Westone "The Rail" Bass - A down to earth question

[rwillett]

Hi

 

I'm looking at building something similar to the Westone "The Rail" bass. Not 100% certain yet, but exploring the idea. It won't look quite like this but I wanted to see what the smallest bass I could make.

 

 

I can see how it fits together and nothing strikes me as too difficult at the moment, famous last words, apart from where things actually earth on the above basses.

 

AFAIK there is normally (always?) an earthing strap/wire/connection from the bridge to the electrics to reduce hum. All the guitars I've built have that and all the ones I've taken apart have that.

 

I can't see how that works on the guitars above. I know the black side pieces are steel tubes so I would assume that they are involved but the pickup in the middle slides up and down, so there's no wires that connects the bridge to the pickup. Does the pickup section use a friction connection to make the earth OR has Westone found a way to get around the hum using something else?

 

Searching for Westone "The Rail" wiring diagram doesn't produce anything very interesting.

 

Anybody have any ideas how it works. The only thing I can think of is a piece of metal that clamps against one of the steel rods when you tighten the pickup in position with the screw. That might scratch the rods though.

 

Thanks

Rob

 

 

[JohnH89]

Off the top of my head , I would say don't worry about an earth connection at this stage and address the problem if it arises . I will give it some thought and get back to you . Is this another 3D printing exercise Rob ?

 

[rwillett]

Hi John

 

It is another 3d printing project. 

 

If I do it, I'll design an earth for the bridge to the rails. That's the easy bit. It's how a sliding middle earth's (if necessary) thats making me think. I have some simple ideas but am interested if Westone had this issue and how they resolved it. I'll keep thinking it through.

 

The next thing is how strong the bits need to be. The loading of a four string bass between bridge and neck is circa 4x that of a guitar. Previously I have used an aluminum slab as a backbone. That won't be an option here as the load will be taken by the side tubes. However these have to connect to the bridge and neck and that's a lot of stress. Probably the only way to check this is to do it and see 😊

 

Rob

[Maude]

What are the two body parts of the originals made of, wood? 

If so, and the rails are just pushed in like giant dowels(?), then the thickness of walls around the rails makes me think there's not a huge amount of strength there anyway. Presumably the rails sit deep enough into the body to somewhat counteract the leverage of the strings trying to lift the tail end. 

What strength has 3D printed material compared to wood? I realise there's a lot of variables here too. 

 

 

[rwillett]

@Maude

 

From reading various descriptions it's wood.

 

3D printing on it's own would not be strong enough. You can't make even a six string by just printing it. My six string and my headless both have an aluminium backbone. This works very well and the sustain is excellent.

 

However the two steel rails will add a lot of strength, and will be somewhat of an alternative to alumnium backbone but will move the forces elsewhere. I'm interested in seeing what the shear forces would be if it's just printed. I *think* that it's not going to be strong enough TBH, but I'm happy to experiment.

 

I also have a Plan B

 

Rob

[neepheid]

Unrelated to your efforts, but I would love to have a go on a Westone Rail, just for the experience.

[Maude]

36 minutes ago, rwillett said:

@Maude

 

From reading various descriptions it's wood.

 

3D printing on it's own would not be strong enough. You can't make even a six string by just printing it. My six string and my headless both have an aluminium backbone. This works very well and the sustain is excellent.

 

However the two steel rails will add a lot of strength, and will be somewhat of an alternative to alumnium backbone but will move the forces elsewhere. I'm interested in seeing what the shear forces would be if it's just printed. I *think* that it's not going to be strong enough TBH, but I'm happy to experiment.

 

I also have a Plan B

 

Rob

When you mentioned the aluminium backbone I thought similar could be done here, but by the time the neck, bridge and rails are anchored in an ally block there's not really much point in printing a 'skin' to cover them. 

 

I now thinking three ally billets machined to make the three main parts, polished and connected with stainless or titanium rails would look fantastic. 

[JoeEvans]

Couldn't the earth connection to the rails in the sliding pickup just be a bit of copper braid, squeezed against the rail by a piece of closed-cell foam, neoprene or similar, in a little recess in the pickup housing?

[LeftyJ]

33 minutes ago, JoeEvans said:

Couldn't the earth connection to the rails in the sliding pickup just be a bit of copper braid, squeezed against the rail by a piece of closed-cell foam, neoprene or similar, in a little recess in the pickup housing?

 

I was wondering that too. And there is the little thumbscrew that locks the sliding part to the upper rail. That could serve as a ground connection too if it's metal on metal. 

Edited Thursday at 11:50 by LeftyJ

[rwillett]

1 hour ago, Maude said:

When you mentioned the aluminium backbone I thought similar could be done here, but by the time the neck, bridge and rails are anchored in an ally block there's not really much point in printing a 'skin' to cover them. 

 

I now thinking three ally billets machined to make the three main parts, polished and connected with stainless or titanium rails would look fantastic. 

I don't have any machining capability, though I think you are right, polished titanium would be fabulous. I'll just see what my daughter would fetch on eBay to be able to buy the titanium blocks needed

 

The aluminium backbone works for 'traditional' guitars but wouldn't work for this as it needs to be empty in the middle. The issue at the moment is the shear loading on the parts of the neck and bridge where it connects to the metal tubes. There's circa 160+lbs coming from the bass strings and that will break a 15mm plywood backbone and bend 12mm aluminium. Already tried that, so there a lot of stress in certain areas of the guitar. I need to work out what the "art of the possible" is here.

 

I've a number of ideas to explore.

Rob

 

 

[rwillett]

1 hour ago, JoeEvans said:

Couldn't the earth connection to the rails in the sliding pickup just be a bit of copper braid, squeezed against the rail by a piece of closed-cell foam, neoprene or similar, in a little recess in the pickup housing?

Yes it could be, but in earlier pictures of the Westone it has different coloured rails. These might be anodised (and probably are), but a piece of copper braid rubbing against the tubes seems a poor way to do it in my book.  The tubes will have oil on them from your fingers and would very gently scratch the anodising or the lacquer or whatever.

 

I would have to do something like this if I built it, but it doesn't strike me as an elegant solution. However I might be wrong and this is the way Westone did it.

 

Rob

[Si600]

Pickup earth by spring loaded ball bearing?

[rwillett]

30 minutes ago, LeftyJ said:

 

I was wondering that too. And there is the little thumbscrew that locks the sliding part to the upper rail. That could serve as a ground connection too if it's metal on metal. 

That might be how it's done but that would probably also scratch the tubes and I've seen pictures of immaculate guitars. No scratches at all.

 

Its a puzzle and I can't work it out.

 

It might be that the bridge isn't earthed but I'm sure there would be hum.

 

Rob

[rwillett]

2 minutes ago, Si600 said:

Pickup earth by spring loaded ball bearing?

Hi Si

 

That would probably scratch the tubes, but not definitely.

 

Rob

[Paul S]

I believe @Happy Jack has or had one of these, maybe he can flesh it out a bit.

[Stub Mandrel]

I imagine one tube is earthed so the other must carry the hot signal!

 

Presumably most of the tube is powder coated so is there a contact strip of bare metal? Or is there a slot along the tube for a wire?

[Stub Mandrel]

My bad, I see the jack is on the moving part.

[rwillett]

@Stub Mandrel

 

Nothing I've seen shows a contact strip in any picture. 

 

If one tube is hot and the other earthed then surely that would create issues if you touched both parts? the current is virtually zero, but your body would interfere (I would think).

 

Rob

[rwillett]

2 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

My bad, I see the jack is on the moving part.

It's a puzzle

[Maude]

17 minutes ago, rwillett said:

It's a puzzle

I'm stumped. The way I see it is if there was anything between the sliding part and a tube to earth it then it would leave a mark eventually, whether it be a ball, braid, carbon brush etc. 

Maybe they just weren't earthed. 

Part of my brain keeps saying if the sliding part contains all the electrics and is isolated from the bridge, strings, tuners, etc then it shouldn't need earthing. But we know on a standard bass those two halfs of the 'circuit' are only connected by wood (an insulator) and needs earthing. 

Intriguing. 

Edited Thursday at 12:53 by Maude

[Happy Jack]

15 minutes ago, Paul S said:

I believe @Happy Jack has or had one of these, maybe he can flesh it out a bit.

 

On a black example like mine, the poles aren't black.

 

 

All the black bits you see are indeed wood, and there is no evidence anywhere of an earthing 'mechanism'.

 

Something that probably needs to be stressed is that these basses were not high-end, boutique instruments cooked up using only the finest ingredients. Far from it.

 

As built, they were novelty basses designed as something of a joke and absolutely built down to a price. All the electrics/electronics without exception were compete pants ... cheap, shoddy pickups connected to cheap, shoddy pots using cheap, shoddy wiring.

 

My bass is just glorious, precisely because I had a luthier strip out every electrical component and replace them with decent stuff. The core of the rebuild was this:

 

 

 

 

That's a Dark Star pickup which I was lucky enough to pick up cheap on eBay many years ago. Although the same width as the original (well, duh!) it's a fair bit 'deeper' so the slidy bit on which it's mounted had to be extended by nearly a centimetre. 

 

For the avoidance of doubt, the sliding mechanism works really well as a tone control, with the upgraded electrics my bass sounds excellent, and it attracts attention everywhere I play it.

 

[Jerry_B]

I dunno if it helps there's a basic wiring diagram here.

[Jerry_B]

10 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

As built, they were novelty basses designed as something of a joke and absolutely built down to a price. All the electrics/electronics without exception were compete pants ... cheap, shoddy pickups connected to cheap, shoddy pots using cheap, shoddy wiring.

 

Well, they weren't cheap at the time of their release, but not expensive either. Strange to hear that the electronics were not up to scratch. In all the Westones I own, they're pretty much bullet-proof and I've never had to change them. Ditto the pickups.

[Happy Jack]

Just now, Jerry_B said:

 

Well, they weren't cheap at the time of their release, but not expensive either. Strange to hear that the electronics were not up to scratch. In all the Westones I own, they're pretty much bullet-proof and I've never had to change them. Ditto the pickups.

 

The original pickup on mine seemed to be a no-name clone of a Schaller. It had really weak output and had become microphonic ... not a great combination.

 

[JohnH89]

Carbon brushes from a motor to earth the rails ?

 

I still think you will probably get away with not needing an earth .