Paid gigs for amateur musicians......?

[Beedster]

Just thinking out loud here following a conversation with a bandmate.....

 

I love gigging, and I never expect to get paid for a gig. When I do get paid it's a bonus, and I've always seen it this way. I've taken no fee for a gig and allowed the rest of the band to split the remainder. It's just the way I've always done things. OK, gigging costs me money, but I do it because I choose to. If the music venue make money out of our performance, all the better.  

 

Alongside music I've done a lot of sport, I was professional for a while but have been amateur for most of my career. The race fee for my sport can be several hundred pounds per event, competing requires equipment that in total cost way more than my gigging rig and instruments, and most of the events also have a large crowd and are monetised aggressively , i.e., the organisers make a lot of money from the crowd. 

 

So they're my two hobbies, playing music and playing sport. They're equivalent in many respects. I'm just wondering why that for 99% of the people i know in both, the expectation in the former is that you should be paid, the expectation in the latter is that you should pay? 

 

Genuinely interested in your thoughts as I've always found the "If there's no fee I'm not doing the gig" approach of some of my fellow musicians a bit weird given that music is clearly - in their case - nothing more than a hobby, and to be honest, a hobby that some of them are pretty crap at anyway (some of them are really not very good musicians, are in pretty average bands, and often complain about the lack of gigs.....)?

 

I'm excluding pro bands/function bands of course 👍

 

 

[BigRedX]

Do people pay to watch you play sport?

 

Does anyone other than the suppliers and manufacturers of the equipment and clothing that you use, make money out of your sporting activities?

[Beedster]

12 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Do people pay to watch you play sport?

 

Does anyone other than the suppliers and manufacturers of the equipment and clothing that you use, make money out of your sporting activities?

Yes to both I said so in the post 👍

[ezbass]

Good question. I’ll just address the music side, as no one has ever wanted to see me indulge in sporting activities, let alone pay to do so. I think it depends on how you view it. Are you playing gigs to provide a service or just to have fun? If you can have fun, whilst providing a service doesn’t negate it being a service. I used to enjoy and have fun in my day jobs, but I definitely wanted paying. So I think it comes down to would you do it anyway if there was no renumeration involved? In my current band, the answer is no (charity gigs notwithstanding), as I’m not playing the music I would normally choose to, I don’t mind it, but it’s not my chosen genre. If my band was, for want of a better word, a vanity project, I might play for free, certainly expenses. The problem lies when those who are happy to play for free take work away from those who provide a service and want paying.

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, ezbass said:

The problem lies when those who are happy to play for free take work away from those who provide a service and want paying.

 

...which is an interesting point

[BigRedX]

4 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Yes to both I said so in the post 👍

 

You've been rather coy about what sport(s) you have taken part in, which may make a difference to my opinion, but broadly if people are paying to see you perform as a musician or sports person then I think I would want paying.

 

As a musician I've always been paid apart from those occasions where I have specifically agreed to provide my entertainment for free. The payment might not always have covered my costs directly, although when that happens the profit on the sales of merch normally make up the difference.

[Lozz196]

Yeah although music is my hobby unless it’s for something specific such as friends/charity it’s a pay the going rate or I’m not doing it, based upon that to others it’s their living so need to protect their livelihoods.

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, BigRedX said:

 

You've been rather coy about what sport(s) you have taken part in, which may make a difference to my opinion, but broadly if people are paying to see you perform as a musician or sports person then I think I would want paying.

 

As a musician I've always been paid apart from those occasions where I have specifically agreed to provide my entertainment for free. The payment might not always have covered my costs directly, although when that happens the profit on the sales of merch normally make up the difference.

 

And coy I will remain @BigRedX  

 

Until very recently most sports were amateur simply because the Olympics only allowed amateur participation, so many if not most athletes had to make a living outside sport (and in some sport still do), but spectators still paid to watch, and promoters made a lot of money 

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Yeah although music is my hobby unless it’s for something specific such as friends/charity it’s a pay the going rate or I’m not doing it, based upon that to others it’s their living so need to protect their livelihoods.

 

Which sounds equivalent to the argument I heard recently against open-mic and jam nights, that we shouldn't take part because they allow venues to make extra money without having to share those profits with the musicians and therefore they threaten the livelihood of musicians

[Wombat]

Millwall changed my mind a few years ago. We are asked to play before a match and it was made clear early on (after being asked) that it was for the 'exposure' as no fee or expenses were offered. We were told we had to be there three hours before kickoff and no parking would be offered, just find somewhere in the roads around the ground (on as match day). It made me realise that many other places I'd played similarly took the piss. I may be 'amateur' but I've honed my craft over years. Yes, my choice to play and I'm very happy to play any charity gigs but now only generally play for a fee.

Might be a cliché but how about they get 5 plumbers down there for 'the exposure'.

I'm not often trousering my fee but I choose what is done with it, rather than the venue/promoter etc.

And yes, as two members of the band were football nuts we did the Millwall gig. In December, with hats on. And it was great fun. Well, for me and one of the guitarists who used my barrow to move our stuff about the longest distance I ever had. But the others, who had blagged their way to a parking space, were locked in the ground till after the match 🤣.

[Lozz196]

11 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

Which sounds equivalent to the argument I heard recently against open-mic and jam nights, that we shouldn't take part because they allow venues to make extra money without having to share those profits with the musicians and therefore they threaten the livelihood of musicians

That’s a good point, hadn’t thought of that, which is probably because I’ve never been to one  so hadn’t considered it. Interesting.

[Sean]

When it comes to charity events I've always taken a hard line with venues expecting bands to play for free (in reality, at a loss).

I've asked the venue whether the bar staff are working unpaid shifts and if the venue is making a loss on the event. Then I explain that if the band takes that booking, which will be at a loss to each member, it also fills the calendar for a potential paid booking.  The unpaid gigs were always the ones that divided opinion in bands and sometimes led to bitchy squabbles.

 

Some of the bigger charity events I've played in the past like British Heart Foundation and CF Trust pay really well as they value having a quality act to give the paying punters professional level value for money.

[Wombat]

For me I was meaning the ‘under a gazebo at a fete’ sort of event. I agree that if it’s an organised musical thing with venues/promoter getting paid then the band should too. Even if they then donate said fee to the charity.

The open mic point is interesting. I play at one (for free) in order to help keep the Social Club going. But I think the person organising it gets paid but it’s fun to do…

The originals band I play in do the open mic circuit as a lot of pubs don’t like you playing ‘stuff people don’t know’. On the plus side we can now ‘sneek’ originals into sets at the pubs where OMs are held as our songs are known to a lot of the punters.

[Al Krow]

19 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

Which sounds equivalent to the argument I heard recently against open-mic and jam nights, that we shouldn't take part because they allow venues to make extra money without having to share those profits with the musicians and therefore they threaten the livelihood of musicians

 

Interesting discussion - I personally don't see too much of an equivalence between an open-mic / jam night and a covers band pub gig, though?

 

Open mic/ jam night: organiser has venue hire costs, typically provides all the PA equipment and lights, performers will be a pot luck standard and typically have around a 15 minute slot, give or take, and audiences will be chilled about the quality of the music ?

 

Pub covers gig - typically 2 hour performance time, band provides and sets up PA and lights and packs down at the end of the night and audiences expect a decent standard; if you don't come up to scratch you don't get invited back. Can involve a couple of hours of travel to and from the venue and another couple loading / unloading kit and setting up / packing down. Seems entirely fair to be paid for the time and effort involved in being able to deliver all that? Sure it can be a really fun night out, but any reason a pub should expect the musicians to provide all of that for free just because they enjoy the work?

 

I note you excluded function bands from playing for free, but many function bands will also be doing pub gigs and my experience is that pub venues are keen to book them precisely because they are a good enough standard to be doing functions.

[neepheid]

11 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

but any reason a pub should expect the musicians to provide all of that for free just because they enjoy the work?

 

You show me a band who enjoys loading in, setting up, breaking down and loading out, and I'll show you a bunch of liars

 

The reason I say this is that it's never factored in - all people see is the performance. I've been asked before when complaining about lack of pay, "don't you enjoy playing music?" and had to be held back by band members from having a right go at the condescending biatch.

Edited Sunday at 13:38 by neepheid

[warwickhunt]

I've often said that I'd happily rock up, bass in hand and play to 2,000 people for free... I might even offer to pay but if you want me to hump £4000+ worth of my equipment to a venue/pub miles from home that I have no association with, at a time that inconveniences me, to play to a bunch of ar5eholes who have no respect for the hours/years I've put into getting to the level that I'm at... I want paying!  

 

I may have paraphrased the above on occasion!    

[gjones]

45 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

Which sounds equivalent to the argument I heard recently against open-mic and jam nights, that we shouldn't take part because they allow venues to make extra money without having to share those profits with the musicians and therefore they threaten the livelihood of musicians

In my neck of the woods pro musicians host the jams and they get paid. 

If the people jamming with the pro musicians are good enough, at some point in the future they might get a gig out of it themselves.

[Beedster]

Lovely stuff folks, thank you, and please keep it coming, I'm genuinely interested in what a bunch of people whose views and experience I respect think about this 🙏

[gjones]

58 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Yeah although music is my hobby unless it’s for something specific such as friends/charity it’s a pay the going rate or I’m not doing it, based upon that to others it’s their living so need to protect their livelihoods.

 

This is my opinion on the matter as well.

 

In my experience, bands who play for nothing are doing it because they're so bad that there's no other way they'd ever get a gig (Apologies to members of all the bands who are the exception to the rule and play for eff all, even though they're absolutely amazing musicians 😷).

[SimonK]

I think it depends if someone is trying to take advantage.

 

I used to do loads of wedding gigs and would happily do it for free if it was someone I knew.  If it was someone I/the band didn't know that was bit different, albeit even in these cases it would almost always end up in a loss (certainly compared to what we made in our day jobs), but a loss we didn't mind too much as it was a hobby and at least the money made us feel wanted.

 

I don't do many (read none) at the moment paid gigs. Thus said if it was for a pub/bar that I knew was struggling to remain a venue for live music I probably would do it for free to support live music. However, an interesting nearby gig for me is at a professional cricket ground on match days. They have live bands throughout the day, and it seems pretty much the case that if you put a band together and audition it's not that hard to get the gig. BUT there is no way I would do this for "exposure" given they are selling £6 pints at the bar and tickets are £30+ to get in! Also they only want covers.

 

But all the above is based on me having a different day job. If music was an important part of my income I wouldn't do any of it for free.

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

pay the going rate or I’m not doing it, based upon that to others it’s their living so need to protect their livelihoods.

 

Now I struggle with that (which I hear an awful lot from fellow musos), because to me it reads "to help others take money out of a limited pot of money I take money out of that same limited pot of money..."?

 

I get it and applaud the sentiment, I'm just not convinced

[ahpook]

I've rarely been paid for gigging, doesn't bother me at all really. I enjoy it and that's enough for me.

[chris_b]

When I play I get paid for 3 reasons. . . .

 

This is not a hobby.

If someone is making money from my playing, so am I.

Most people I play with are making their living from music. So playing for free, for fun or a favour, is not an option.

 

[Beedster]

44 minutes ago, gjones said:

In my experience, bands who play for nothing are doing it because they're so bad that there's no other way they'd ever get a gig

 

Or because they love playing music?

[Dan Dare]

3 minutes ago, chris_b said:

When I play I get paid for 3 reasons. . . .

 

This is not a hobby.

If someone is making money from my playing, so am I.

Most people I play with are making their living from music. So playing for free, for fun or a favour, is not an option.

 

 

This is pretty much how it is for me. I have had brief periods of playing for a living, but most of the time, I've had a reasonable day job.

 

Now I'm comfortably retired, I don't need to earn from playing. On some occasions (a friend's wedding, birthday bash or similar), I will turn out for nothing and offer my sound system for the disco to save them hiring someone in, but I expect the other members of my band, who don't know the people, to be paid, obviously.

 

For the rest, it depends on circumstances. If I can play whatever I like in a nice place to people I like who treat me well/feed and water me, I will play for little money. If I am expected to play what people want, dress formally, put up with drunks hassling me, etc. the price goes up.

 

Like Chris, if someone is making money from an event, I expect a share of that. That applies to "charity" gigs, too, which we get asked to do sometimes. If it's something I believe in, I may do it for little or no fee, but I don't expect to make an actual loss and will insist on petrol/expenses at minimum. If they want my PA, however, I want paying (it cost me well into 5 figures and I don't schlepp it for nowt).