Practice vs Live sound

[onehappybunny]

With any amp that I've had... inc. Trace, Markbass, Mesa - not all at same time, but I've been spoilt ;-) ...it's always been a heck of a lot easier getting an awesome sound at practice volumes, than when belting out high volumes at gigs.

Not sure whether it's room dynamics or physics techie stuff that I may struggle to understand, but I'd appreciate any advice about how to get a good sound at higher volumes, esp. when not able to put the bass through the PA. Would a smidgeon of effects (compression, reverb etc.) help out or is it more a case of careful EQing?

fyi - the sort of sound I like is a round, beefy, bassy, precision with TI flats kind of sound (sorry for crap description - best I can manage)

Any advice?

Thanks

Stu

[Protium]

Trial and error with the EQ. Start flat and in turn see what each control adds/subtracts from the sound, then build from there what you want more/less of.

[mike257]

Your listening position will make an enormous difference to what you hear as well. When I'm standing close to my 610 (especially in practice) I hear loads of top and high mid, and only really feel the bass, but the further away I wander, the more I hear the bottom end develop. Have you got a long lead, a wireless, or a willing volunteer to play your bass for you so you can take a walk and hear it from the crowds perspective?

[onehappybunny]

Thanks folks. Actually can hear the bass pretty well at practice but goes a bit muddy at similar settings when louder. Guess just need to ease off the EQ. Even thinking about hiring rehearsal space to mess with settings at loud volume without the inconvenience of other musicians ;-) Never seem to get the time to before gigs. Good idea about wandering into the crowd though

[Fraktal]

[quote name='onehappybunny' post='506597' date='Jun 5 2009, 09:01 PM']Even thinking about hiring rehearsal space to mess with settings at loud volume without the inconvenience of other musicians[/quote]

Please excuse me, but I would think that is a very bad idea. The sound of an electric bass has lots of frequencies that overlap with the sound of almost every other instrument, fooling your perception, specially in the 200-700hz range. In my experience, its very easy to tweak a bass tone until it sounds great when you are playing alone, but as soon as the other instruments start rocking, your bass sound might lose a lot of definition.

So, a great bass tone during a live band setup might sound harsh, middy, nasal and crappy when playing alone, and a great bass sound while playing alone might get lost in the mix during a live band setup.

[Kaiu]

[quote name='Fraktal' post='506708' date='Jun 5 2009, 10:51 PM']Please excuse me, but I would think that is a very bad idea. The sound of an electric bass has lots of frequencies that overlap with the sound of almost every other instrument, fooling your perception, specially in the 200-700hz range. In my experience, its very easy to tweak a bass tone until it sounds great when you are playing alone, but as soon as the other instruments start rocking, your bass sound might lose a lot of definition.

So, a great bass tone during a live band setup might sound harsh, middy, nasal and crappy when playing alone, and a great bass sound while playing alone might get lost in the mix during a live band setup.[/quote]

I agree. I play in a 5 piece (drums, two guitarists with mesa stacks, keyboard player with synth, and three of them sing) and my tone sounds really harsh on it's own, but sits beautifully in the mix.

When i practice on my own I use a Fender Jazz. With the band I need a Musicman Sterling and a cranked Sansamp.

Ed

[onehappybunny]

Good point about frequency overlap. I may give it a try anyway (perhaps with recording to play along with) so at least I have a better starting point for tweaking when other instruments kick in - also there is less overlap in the 3 piece that I play in. My main problem is not having a decent reference for the settings at high volume and as we only gig (at most) once every couple of months, I don't get a regular chance to tweak from day-to-day or even week-to-week. At least I know now that paying attention to the EQ is the way to go. Ta muchly!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='onehappybunny' post='506597' date='Jun 5 2009, 08:01 PM']Thanks folks. Actually can hear the bass pretty well at practice but goes a bit muddy at similar settings when louder. Guess just need to ease off the EQ. Even thinking about hiring rehearsal space to mess with settings at loud volume without the inconvenience of other musicians ;-) Never seem to get the time to before gigs. Good idea about wandering into the crowd though[/quote]

The problem you're running into is a lack of low frequency power handling from your cabs, so as you turn up you hit a point where the distortion levels from the woofers rapidly increases, which makes the sound much more muddy and boomy. There are a few solutions:

1. Get the rest of the band to turn down.
2. Position your cab close to the walls to get beneficial boundary reinforcement (reflected lows combining in phase with direct output).
3. Turn down your bass EQ and accept having a less fat sound.
4. Get more speakers or speakers with more ability to move air (unfortunately the power handling rating on the cab does not tell you this).

Alex

[alexclaber]

Can you find out what woofer is in your 1580? Upgrading that would be relatively cheap and could make a huge difference.

Also I see you're using a Mesa 400+ so it may be that you're running out of clean power in the lows, which adding a second cab would solve but changing the woofer wouldn't.

Alex

[onehappybunny]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='506990' date='Jun 6 2009, 02:24 PM']Can you find out what woofer is in your 1580? Upgrading that would be relatively cheap and could make a huge difference.

Also I see you're using a Mesa 400+ so it may be that you're running out of clean power in the lows, which adding a second cab would solve but changing the woofer wouldn't.

Alex[/quote]

Thanks for the advice - I think it's likely that I just need to spend a a bit of time EQing it properly. If that doesn't work will look at the options you suggest.

[molan]

I know this might sound a bit obvious but are the rooms you're gigging in at all similar to the rehearsal space?

If the room is substantially different (and most gigging venues are going to be very different from a small closed rehearsal space) then you'll need to eq for the room rather than your regular practice venue.

The suggestion about a long lead or wireless is great to test just how you sound at different parts of a gig venue (especially if you're not in the PA).

I've certainly played in rooms that have had hideous low booming frequencies on stage but sound just fine out front & vice versa.

I'm now lucky in that I only really need to concentrate on eq setting for stage monitoring most of the time. Having a live sound man to mix you out front is such a bonus (so long as he has good ears!).

[onehappybunny]

Thanks folks for all for your sage advice - think I've sorted it, as follows:

[b]* Mesa 400+ tube mod[/b] - while an awesome amp, can be really tricky to EQ. Some folks on TB talk about taking 2 years to 'find their sound' but then they are completely smitten. Reading on here and TB came across a suggested mod where you replace the drive pre-amp tube (a 12AX7) with a lower gain tube. I went for a 12AT7 (a luvverly Mullard :wub: ) which lowered the gain, made it much easier to EQ (more responsive) and gave it an even lovelier (?) creamier tone, while still having OD at hand if you crank the volume
[b]* Taking time to EQ properly[/b] - I realise now that I had way, way too many options that I was messing with all at the same time (variable Mids and Highs on my Dr Bass speaker and then on the Mesa, Lows, Mids, Highs, pull out switches, plus onboard levels from bass etc.). After hours of messing about I left everything else alone and adjusted the EQ sliders on the Mesa to roughly a 'mild frown' shape and it worked a treat

Really, really happy with my tone now (even at foundation shaking, furniture rattling levels!) - ready for next gig... at my daughter's school fete it that rock 'n roll enough for ya?

Thanks again

Stu

[molan]

Good new s Stu - wait til you discover that you're playing outside with no cover & the weather is overcast with a high chance of rain, should be a fun gig. . .

[rodl2005]

:-) [b] It's FATE alright!!!
Glad U got yr live sound working. There can be a great deal of goodness in a simple EQ IMO. The standard Ampeg SVT type EQ- BAss, Mid & mid freq, Treble can be great & SIMPLE!!! Of course there is a place for semi parametric EQ's etc... I like the simple stuff meself. & even in "HARD to get good sound" rooms one can almost always dial in a good sound. I play one room where the bottom end just BLOOMS!!!! & it's very hard to get a good sound, but a darn good wind off af the bass usually works.... & sounds good out front.[/b]