Westone "The Rail" Bass - A down to earth question

[rwillett]

13 minutes ago, Jerry_B said:

I dunno if it helps there's a basic wiring diagram here.

Seen the diagram. Doesn't show if the bridge is earthed sadly.

 

Thanks

Rob

[prowla]

I would like a Rail - nearly picked one up at an event a few years back, but I hesitated and when I went back it was gone.

Re. Earthing: as noted, the jack is on the moving bit; I'd guess that the knurled locking screw at the top of the pickup assembly transfers the connection down the rail and to the bridge?

(I'd assume that both rails are grounded.)

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 13:18 by prowla

[rwillett]

24 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

 

On a black example like mine, the poles aren't black.

 

 

All the black bits you see are indeed wood, and there is no evidence anywhere of an earthing 'mechanism'.

 

Something that probably needs to be stressed is that these basses were not high-end, boutique instruments cooked up using only the finest ingredients. Far from it.

 

As built, they were novelty basses designed as something of a joke and absolutely built down to a price. All the electrics/electronics without exception were compete pants ... cheap, shoddy pickups connected to cheap, shoddy pots using cheap, shoddy wiring.

 

My bass is just glorious, precisely because I had a luthier strip out every electrical component and replace them with decent stuff. The core of the rebuild was this:

 

 

 

 

That's a Dark Star pickup which I was lucky enough to pick up cheap on eBay many years ago. Although the same width as the original (well, duh!) it's a fair bit 'deeper' so the slidy bit on which it's mounted had to be extended by nearly a centimetre. 

 

For the avoidance of doubt, the sliding mechanism works really well as a tone control, with the upgraded electrics my bass sounds excellent, and it attracts attention everywhere I play it.

 

Thanks for this. It does look like the bridge isn't earthed. One way to check would be see if there is electrical conductivity between the bridge and the ground on output socket.

 

My thoughts here are NOT to build a Westone clone and replicate crappy electrics, but something a little more interesting. I've got decent pickups and decent pots so the electrical side isn't an issue. Building the open nature of the bass is more of a challenge but I've some ideas on how it might work and look.

 

Thanks

Rob

[Bassassin]

I regret not picking up a Rail when they were deeply unfashionable & you'd be lucky to get £50 for one.

 

I feel the same about a lot of old basses & guitars that fetch quite silly money now. Guess I'd better make sure there's plenty of room in the time machine.

 

[Norris]

The pickup will be connected via a coaxial cable tucked away somewhere. The outer sleeve of the coax will be connected to earth in the control cavity. You could take earth from the other end of the cable for shielding the pickup carrier

 

Edit: Ah - I just noticed that the jack socket is in the movable pickup carrier. Oops

Edited Thursday at 19:29 by Norris

[Bassassin]

I would expect the earthing just involves a wire from the electronics to the locking screw on the slidey bit, and a second wire from the bridge to the upper tube. Black chrome plating on the black tubes, perhaps?

 

These were Matsumoku products (at the time Westone was Mats' house-brand), and not ultra-budget instruments. It would be odd if they'd used sub-standard electronics & components.

[crazycloud]

Make the rails chrome steel or stainless, and use copper solder wick as the earthing connector. It's flexible, cheap and easily replaceable.

 

[SpondonBassed]

13 hours ago, neepheid said:

Unrelated to your efforts, but I would love to have a go on a Westone Rail, just for the experience.

 

I would like to have one as a test bed for various pick-ups.  I have a box full and it strikes me as an easy way to get an idea of the sound before committing to one or other of a selection of them.

[crazycloud]

21 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

 

I would like to have one as a test bed for various pick-ups.  I have a box full and it strikes me as an easy way to get an idea of the sound before committing to one or other of a selection of them.

Get a cheap Fender clone and add a large bathtub rout between the neck pocket and bridge. It's much easier than making or modifying a Rail for that purpose.

[SpondonBassed]

11 hours ago, crazycloud said:

Get a cheap Fender clone and add a large bathtub rout between the neck pocket and bridge. It's much easier than making or modifying a Rail for that purpose.

 

Good idea.  It adds that extra pleasure you get from defacing a Fender lookalike.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by SpondonBassed

[crazycloud]

14 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

It adds that extra pleasure you get  from defacing a Fender lookalike.

Better still a real vintage Fender, just to hear the lamentations of their women.

Edited yesterday at 02:00 by crazycloud

[wintoid]

I had a Rail about 40 years ago.  It was my second bass, replacing an absolute boat anchor of an Ibanez and I played the hell out of it.

 

I remember I went to a studio to record a track with it and the engineers thought it must be active because the pickups were very hot.

[rwillett]

Still unclear as to how it's earthed though.

 

Given various regulations around the world I would have thought legislation would insist on it. 

[crazycloud]

9 minutes ago, rwillett said:

Still unclear as to how it's earthed though.

Steel rails are electrically connected to the socket ring with the rest of it the circuitry the same as any other passive or active bass. It's not difficult, you're just overthinking it.

[rwillett]

15 minutes ago, crazycloud said:

Steel rails are electrically connected to the socket ring with the rest of it the circuitry the same as any other passive or active bass. It's not difficult, you're just overthinking it.

 

The point is how are the steel rails connected to a sliding middle section. Something that rubs against the rail is a poor option as the rails will have grease from fingers. A friction type of option is not elegant and I don't think Westone would do that. My 83 westone guitar is very well made

 

I'm struggling to believe Westone just allowed something to rub against a rail and also some of the rails may be powder coated so that can't be the option there. 

 

I could be wrong but I would like to get to the bottom of this problem with a definitive answer. 

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[Stub Mandrel]

48 minutes ago, rwillett said:

Still unclear as to how it's earthed though.

 

Given various regulations around the world I would have thought legislation would insist on it. 

 

If that was the case, the strap pins, neck plate and truss rod would need to be grounded.

[prowla]

32 minutes ago, rwillett said:

 

The point is how are the steel rails connected to a sliding middle section. Something that rubs against the rail is a poor option as the rails will have grease from fingers. A friction type of option is not elegant and I don't think Westone would do that. My 83 westone guitar is very well made

 

I'm struggling to believe Westone just allowed something to rub against a rail and also some of the rails may be powder coated so that can't be the option there. 

 

I could be wrong but I would like to get to the bottom of this problem with a definitive answer. 

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

[Happy Jack]

I originally found this link on Flat Eric's blog, and a very fine read it is too.

 

https://westone.forumotion.com/t971-westone-us-design-development-history

[Stub Mandrel]

Please can someone test for continuity with a multimeter?

[BassApprentice]

Having read this - the answer surely lies with @rwillett speaking to the guy who did the work i n @Happy Jacks Rail? Considering he stripped it all out.

 

Looking forward to seeing what the grand plan is - always room for less conventional basses in the world. 

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, rwillett said:

Given various regulations around the world I would have thought legislation would insist on it. 

 

I would be absolutely shocked if there was any regulation that governed it. There is no safety issue (and an argument the other way), its just to get rid of noise, and I think that would be a hard one to regulate as then several genres would be illegal

 

[3below]

@Happy Jack could help resolve the earthed / not earthed question with a quick multimeter continuity check.  I suspect unearthed.  Another solution would be to use an active EMG pickup, fit the battery inside the sliding part, no need for an earth.

[Happy Jack]

22 minutes ago, 3below said:

@Happy Jack could help resolve the earthed / not earthed question with a quick multimeter continuity check.  I suspect unearthed.  Another solution would be to use an active EMG pickup, fit the battery inside the sliding part, no need for an earth.

 

If Jack (a) had a multimeter, and (b) had the slightest idea how to use one, then no doubt Jack could indeed do this thing.

 

I leave electrickery to those who don't realise that 'amp' is short for amplifier.

[rwillett]

2 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

I originally found this link on Flat Eric's blog, and a very fine read it is too.

 

https://westone.forumotion.com/t971-westone-us-design-development-history

I read that with great interest. A good insight into how things were done.

[rwillett]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I would be absolutely shocked if there was any regulation that governed it. There is no safety issue (and an argument the other way), its just to get rid of noise, and I think that would be a hard one to regulate as then several genres would be illegal

 

 

When I searched for this earlier, a lot of the responses say that the bridge should be grounded. A few say it makes no difference but a number of sites state it is essential to reduce hum and for safety.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+guitar+bridges+need+to+be+grounded+safety&num=10&client=firefox-b-d&uact=5&oq=do+guitar+bridges+need+to+be+grounded+safety

 

We are going slightly off topic here, but I'm interested in safety as its me. A statement such as "There is no safety issue (and an argument the other way)" could do with being expanded as I couldn't see anything that said grounding the bridge could be dangerous.

 

I am not an expert in electrical stuff, so I'm trying to follow best practise here. I recognise that t'internet is sometimes wrong so I'd be interested in finding out why.

 

Thanks

Rob