electric instruments can be worth money and appreciate, they are piling in. Try finding a '59 Les Paul burst that is owned by a regular player. There are relatively few. Yes, I know the Steve Lukathers of the world own one, but when they pack it in or pass away, it's very likely the instrument won't be bought by another player. It'll be bought purely as an investment.

[Burns-bass]

6 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

I'm not sure it will peak any time soon. Musical instruments, like art, classic cars and other desirable items that are in limited supply (I'm referring to vintage/rare here, obvs) are being seized on by investors looking to put their money into things of intrinsic value that won't suddenly become worthless when the stock market tanks or a war breaks out somewhere.

 

It's been the case for a very long time with classical instruments such as violins. Every time a Strad is sold for telephone numbers, the buyer is always a corporation, hedge fund or similar. Said corporation/hedge fund then lends the instrument to a prominent player in return for publicity in concert programmes and so on.

 

Now investors are discovering that electric instruments can be worth money and appreciate, they are piling in. Try finding a '59 Les Paul burst that is owned by a regular player. There are relatively few. Yes, I know the Steve Lukathers of the world own one, but when they pack it in or pass away, it's very likely the instrument won't be bought by another player. It'll be bought purely as an investment.

I would say vintage instruments are the very definition of an illiquid asset.

 

Vintage guitars are a very poor speculative investment. This often becomes clear when you try to sell one for anything approaching the price you paid for it.

 

If there’s a war or the stock market crashes or we have another meltdown (all quite plausible at the moment) the value of these instruments is going to go down massively as it did in 2007.

 

Guitars are great fun but for the most part, poor investments for normal people.

 

https://www.premierguitar.com/after-the-fall-the-state-of-the-vintage-guitar-market

[Musicman666]

19 hours ago, chriswareham said:

The other problem, and one that is true of websites like eBay as well as Reverb is when researching prices sellers usually look at the current listings. They rarely look at the sold listings to see what people are actually likely to pay. When I'm looking to sell something I check the sold listings, and then price at the high end of what the item has sold at but with the option for people to make offers. Then of course you get the chancers saying "it's only worth half what you've listed it for mate", (and it always invariably has that "mate" at the end of a sentence like they're doing me a favour). I just ignore the chancers and hope they see the item's actual sold price when it invariably sells at the list price or just below.

i sometimes pm current adds of similar basses that have sold recently just to try and bring a degree of sanity into the negotiation ... it rarely has the desired effect. 

Edited Wednesday at 14:16 by Musicman666