Bloody Guitarists! Band moving to in ears. Help!

[MrPring]

Evening gang. 

 

Finally convinced the band to make the shift to in ears so we've got ourselves a mixer (Soundcraft u24i) and have all got P2s and some IEMS (as well as a full set of mics and cables). 

 

I'm now ampless and even the drummer is thinking of going to an electric kit but the 2 guitarists are not looking to ditch their amps just yet.

 

I've explained the benefits etc but their excuse is they'll not be able to get feedback at low volumes or if they go ampless. I'm a bit stumped on how to handle this. We've always been a ridiculously loud band but this was fine as we always played bigger venues so had powerful PAs and good monitoring. We've had a 5 year break and now on the comeback trail but now back to playing small venues hence the shift. 

 

Is it a case of just stepping on a drive pedal or two (whilst maintaining volume) to achieve this feedback? It's not a massive part of our show but at the start and end of some songs we do this for effect. 

 

Anyone come up against similar reluctance or anything else that might come up?

 

Any help greatly appreciated. 

 

Mods: 👌

Edited Thursday at 21:27 by MrPring

[KingPrawn]

Let them keep their amps and indulge them until the light bulb moment happens. Then, they will buy a Line 6 Helix Stomp or similar. They will find a whole new world opens up for them.

[Downunderwonder]

You can get feedback from a single 12 right up close to it. Make sure it is on a tall stand and pointed right at the guitar player and not at any mic but their cab mic.

 

You can probably get a feedback emulator but it's not going to be as much fun so you aren't winning that one very soon.

[jensenmann]

I completely get why the don´t want to go ampless. There´s a huge difference in how a guitar reacts with or without an amp. 

[Downunderwonder]

8 hours ago, jensenmann said:

I completely get why the don´t want to go ampless. There´s a huge difference in how a guitar reacts with or without an amp. 

Any yet plenty do. I wonder if they still use a monitor for feed back even with fancy electronics replacing the guitar amp. Maybe howling feedback is no longer a thing in that world.

[BigRedX]

All the bands I have seen in the last couple of years who use IEMs but whose guitarist(s) use amp-driven sustain and/or feedback as part of their sound have a SMALL amp somewhere on stage specifically for this purpose. It's placed so that it doesn't affect FoH but in a convenient location for its intended function. I've seen one placed with a 45° tilt-back at the front of the stage pointing directly at the guitarist. 

[fretmeister]

More small venues are likely to be upset at the "ridiculously loud" bit these days. The guitarists will be triggering the noise meter power cut off thingy before they know it.

 

If your mixer is doing individual mixes then just cut the drums out of their mix and tell them it's fine for everyone else... if they want to hear the drums they'll have to turn down.

 

Obviously if they are smarter than a sea cucumber they won't believe you but with 2 guitarists it has to be worth a try...  

[tauzero]

14 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

You can get feedback from a single 12 right up close to it. Make sure it is on a tall stand and pointed right at the guitar player and not at any mic but their cab mic.

 

You can probably get a feedback emulator but it's not going to be as much fun so you aren't winning that one very soon.

 

https://www.guitarinsideout.com/guitar-sustainers-guide/

[Dood]

14 hours ago, jensenmann said:

I completely get why the don´t want to go ampless. There´s a huge difference in how a guitarist reacts with or without an amp. 

 

Edited your post for humorous impact  though there's an element of truth in it.. 

[chris_b]

A few years back I played with a guitarist who could make his 112 combo and pedal board sound like a stack of Marshall’s, even at a very low volume.

 

You just need a guitarist with brains, will power and talent. . . . oh, wait!!

[Dood]

12 minutes ago, chris_b said:

A few years back I played with a guitarist who could make his 112 combo and pedal board sound like a stack of Marshall’s, even at a very low volume.

 

You just need a guitarist with brains, will power and talent. . . . oh, wait!!

 

There's a guy who keeps appearing on my feed who uses one of those little 30 Watt solidstate micro heads (The ones based on Soldano, Friedman, Bogner etc) and through a single 12", they absolutely roar. Straight in to the PA, you're laughing. 

 

Speaking of Friedman, a guitarist I sometimes play with has one of the lower powered 20W valve heads that has an 'emulated' output that goes straight to the PA and sounds brilliant. He also plays with a tiny 12" cabinet for backline. On stage volume isn't loud, but he's never had issues with not creating tone or feedback. It can do loud thats for sure. 

 

Edited Friday at 13:16 by Dood

[Russ]

Helix/Kemper/Headrush/whatever into a small 1x12" FRFR cab. The Headrush FRFR cabs are well liked, and Barefaced just brought out an active cab for precisely this sort of scenario. 

 

I'm not a silent stage fan. I like loud amps and there's nothing to replace that visceral feeling of a big amp shaking the stage and making your trousers flap. But I've been on the same bill as other bands who have gone this route, and they've made it work for them. 

 

There's one band we've played with on several occasions who do original metal, but they have a sideline as a cover band that basically pays for their original stuff. They're all about modellers, IEMs and electronic drums, but this enables them to basically play in peoples' houses at loud stereo volume and do birthday parties for rich peoples' kids in their own houses! 

[beely]

A bit of a coincidence this post.

Just last weekend our guitarist decided to dispense with his amp in favour of going direct into the PA from his Line6 Pod hd500.

On the first night, it took us a wee while to get in-ear and wedge monitors sorted out, but once that was done, I have to say it was preferable to him using an amp.

I would also say, to my ear, it didn't seem to affect his guitar sound or how he played.

I'd also say that it isn't so much about a silent stage; more a controlled-volume stage.

If the wedges and in-ears are right, then it still sounds like you are playing in a band.

Perhaps its not for everyone, but it seems to be working for us.

 

[Steve Browning]

17 hours ago, Dood said:

 

There's a guy who keeps appearing on my feed who uses one of those little 30 Watt solidstate micro heads (The ones based on Soldano, Friedman, Bogner etc) and through a single 12", they absolutely roar. Straight in to the PA, you're laughing. 

 

Speaking of Friedman, a guitarist I sometimes play with has one of the lower powered 20W valve heads that has an 'emulated' output that goes straight to the PA and sounds brilliant. He also plays with a tiny 12" cabinet for backline. On stage volume isn't loud, but he's never had issues with not creating tone or feedback. It can do loud thats for sure. 

 

Of course Brian May has been using a single 30 watt amp on the biggest stages for about 50 years now. 

[Downunderwonder]

20 hours ago, BigRedX said:

All the bands I have seen in the last couple of years who use IEMs but whose guitarist(s) use amp-driven sustain and/or feedback as part of their sound have a SMALL amp somewhere on stage specifically for this purpose. It's placed so that it doesn't affect FoH but in a convenient location for its intended function. I've seen one placed with a 45° tilt-back at the front of the stage pointing directly at the guitarist. 

If the guitarist also sings it would pay to put it well to the side so it's not in the back field of his microphone.

 

Tough choice, sing OR get howling feedback but not both at the same time.

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

Of course Brian May has been using a single 30 watt amp on the biggest stages for about 50 years now. 

 

Not just any 30w, but a Vox AC30..! Those beggars get to be incredibly loud..! 

[Steve Browning]

Very true. 

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

Of course Brian May has been using a single 30 watt amp on the biggest stages for about 50 years now. 

 

I thought he used 9, albeit in three switchable banks of three?

[Dad3353]

Like these..? 

 

[MrPring]

Cheers gang great responses. The main offender is also the lead vocalist so will need to educate him that his amp now doesn't need to be pointed at his ears set to 'stun' for him to hear himself. 

[Dood]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

I thought he used 9, albeit in three switchable banks of three?

Only the bottom three are live for a wet-dry-wet set up. The next three are fast swap outs in case of failure and the last three are, well, spares spares lol!

[SteveXFR]

I've seen some really heavy bands using IEM but with small, 30 watt guitar amps, they have no problem getting loads of feedback. 

Personally, I quite like having a big cab behind me at serious volume. I'd rather play with amps.

[TimR]

The appropriate volume for a venue.

 

A lot of guitarists seem to like the 'sweet spot' on the amp. I'm sure they used to put amps off stage in a mic'd soundproof box. Great on a big venue but it's not going to happen at the Dog and Duck. 

 

And guitarists seem to have magic ears that can hear gold cables. 

[Downunderwonder]

9 hours ago, Dood said:

Only the bottom three are live for a wet-dry-wet set up. The next three are fast swap outs in case of failure and the last three are, well, spares spares lol!

The Show Must Go On. 

 

I'll get my coat..

[Downunderwonder]

9 hours ago, MrPring said:

Cheers gang great responses. The main offender is also the lead vocalist so will need to educate him that his amp now doesn't need to be pointed at his ears set to 'stun' for him to hear himself. 

I can't tell if you mistyped or missed the point.

 

It needs to be pointed at them so they can hear all their glorious tone as the mic hears it.

 

Pointing a small cab right at the guitarist's head is the only way they can tolerate the racket.

 

They choose a smaller amp.

 

And yes it can be done down the Dog'nDuck. It was the guitarist himself who suggested it.