NSD - Behringer Model 15 (and Model D)

[BassTractor]

Just got it a few days ago, and already love it to bits.

From what I hear and read, it has the VCOs and VCF from Moog System clones (Behringer 900 series), and thus, this thing sounds just a smidgen less deep and phat than a Minimoog.
Can't compare with my Behringer Model D yet, as these things are in different countries.

Now, what I "miss" from the Minimoog as I remember it, is muchly compensated by the extensive patch panel (48 points) and the arpeggiator and 256-step sequencer (and probably other bits too).

The "Karn Evil 9" department:
Had a blast putting its synth outro into the sequencer and, without me even doing my best, the 2 VCOs plus sub-octave sounded very much like that iconic sequence.

 

 

Few knobs, but not simple. Fast dialling, like with a Minimoog, and then you get the patch panel too.
Melurve.

 

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

Nice ! 
Apparently , it’s based on  the Moog Grandmother . I have the Grandmother so don't need  to get this .

The one thing I do like about this is that it is more compact and desktop friendly , unlike the Grandmother .

Looks a blast ! Have fun ..

[BassTractor]

On 21/03/2025 at 20:25, RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE said:

Nice ! 
Apparently , it’s based on  the Moog Grandmother . I have the Grandmother so don't need  to get this .

The one thing I do like about this is that it is more compact and desktop friendly , unlike the Grandmother .

Looks a blast ! Have fun ..

Thanks, RatM !
The more I read, the more I think they're practically interchangeable, which makes me wonder whether that's even legal. Problematic. 
I also saw the old Realistic MG-1 being mentioned as their source synth, but feel that's stretching it. But yeah, it did have colours. 🙂

I trust you have a great synth in the GM.
Are you satisfied with it? I do know you've mentioned it, but forgot how you're getting along with it.

Yeah, the Model 15 is tiny and very handy. With that, it of course also comes with that Eurorack drawback of "two-knobs-per-finger". I'll probably get used to it. The tiny space also means label abbreviations, but again I trust one gets used to it.

 

 

Edited March 22 by BassTractor

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

On 21/03/2025 at 21:48, BassTractor said:

Thanks, RatM !
The more I read, the more I think they're practically interchangeable, which makes me wonder whether that's even legal. Problematic. 
I also saw the old Realistic MG-1 being mentioned as their source synth, but feel that's stretching it. But yeah, it did have colours. 🙂

I trust you have a great synth in the GM.
Are you satisfied with it? I do know you've mentioned it, but forgot how you're getting along with it.

Yeah, the Model 15 is tiny and very handy. With that, it of course also comes with that Eurorack drawback of "two-knobs-per-finger". I'll probably get used to it. The tiny space also means label abbreviations, but again I trust one gets used to it.

 

 

The Grandmother was my first synth . Great sounds. Terrible power supply ! The pitch wheel is a bit ‘ fragile’. The nuts around the inputs on the rear are plastic , not metal.

It took me a while to get to grips with patch cables, and making ‘proper’ and musical sounds 😬. It’s great for early Tangerine Dream , Klaus schulze stuff which I love .

Lots of droney watery sounds if you like that kind of thing .

 

About 6/7 months after buying it , Moog Sirin came  out , which is desktop and has presets . No modular .sounds very similar otherwise.. Plus you have to have a midi keyboard to use it . It’s discontinued now and expensive .initially I was a little disgruntled as a compact Moog is better for space in my small musicroom .However although the Grandmother has no presets , you can do more with it imho. 
 

There are quite a few official tips for the Grandmother from moog on you tube , and lots of unofficial ones. It may be worth checking those out, as id imagine you more or less have the same controls on your model 15.

 

The only other thing i’d say is if you can afford to do so , try and get either a DFAM or Behringher edge to go with it .

 

Hope this helps 

[BassTractor]

On 23/03/2025 at 10:24, RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE said:

The Grandmother was my first synth . Great sounds. Terrible power supply ! The pitch wheel is a bit ‘ fragile’. The nuts around the inputs on the rear are plastic , not metal.

It took me a while to get to grips with patch cables, and making ‘proper’ and musical sounds 😬. It’s great for early Tangerine Dream , Klaus schulze stuff which I love .

Lots of droney watery sounds if you like that kind of thing .

 

About 6/7 months after buying it , Moog Sirin came  out , which is desktop and has presets . No modular .sounds very similar otherwise.. Plus you have to have a midi keyboard to use it . It’s discontinued now and expensive .initially I was a little disgruntled as a compact Moog is better for space in my small musicroom .However although the Grandmother has no presets , you can do more with it imho. 
 

There are quite a few official tips for the Grandmother from moog on you tube , and lots of unofficial ones. It may be worth checking those out, as id imagine you more or less have the same controls on your model 15.

 

The only other thing i’d say is if you can afford to do so , try and get either a DFAM or Behringher edge to go with it .

 

Hope this helps 

Thanks for all of that, RatM !
Bugger about the build quality. IIRC, Moog was once known for build quality, but then again, I've not handled any since the early '80s or even followed developments in the market.
The Behringer OTOH is part of a series you may know well, which seems to share fairly good builds (reportedly except the Pro-800), but, as said in another thread, with surface-mount patch points rather than panel-mount ones. Reports on recent developments re Behringer synth build quality vary somewhat, some saying the last two years have been worse again. 😕

I think I'll need some time to get to grips with the patch panel too, as it's not always immediately clear exactly what is meant with the labelling. Don't imagine it's difficult once given some time, but do expect to need to remember quite some details. 
Same with the 2600, where one superficially might think one knows what to expect from a patch point, and then there's this tiny detail that makes it work differently.

Hadn't heard of the Sirin, but it's not on my radar - my "70s monophonic analogueness" cravings having been met with the synths I bought this year.

A DFaM or Edge might suddenly see my desktop. I've never used or owned a thing like those, and have no idea what to expect of them, so a visit to YT is probably in order. I'm not wary of repeating patterns, but they do need to develop over time, just like TD and others made them do.

Thanks again!
bert

 

 

Edited March 29 by BassTractor

[TheLowDown]

I've recently considered going modular, but I fear that I will spend more time tinkering with sound design than making music with it. Behringer make some fantastic value for money reproductions of the old faithfuls.

[BassTractor]

3 hours ago, TheLowDown said:

I've recently considered going modular, but I fear that I will spend more time tinkering with sound design than making music with it. Behringer make some fantastic value for money reproductions of the old faithfuls.

Yeah, one has to keep a clear mind, or else it's easy to get dragged in.

Have you considered semi-modular, like the 2600 and others as a compromise of sorts?

For me personally, after having spent virtually no time on tinkering for decades, these knobs and cables offer a welcome return to it, as I've loved tinkering since the early 70s.

As to going modular, I decided against it - not for tinkering reasons but for pecuniary ones. Just the price of Eurorack cabinets alone!

Yeah, some of Behringer's offerings seem stellar in that regard, and for example the Model D and the 2600 also offer more than the originals.

Edited March 27 by BassTractor

[TheLowDown]

2 hours ago, BassTractor said:

Yeah, one has to keep a clear mind, or else it's easy to get dragged in.

Have you considered semi-modular, like the 2600 and others as a compromise of sorts?

For me personally, after having spent virtually no time on tinkering for decades, these knobs and cables offer a welcome return to it, as I've loved tinkering since the early 70s.

As to going modular, I decided against it - not for tinkering reasons but for pecuniary ones. Just the price of Eurorack cabinets alone!

Yeah, some of Behringer's offerings seem stellar in that regard, and for example the Model D and the 2600 also offer more than the originals.

I think you'll enjoy it very much then 👍. Modular synths are very versatile, more than enough to tinker with. I don't know about the 2600 but I know the Model D is well regarded.

[BassTractor]

On 27/03/2025 at 22:29, TheLowDown said:

I think you'll enjoy it very much then 👍. Modular synths are very versatile, more than enough to tinker with. I don't know about the 2600 but I know the Model D is well regarded.

Thanks. I think I will.
The 2600 is well-regarded too. IMS every reviewer raves about it, and reportedly it has decent build quality.
Personally, I have the Model D for "that sound" and its superfast dialling, the Model 15 for some extra bits and the sequencing and arpeggiating, and two 2600s for all the tinkering that my brain can muster.
If money was no concern, I'd get more modern Eurorack modules, as it's unbelievable what some of those offer. Though: I fear the rabbit hole.

 

Edited March 29 by BassTractor

[BigRedX]

15 hours ago, BassTractor said:

Have you considered semi-modular, like the 2600 and others as a compromise of sorts?

 

IME semi-modular synths are always too much of a compromise.

 

I had a Korg MS20 in the 80s which promised much more than it actually delivered. Many of the routings that modular users take for granted like being able to use the audio signal as a modulation source were unavailable, and TBH the patch pay while looking impressive could have been quite effectively replaced with a few switches. Similarly with the 2600. I was helping someone out on another forum with a patch routing and it was very quickly apparent that in order to do what they wanted another VCA and EG were required. And this was for a fairly simple patch that most non-modular synths could achieve on their own.

 

Where The MS20 excelled was when you wanted to interface it with other equipment and when paired with the fully modular MS50, but IMO if you are going to do that you might as well build your own modular system from scratch, so you can concentrate on those modules that actually do what you want, and as long as you don't run out of Eurorack space, it's easy to add more VCAs/LFOs/EGs etc. as you find you need them. And if you don't find you need them you would have probably been able to make do with something non-modular.

[BassTractor]

On 28/03/2025 at 11:50, BigRedX said:

 

IME semi-modular synths are always too much of a compromise.

 

I had a Korg MS20 in the 80s which promised much more than it actually delivered. Many of the routings that modular users take for granted like being able to use the audio signal as a modulation source were unavailable, and TBH the patch pay while looking impressive could have been quite effectively replaced with a few switches. Similarly with the 2600. I was helping someone out on another forum with a patch routing and it was very quickly apparent that in order to do what they wanted another VCA and EG were required. And this was for a fairly simple patch that most non-modular synths could achieve on their own.

 

Where The MS20 excelled was when you wanted to interface it with other equipment and when paired with the fully modular MS50, but IMO if you are going to do that you might as well build your own modular system from scratch, so you can concentrate on those modules that actually do what you want, and as long as you don't run out of Eurorack space, it's easy to add more VCAs/LFOs/EGs etc. as you find you need them. And if you don't find you need them you would have probably been able to make do with something non-modular.

Yeah, many fair points, I think, and I agree about the MS-20 patch bay.
As said in the 2600 thread, we tend to often want a module we don't have. With for example my poor-man's solution, one does have the extra VCAs and EGs, and gets those at a cost within reach, e.g. 1200 quid in total for the mentioned four synths.
In Eurorack, I feel one hyperbolically needs a degree in modules to be able to find the cheap modules that do what one wants, and then still has to invest in the cabinets.
But yeah, really attractive with separate modules these days. Back in the days when we could buy a 2600 or MS-20, the alternatives like Buchla, Moog and Synton cost a leg and a rib. Off the top of my head I can't remember much else.
BTW, I worked with all three brands, and did find the patching quite tedious back then; things have certainly changed.

Then there's the bread-and-butter sounds: quickly dialled in on a semi-modular, whereas on a modular, one needs to either patch or keep patches. Keith Emerson famously had parts of his Moog set up as separate synths - IMS one of those resembled a Minimoog.

 

Edited March 29 by BassTractor

[BigRedX]

Most of the things that I have wanted to do with modular synths in the past can, these days, be replaced on any synth that allows MIDI CC assignment and tempo controlled synchronisation of the relevant  parameters. 

 

Also IIRC Emerson had a roadie to repatch his modular Moog while he was slicking knives in the Hammond Organ.

Edited March 30 by BigRedX

[pfretrock]

I got a Behringer D when they were released, but being a 'patch junky' added some extra Behringer modules. I posted this elsewhere:

 

http://www.hut-six.co.uk/Synth/trigger.html

 

On Emerson's Modular, I remember a few videos of early ELP where Keith went to the modular and did not get anything like the expected sound and spent a few seconds turning knobs. There is one on SkyArts, which is ridiculously colorized in placed.

[BassTractor]

Thanks, @pfretrock. Really helpful.
Without knowing too much about this stuff, I think we may be seeing similar design quirks in the Behringer 2600 inputs.
Half-related only, and I've yet to write down the factual details, an opamp might be in order also to send sequences to the 2600, as it reportedly demands high voltages - - though reportedly not as high ones as the ARP 2600.
 

[pfretrock]

My guess is the weak signal appearing on the jack is to trigger the internal envelopes and an external signal of normal spec can over ride it. Othewise a int/ext switch would be needed. Could use a switched socket - but a less reliable component.

 

Before I went down the Behringer route, I thought of building a full size copy of a Model D panel, with rotary encoder switches in place of pots (Incidentally "two-knobs-per-finger" is genius). The encoders would be read by a microcontroller and fed into a Arturia Model D software via Midi, the Arturia has a feature to assign Midi commands to controls (but not sure if all controls can be programmed this way). Microcontrollers being the bread and butter part of my life, I'm not a Musician.

[BigRedX]

Out of interest have Behringer taken the opportunity to standardise the analogue interface specifications of all their re-issues? If so which spec?

 

Or are we still left with two different standards of CV scaling and a variety of different trigger types and sensitivity levels?

 

I did have a look at a couple of downloadable manuals but they seems to have neglected to supply this information.

Edited Tuesday at 13:26 by BigRedX

[BassTractor]

On 08/04/2025 at 15:25, BigRedX said:

Out of interest have Behringer taken the opportunity to standardise the analogue interface specifications of all their re-issues? If so which spec?

 

Or are we still left with two different standards of CV scaling and a variety of different trigger types and sensitivity levels?

 

I did have a look at a couple of downloadable manuals but they seems to have neglected to supply this information.

Don't know yet (have not had the time), but have seen 1V/Oct, 5V triggers (the 2600 reportedly being the odd one out (10V IMS) even though it should normally work from 6V and up), and CV ranges from -2.5V to 2.5V (but I think I somewhere also saw -5V to 5V without me remembering the product that relates to).

One day I hope to find everything out for the units I have (or might buy later).
Right now stuff goes on in my life that keeps me from doing that.

I don't know to what degree stuff has been standardised lately, but Eurorack is reported as being non-standardised. I know zilch about Eurorack.

Edited Thursday at 06:09 by BassTractor

[BigRedX]

That's a pity. In the 80s getting all the CV and gate synthesisers and other devices to talk to each other was a nightmare.

 

We had stuff from Korg - Hz/Volt CV and S-Trig Gate and Roland - Oct/Volt CV and various different trigger voltages from +4 to +15 volts depending on the device and trigger output. Luckily we discovered that although the Korg was Hz/Volt for the keyboard interface the modulation inputs were Oct/Volt, and you could turn a +ve trigger into an S-Trig with a simple resistor and transistor circuit that fitted in the body of a 1/4" jack plug. We also had a home-made device that allowed us to synchronise clock and start/stop functions of the Roland MC202 and Yamaha RX11. We were more than grateful when MIDI came along and swept all this rubbish away.

 

I would have hoped that all the manufacturers could have standardised on one CV scaling and a minimum +ve trigger value for all new and re-issued kit, but obviously that's far too sensible. Is there any advantage of using Hz/Volt for CV and S-Trig over the other methods?

[BassTractor]

21 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Is there any advantage of using Hz/Volt for CV and S-Trig over the other methods?

 

No idea. I've never been knowledgeable in this, and also have forgotten more than I ever knew.
I've tried to have thoughts about this, and thought that maybe Hz/V is more easy to get right in the upper octaves. However, I do not know this, and it might be bollocks. At any rate, it seems limiting if all you have got to work with are limited voltage ranges - e.g. that V/Oct might give a broader frequency range without the use of expensive circuitry.

I do remember interconnecting my Kawai 100F with my MS-20, which gave that going down a half tone on one keyboard meant the other synth went up, but then with either a quarter tone or a whole tone - depending on which keyboard one played. 

 

Also, we had this interconnecting trick (do really not remember the specifics), whereby the MS-20 patch bay and the mod wheel together made interconnecting a "doddle" of sorts. You'd have to turn the mod wheel very carefully to a fixed position to get this right, and you lost normal use of the mod wheel. Ghastly, but still had a certain charm.

 

I vaguely remember having seen your circuit-in-jack-plug solution somewhere, but haven't used it myself.

Yeah, it seems a shame that standardisation hasn't occurred morely betterly.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 06:16 by BassTractor

[pfretrock]

I'd never heard of Hz/Volt, but had not been exposed to Korg or Yamaha stuff, being only with "home brew" stuff in my teens.

One useful property of silicon transistor physics is the exponentional relationship between base voltage and collector current. When calibrated, every volt increment  gives a doubling of collector current and hence an octave shift in oscillator pitch. So easy to implement but very temperature dependant which needed a solution. One of which was to build a heater inside the chip which held the temperature at some higher value probably 70 - 80C. The second generation MiniMoog oscillator circuit used 78.4C

[BigRedX]

13 hours ago, pfretrock said:

I'd never heard of Hz/Volt, but had not been exposed to Korg or Yamaha stuff, being only with "home brew" stuff in my teens.

One useful property of silicon transistor physics is the exponentional relationship between base voltage and collector current. When calibrated, every volt increment  gives a doubling of collector current and hence an octave shift in oscillator pitch. So easy to implement but very temperature dependant which needed a solution. One of which was to build a heater inside the chip which held the temperature at some higher value probably 70 - 80C. The second generation MiniMoog oscillator circuit used 78.4C

 

So, as long as you can compensate for temperature instability, Oct/Volt is a more sensible method to use?