Paid gigs for amateur musicians......?

[TimR]

How long is a piece of string?

 

Pubs are closing at record rates. Putting on bands is a loss leader. If you think pubs are raking it in off the backs of your efforts then you're being misled. Unless you're pulling in 100s of punters. 

 

If someone is booking my services weeks or months in advance and the success of their event is dependent on me being there (or bringing in a dep or another band) then I'm charging and getting a deposit. Any DJ will be doing this. 

 

If I'm playing for an originals band, then I'm benevolent. I recognise new music needs support, I'll play for free, beer, or travel expenses. Unless I'm really into the music and it's fun, in which case might consider joining the band. 😆

 

 

Edited Sunday at 14:46 by TimR

[Burns-bass]

I did a two hour blues gig on Friday playing our messed up versions of Chess era stuff and got paid £45.

 

My view is, if I’m playing other people’s music (covers) I’d expect to be paid. Original, I’d expect nothing. (Jazz I’d expect no money and indifference).

 

On Saturday I did a 30km ultra in Bath. That cost me £89.

 

Nobody would pay to watch me fall over for 29km. But I’ve paid to watch competitive amateur sport (rugby, mostly).

 

The only money I’ve ever made from Sport is through organising events.

 

 

 

 

[BigRedX]

IME the only reason originals bands play for free is either because they have specifically decided to do so, or because they are too disorganised to ask for payment.

 

Similarly there is no reason why bands playing charity and benefit events shouldn't be paid. One of the better paying gigs I did last year was a benefit. We would have done it fro free because we whole-heartedly support the cause but the organisers insisted on paying us and the other performers for putting in the time and effort to do it.

[Al Krow]

11 minutes ago, TimR said:

If you think pubs are raking it in off the backs of your efforts then you're being misled. Unless you're pulling in 100s of punters. 

 

Not necessarily. A decent band, even without a following, can keep punters on site. A number of venues get their bands to start and finish later - ideally as close to closing time as possible, because they know the venue starts emptying pretty rapidly when the live music finishes.

A pub makes a very decent [typically around 70%] gross margin on wet sales, and they can easily figure out whether it's worth their while putting on live music, or whether they're better off with a DJ or no music other than the JukeBox or their own playlists.

 

Edited Sunday at 14:57 by Al Krow

[TimR]

9 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

On Saturday I did a 30km ultra in Bath. That cost me £89.

 

50km maybe? 🤔

[Burns-bass]

Just now, TimR said:

 

50km maybe? 🤔

No it was a charity thing. There were 50km runners but we did the 25km one (which was actually 29km because of the route).

 

It was a fantastic day out and the route was brilliant.

 

I’ve not ever done an ultra event so maybe I did a half or a mini or whatever. Our team of 4 raised over £2k so all good.

[TimR]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

A pub makes a very decent [typically around 70%] gross margin on wet sales,

 

For arguments sake £250, the pub has to sell £350 worth of beer just to pay the band. 70 odd pints.

 

The rent on my local is £4k a month. 

 

The sums don't add up. 

[TimR]

Just now, Burns-bass said:

No it was a charity thing. There were 50km runners but we did the 25km one (which was actually 29km because of the route).

 

It was a fantastic day out and the route was brilliant.

 

I’ve not ever done an ultra event so maybe I did a half or a mini or whatever. Our team of 4 raised over £2k so all good.

 

OK. That makes sense. £89 is a lot for a half marathon. 😉 But good to raise a ton of money for charity.

 

That would be the equivalent of paying to play at a festival that's raising money for charity, which I know happens, and I don't agree with that model at all. 

[Burns-bass]

This is the one:

 

https://www.ultrachallenge.com/bath-50-challenge/
 

(Sorry Chris)

[Al Krow]

Just now, TimR said:

 

For arguments sake £250, the pub has to sell £350 worth of beer just to pay the band. 70 odd pints.

 

The rent on my local is £4k a month. 

 

The sums don't add up. 

 

It depends on the venue? Eg if 100+ punters stay an hour longer and each buy 1 or 2 pints, which certainly can be the case in several of the venues I know, the sums do add up pretty quickly. Which is why they have live bands on 2 nights a week often followed by a DJ and many such venues are doing very well. They know what they need to be doing to be a destination pub.

 

Totally appreciate that's not going to be true for all venues.

 

[Tokalo]

I’m happy to play free for friends, but for “commercial” gigs would expect something, even if it’s only £25.

 

This is 100% down to the need to feed my GAS habit - all the cash goes into my Bass Savings account.

In my case, charging a fee is entirely the fault of BassChat. 😉

[Burns-bass]

6 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

OK. That makes sense. £89 is a lot for a half marathon. 😉 But good to raise a ton of money for charity.

 

That would be the equivalent of paying to play at a festival that's raising money for charity, which I know happens, and I don't agree with that model at all. 

Yeah, I agree.

 

We all registered (and paid) to do the event because we wanted to do it. None of the sponsorship money was used to pay for entry fees as that would be morally wrong.

 

 

[Franticsmurf]

I am fortunate enough not to have to rely on gig income but I do expect the band to be paid for their time and effort (mostly invisible as has been described above) if the venue is taking money for the event and/or gaining a benefit from running the event. The main band I'm in plays for charity - all the proceeds from gigs goes either to the upkeep of the band, the village hall in which we rehearse and store gear or to nominated charities. Band members get no direct payment (although we benefit from our own PA and stage kit such as mic stands, music stands cables and lighting). I'm more than happy to do this but I have and will continue to refuse to play gigs that do not offer the band a reasonable fee. Our gigs are usually private functions and we have a self organised festival every year but we will take bookings from clubs and larger pubs. Last year our contribution to the nominated charities was around 80% of what we took in fees. Two years ago our 'fee' for a 45 minute set at a local multi band line up was a token for a half pint of cider for each of the band. The venue was packed to the gills from about midday well into the night and when I later found out that we hadn't been given a contribution to our charity I explained that I wouldn't be playing it again. When I gave my reasons - the manager was paid, the staff were paid, the business didn't suffer as a result of the event so I think it only right that the rest of the people contributing to the event were offered payment - we decided not to do it again.

 

11 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

A decent band, even without a following, can keep punters on site

When I played in pub bands we were often asked to play at odd times for this reason. The weekend slot between afternoon and evening (4pm-7pm ish) when people were likely to disappear for food or, quite often, immediately after the big sporting event finished (around my neck of the woods, usually the rugby). We'd be setting up as the match was going on and expected to kick off (sorry) immediately after the final whistle.

 

[Dan Dare]

11 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

IME the only reason originals bands play for free is either because they have specifically decided to do so, or because they are too disorganised to ask for payment.

 

True in some cases, but there are more originals bands than there are decent venues to play, so supply and demand has an effect. A band with little to no following that wants to get its music in front of people has little choice a lot of the time. 

[Lozz196]

13 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

For arguments sake £250, the pub has to sell £350 worth of beer just to pay the band. 70 odd pints.

 

The rent on my local is £4k a month. 

 

The sums don't add up. 

 

7 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

It depends on the venue? Eg if 100+ punters stay an hour longer and each buy 1 or 2 pints, which certainly can be the case in several of the venues I know, the sums do add up pretty quickly. Which is why they have live bands on 2 nights a week often followed by a DJ and many such venues are doing very well. They know what they need to be doing to be a destination pub.

 

Totally appreciate that's not going to be true for all venues.

 

Def depends on the venue. In my old punk covers band we used to play a pub that had 120 capacity, apparently we were never their biggest earners, when we played they took £5k over the bar.

[Steve Browning]

It's an interesting question, and possibly one of those where the answer is what you are happy with.

 

In general, I would work on the principle that your level of pay is directl;y related to how seriously the payer takes you (taking into account market forces). Here in Pompey, the level of pay for pub gigs is pretty much what it was 40 years ago. There's something inherently wrong there.

 

In certain circumstances I am more than happy to pay for nothing, and do regularly. A commercial enterprise should not expect me to entertain their customers for nothing.

[Hellzero]

I've done both paid (as a semi pro) and free (as an amateur) gigs, but something that always bothered me is the lack of respect you get when you're playing for free...

 

Let me tell you this anecdote:

 

We were asked to play for free (or close to that as we were hat paid) for an organic market during the hottest day of the year...

 

As I'm tea total, I struggled to get something to drink, first mistake from the organisers.

 

Second mistake was that all the market, including our PA, was electrically wired to the same plug running in two sections across a road!?!

 

We had a Bose L1 PA system that we bought brand new with our own money (it was the first ever sold in Belgium back then and it was a fame changer for us) and that we were using flawlessly since a few gigs.

 

Suddenly, after 2 to 3 hours of playing, the PA started to smoke and stopped working: in one word, it had burned.

 

The first reaction from the punters was: Why are not playing anymore?

 

The second reaction from the organisers themselves was: Do you have an insurance, because we have none?!?

 

So we packed everything back in the cars, after emptying the almost empty hat, while my fellow guitarist/singer kept saying: The duet is over, we can't afford to buy a new PA.

 

On the next day, which was a Monday, I called the store were we bought it explaining what happened and they called Bose directly who agreed to repair or replace it for free and even offered us to come directly at the importer place, which wasn't that far for us 

 

We came there on the next day and the guy in charge confirmed that it would be repaired or replaced for free as it was under warranty at the end of the week, because we needed it every weekend!

 

On the Thursday afternoon I got a phone call saying that the PA was repaired and that we could come and take it back for free.

 

On the next day, Friday, we were there and the guy in charge of the repair section explained that all power amps of the L1 had simply fried due to a huge surge and that they had never seen such a thing happening in a normal use: So, I explained why it probably happened with the "main" lead coming from a house across the street with another lead that was connected to the first in the middle of the road where a car smashed it creating a huge short cut and power surge at the same time.

 

They laughed a bit and advised us to have our own heavy section lead extension and for our own usage only, which we did.

 

Since then, we are ALWAYS paid to play, because if the organiser makes profit, I can't see why we couldn't be paid: After all we are not jesters or minstrels living on leftovers.

 

Lesson learnt.

[TimR]

12 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

It depends on the venue? Eg if 100+ punters stay an hour longer and each buy 1 or 2 pints, which certainly can be the case in several of the venues I know, the sums do add up pretty quickly. Which is why they have live bands on 2 nights a week often followed by a DJ and many such venues are doing very well. They know what they need to be doing to be a destination pub.

 

Totally appreciate that's not going to be true for all venues.

 

 

Yes. My original post did say 'hundreds' of people. 

 

Last night I spent £18 on beer at £6 a pint. I appreciate others spend more, but there's a reason so many pubs are closing, and it's not because they're not putting on live music. 

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

In general, I would work on the principle that your level of pay is directly related to how seriously the payer takes you (taking into account market forces). 

A commercial enterprise should not expect me to entertain their customers for nothing.

 

Nicely put

[BigRedX]

8 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

True in some cases, but there are more originals bands than there are decent venues to play, so supply and demand has an effect. A band with little to no following that wants to get its music in front of people has little choice a lot of the time. 

 

That's assuming that all originals bands are equal as are the genres that they play. Maybe if you play undefined guitar-based pop/rock that is the case, but if you fit into an identifiable genre, especially one with an active scene there are plenty of gigs if you are halfway decent.

 

I'd like to think that my current band are unbelievably awesome, but the reality is that there are plenty in the genre (goth/post-punk) that write more memorable songs that we do and have a better image, but we still manage to get plenty of gigs. We have multiple gigs booked every month between now and September and are in the enviable position where we can turn down offers that aren't appropriate or worthwhile from either a financial PoV or for putting us in front of a receptive audience who may not have seen us before. 

 

On top of that we made over £100 from Spotify plays alone last year and will probably triple that this year, which is good going when the average stream is a fraction of the cent...

 

All of this happens because we work hard at promoting the band, and put on show when we do play. It's not difficult if you are organised and put in the required effort on top of your technical ability as a musician.

[Al Krow]

16 minutes ago, TimR said:

Last night I spent £18 on beer at £6 a pint. I appreciate others spend more, but there's a reason so many pubs are closing, and it's not because they're not putting on live music. 

 

Competition with supermarkets is a major factor also, right?

 

Don't understand the thinking that says that the supermarkets get a relative subsidy on beverage sales in the form of lower VAT/duties compared to pubs? If someone can please explain the reasoning on that one - seems pretty misguided to me?

[Steve Browning]

False on both counts. I can see a pub with a brewery attached getting charged Duty directly. Otherwise, it's factored into the price paid by the pub (or by us at the supermarket).

 

I can see the difference if you are talking about certain foodstuffs, but that's pretty niche. A pub doesn't sell any food, it provides a service of catering (as does a restaurant). That is why all such polaces charge VAT on meals etc. That's nothing to do with beverages though. I( recall the furore when VAT was put on takeaway food (as a service of catering).

[Lozz196]

27 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

That's assuming that all originals bands are equal as are the genres that they play. Maybe if you play undefined guitar-based pop/rock that is the case, but if you fit into an identifiable genre, especially one with an active scene there are plenty of gigs if you are halfway decent.

 

I'd like to think that my current band are unbelievably awesome, but the reality is that there are plenty in the genre (goth/post-punk) that write more memorable songs that we do and have a better image, but we still manage to get plenty of gigs. We have multiple gigs booked every month between now and September and are in the enviable position where we can turn down offers that aren't appropriate or worthwhile from either a financial PoV or for putting us in front of a receptive audience who may not have seen us before. 

 

On top of that we made over £100 from Spotify plays alone last year and will probably triple that this year, which is good going when the average stream is a fraction of the cent...

 

All of this happens because we work hard at promoting the band, and put on show when we do play. It's not difficult if you are organised and put in the required effort on top of your technical ability as a musician.

Agree, in my last band (punk/Oi originals) we gigged pretty much every weekend, all over the country and in Europe, and we probably turned down twice the amount of gigs that we actually did, a large majority of the gigs both played and turned down were what we were offered rather having had to go looking for them.
 

Playing on a defined scene helps big time, as does organisational skills, get defined duties for each band member aligned to their strengths and it’s possible to turn over some decent money especially if you’ve decent merchandise.

 

We never took anything from the band but doing it this way paid for hotels, flights, ferries, tourbus & driver hire. If we’d been of the mind to each take our £50 at the end of the night and drink it back over the same bar we’d never have done a tenth of what we did - and they’re still going strong (probably stronger) now.
 

 

[Al Krow]

36 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

False on both counts. I can see a pub with a brewery attached getting charged Duty directly. Otherwise, it's factored into the price paid by the pub (or by us at the supermarket).

 

I can see the difference if you are talking about certain foodstuffs, but that's pretty niche. A pub doesn't sell any food, it provides a service of catering (as does a restaurant). That is why all such polaces charge VAT on meals etc. That's nothing to do with beverages though. I( recall the furore when VAT was put on takeaway food (as a service of catering).

 

Thanks Steve, that makes sense.

 

I guess I was going on a Tim Weatherspoon's comment (Jan 2023) that: "the biggest threat to the hospitality industry is the vast disparity in tax treatment between pubs and restaurants and supermarkets. Supermarkets pay zero VAT on food sales, whereas pubs/restaurants pay 20%. This tax benefit allows supermarkets to subsidise the selling price of beer"

 

Is the above still correct in terms of VAT on food?

[Steve Browning]

Tim is wrong. The reason is in my answer. A pub provides a service of catering. That is why it is standard rated. It doesn't sell food.

 

A supermarket doesn't prepare it, cook it and serve it. It doesn't pay staff to do those jobs either.