Paid gigs for amateur musicians......?

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

I would like to be able to earn enough from writing, recording and performing music so that I could give up my day job and concentrate on it full time. The more time I have for music the better I think it will be.

 

Currently I'm posting this in between laying out pages for a very boring magazine that will take me most of this week and pay the bills for the next month. I would not be doing this if I didn't have to.

 

I doubt you're alone @BigRedX  

[Dan Dare]

16 hours ago, TimR said:

There were two death blows dealt to pubs.

 

One was open all day. You don't have to open all day, but people now expect it. So you have to pay staff for that middle of the day period where no one comes in. I realise a lot of pubs do shut, but when our local did that it just got a pile on social media and a load of bad feeling. All because one person wanted a pint at 3:30 in the afternoon.

 

The other was deregulation of off-licences. Which came shortly before the "open all hours". I distinctly remember off-licensces being the only place you could but drinks and they also had licenced opening hours. You certainly couldn't go to a supermarket and buy alcohol.

 

Anyway, that's a thread derail.

 

Fair points. I'd add another, which is the emergence of PubCos, which sprang up when breweries were required to sell their pubs.

 

PubCos lease the pubs and tie tenants into contracts that force them to pay huge rents and buy all their food and drink through the PubCo at grossly inflated prices. At the same time, tenants must pay for maintenance, repairs and improvements out of their own pockets.

 

One of the three pubs in my village is owned by a PubCo. In the three years I've lived here, it has had three tenants. Each year, the pub will go dark and signs will appear outside the building, saying "Business opportunity. Low cost of entry", etc and another gullible couple, with little to no knowledge of business, thinks "We've always dreamed of running a pub. It's a licence to print money".

 

So they sink their savings into it, re-decorate, fix the leaking roof, install a big screen telly with round the clock sports, yada, yada. A year later, the rent (which was pitched low to attract them in the first place) suddenly gores through the roof and they have to throw in the towel. They leave to lick their wounds and stack shelves in the local Lidl, getting back none of the money they sank into the place and the PubCo advertises for a new victim.

 

Not really a thread derail, because it's one of the reasons pubs have little budget to spend on music, etc.

Edited Monday at 09:26 by Dan Dare

[Burns-bass]

9 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

I doubt you're alone @BigRedX  

 

The problem is that what you love then becomes a job, and inevitably you view it differently.

 

Gareth Bale is a good example of a world class sportsperson who viewed football as a job (with golf his real passion, apparently).

 

I guess my point is that money taints your relationship with anything, be it music, sport or, in my case, writing.

 

I spend all day writing things (magazine articles, websites, reports, etc.) and I earn a very good living doing it. I'd always written a bit of fiction but the idea now of spending my spare time writing fills me with horror.

Edited Monday at 09:29 by Burns-bass

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, Burns-bass said:

 

The problem is that what you love then becomes a job, and inevitably you view it differently.

 

 

 

A major problem in pro sport, and why I stopped being a pro. Well, that and the crapness  

[TimR]

31 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

So they sink their savings into it, re-decorate, fix the leaking roof, install a big screen telly with round the clock sports, yada, yada. A year later, the rent (which was pitched low to attract them in the first place) suddenly gores through the roof and they have to throw in the towel. They leave to lick their wounds and stack shelves in the local Lidl, getting back none of the money they sank into the place and the PubCo advertises for a new victim.

 

Agree with everything you've written.

 

And, if they fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy, they'll borrow and/or throw in more savings. Especially if they're tied into a longer contract. 

 

Our local has seen 3 sets of wealthy people bankrupted.

 

Why no one has taken out a class action or got together on this, I don't know, it seems incredibly shadey business practices. I had a friend who took a pub contract to a business advisor before signing it, and was told on no uncertain terms not to agree to anything and to walk away.

 

Add in small village mentality where newcomers are distrusted and if your face doesn't fit they won't patronise your business, it's mental.

[Burns-bass]

42 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

A major problem in pro sport, and why I stopped being a pro. Well, that and the crapness  

 

Problem with endurance based sports is genetics is going to limit ability so don't be angry at yourself, but your parents, grandparents and forbears.

 

(I know researching this is what you do as a job, I'm just making a silly joke as it's Monday and I'm bored and should be working.)

 

[BigRedX]

34 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

The problem is that what you love then becomes a job, and inevitably you view it differently.

 

As someone who both writes and plays, the lucrative part is nearly always in the composition and not the playing.

 

I have a back-catalogue of 45 years worth of songs, and although most of the songs that aren't being performed by my current band only earn a few pounds a year, it all adds up, and it only takes a couple of songs to become popular either from my band or someone deciding to do a cover and I could be set for the rest of life. I'm certainly not going to be scrabbling around for paying gigs in covers bands just so I can pay the bills, because that would kill any enthusiasm for performing music that I have.

 

For me, income from writing a song is like buying a premium bond. I'm know that I'm very unlikely to win a big prize, but if I don't do it then my chances of "winning" are definitely zero. But each additional song is a very slight extra chance. And if by some miracle one of my songs does become successful, it doesn't affect my current musical activities. I can still continue to do what I want right now and not have to bow to the pressures of having another "hit".

[knirirr]

19 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

I

 

My view is, if I’m playing other people’s music (covers) I’d expect to be paid. Original, I’d expect nothing. (Jazz I’d expect no money and indifference).

 

 

 

There does appear to be a market for jazz around these parts; this company (run by a bassist) puts on a lot of decent gigs.

As for amateur jazz, we usually get paid for gigs. Not a huge amount, but a contribution towards the various expenses incurred is welcome. The difficulty is in finding those venues where the sort of jazz I want to play would be accepted; there don't appear to be many and they're often booked up.

 

As for sport then as I run the local class I'm the one collecting payments. For big events where I'm invited to teach then there's usually free entry at least (entry fees can be £100+) and perhaps some sort of expenses or board and lodging. Of course, if I simply attend without teaching then I have to pay up in full.

[Burns-bass]

1 minute ago, knirirr said:

 

There does appear to be a market for jazz around these parts; this company (run by a bassist) puts on a lot of decent gigs.

As for amateur jazz, we usually get paid for gigs. Not a huge amount, but a contribution towards the various expenses incurred is welcome. The difficulty is in finding those venues where the sort of jazz I want to play would be accepted; there don't appear to be many and they're often booked up.

 

As for sport then as I run the local class I'm the one collecting payments. For big events where I'm invited to teach then there's usually free entry at least (entry fees can be £100+) and perhaps some sort of expenses or board and lodging. Of course, if I simply attend without teaching then I have to pay up in full.

 

i'm sorry, it was a glib point and my tongue was firmly in my cheek.

 

I live in Bristol and there's an amazing jazz scene here with some absolutely superb players. In fact, it's impossible to keep up with it all.

[Dan Dare]

7 minutes ago, TimR said:

Agree with everything you've written.

 

And, if they fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy, they'll borrow and/or throw in more savings. Especially if they're tied into a longer contract. 

 

Our local has seen 3 sets of wealthy people bankrupted.

 

Why no one has taken out a class action or got together on this, I don't know, it seems incredibly shadey business practices. I had a friend who took a pub contract to a business advisor before signing it, and was told on no uncertain terms not to agree to anything and to walk away.

 

Add in small village mentality where newcomers are distrusted and if your face doesn't fit they won't patronise your business, it's mental.

 

It's tragic, isn't it? Even people who have enough nous to acquire some wealth don't seem immune to being fleeced.

 

I have no doubt that PubCos have ensured their contracts are legally watertight, even if they don't conform to any standards of decency.

 

To be fair to my village, there is little of the distrust towards new pub tenants to which you refer. The pub in question is the most popular. It's a nice enough place and people use it. It's better than the other two, one of which is the local four ale, where the lads go to play pool and have a scrap on Saturday night, whilst the other flies the flag of St George and is patronised by those who don't like foreigners - i.e. anyone from more than 10 miles away.

[Burns-bass]

10 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

As someone who both writes and plays, the lucrative part is nearly always in the composition and not the playing.

 

I have a back-catalogue of 45 years worth of songs, and although most of the songs that aren't being performed by my current band only earn a few pounds a year, it all adds up, and it only takes a couple of songs to become popular either from my band or someone deciding to do a cover and I could be set for the rest of life. I'm certainly not going to be scrabbling around for paying gigs in covers bands just so I can pay the bills, because that would kill any enthusiasm for performing music that I have.

 

For me, income from writing a song is like buying a premium bond. I'm know that I'm very unlikely to win a big prize, but if I don't do it then my chances of "winning" are definitely zero. But each additional song is a very slight extra chance. And if by some miracle one of my songs does become successful, it doesn't affect my current musical activities. I can still continue to do what I want right now and not have to bow to the pressures of having another "hit".

 

Yes, I get all that. It's why a songwriting credit is worth more than a performance one. 

 

The thing is, I don't really get much enjoyment from songwriting. On my own, at least. When I was playing in originals bands, I loved the collective songwriting process. But it's not something I really fancy doing myself. And that's OK. I'm happy working through the last 4 centuries of music. I'm currently playing baroque double bass pieces for nothing more than the enjoyment of doing so. 

 

Which leads me on to the next point.

 

There's often antipathy to people who play covers, as if it's somehow artistically less valuable than playing "originals".

 

It's an interesting one. Most of jazz is (or was, if you're looking at the classics) technically covers, because they're reusing melodies and chord structures that someone else has written. In my band, we play new versions of old songs. They bear little relevance to the original (and we have a lot of fun). In some cases, it's much more artistically rewarding than playing in indie bands (or any other musical idiom where people expect you to conform).

 

 

[TimR]

6 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

There's often antipathy to people who play covers, as if it's somehow artistically less valuable than playing "originals".

 

It's an interesting one. Most of jazz is (or was, if you're looking at the classics) technically covers, because they're reusing melodies and chord structures that someone else has written. In my band, we play new versions of old songs. They bear little relevance to the original (and we have a lot of fun). In some cases, it's much more artistically rewarding than playing in indie bands (or any other musical idiom where people expect you to conform).

 

Playing originals in a group is an essential part of learning your craft. It's evidenced by a load of originals bands who just don't understand either how arrangements work, nor what form is.

 

You can tell who has studied those aspects and who hasn't. 

 

 

[Cat Burrito]

I think the tragedy of the modern world is that the average member of the public wants music for free but won't bat an eyelid overpaying for a coffee. When it comes to charity shows and the overused word of "exposure", it is interesting that the band is the first thing to be eliminated from being paid. People are not showing up to watch the person on the door or the person serving them.

 

Throughout the 90s, I don't think I did any paid gigs. It was either a free gig or the minimal payment went into the band. Fast forward to now and my duo has done a few paid shows - all our money goes back into the band. We've also done freebies and open mic. I need to see us getting something, be it genuine exposure or just the opportunity to play a decent stage. 

 

I think for bands who write their own music, the standards shift. I wouldn't do a covers or tribute show for free because I would expect it to be of a standard where we got paid. Playing in my originals duo, it is more niche so I am alive to venues struggling. That said, I think many promoters could sometimes try harder. A couple of drinks and a meal isn't costing pub prices and things like collections for the band, covering fuel etc should all be used more widely. Musicians and their friends often spend the evening in the venue paying full price for drinks etc. I'm nearly 12 months alcohol free and the costs still build. 

 

Ultimately though, I would never criticise any band member for their choice to either purely play for fun or only demand paid shows. Your band, your rules. 

[Al Krow]

8 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

Yes, I get all that. It's why a songwriting credit is worth more than a performance one. 

 

The thing is, I don't really get much enjoyment from songwriting. On my own, at least. When I was playing in originals bands, I loved the collective songwriting process. But it's not something I really fancy doing myself. And that's OK. I'm happy working through the last 4 centuries of music. I'm currently playing baroque double bass pieces for nothing more than the enjoyment of doing so. 

 

Which leads me on to the next point.

 

There's often antipathy to people who play covers, as if it's somehow artistically less valuable than playing "originals".

 

It's an interesting one. Most of jazz is (or was, if you're looking at the classics) technically covers, because they're reusing melodies and chord structures that someone else has written. In my band, we play new versions of old songs. They bear little relevance to the original (and we have a lot of fun). In some cases, it's much more artistically rewarding than playing in indie bands (or any other musical idiom where people expect you to conform).

 

Pretty much ALL classical music is covers! No one disparages professional orchestras for their musical talent.

[Al Krow]

I've been thinking, though, that a number of our/my comments have been looking at this from a semi-pro musicians perspective where payment is the norm.

 

@Beedster was asking about this from a talented hobbyist / amateur perspective and not sure that our (certainly my) comments have properly reflected that?

 

So steering my comment back to the talented hobbyist: an amateur orchestra member playing covers of classical music (by Beethoven et al!) would not expect to be paid. They do it purely for the joy/passion of making music.

 

 

Edited Monday at 10:51 by Al Krow

[BigRedX]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Pretty much ALL classical music is covers! No one disparages professional orchestras for their musical talent.

 

But for a lot of classical music the composer would be part of the original permanence, and if not it would have been written specifically for a particular performer or ensemble. It's only since the death of the composer(s) in question that music essentially becomes a cover.

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

 

The problem is that what you love then becomes a job, and inevitably you view it differently.

 

Gareth Bale is a good example of a world class sportsperson who viewed football as a job (with golf his real passion, apparently).

 

I guess my point is that money taints your relationship with anything, be it music, sport or, in my case, writing.

 

I spend all day writing things (magazine articles, websites, reports, etc.) and I earn a very good living doing it. I'd always written a bit of fiction but the idea now of spending my spare time writing fills me with horror.

 

Oooh that's a really interesting perspective.

But I'm not sure it has to be that way and I wonder if it's as much related to the time and effort involved as it is to the money?

Fact is, for most musicians making a living from their music can be incredibly demanding - it definitely becomes work.

But if you're good enough to make enough money to live off of your passion, whilst not feeling that it is a chore i.e. you really enjoy your work, does it taint your relationship with it or just make you grateful that you're one of the lucky few who's passion is also their job?

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

 

Playing originals in a group is an essential part of learning your craft. It's evidenced by a load of originals bands who just don't understand either how arrangements work, nor what form is.

 

You can tell who has studied those aspects and who hasn't. 

 

I think you probably meant to say "Playing covers in a group is an essential part of learning your craft."

 

I'd been playing in originals bands for 10 years before I played a cover. The song in question taught me nothing about arrangements or form, in fact we altered the arrangement of the final verse to make it more interesting otherwise the song would have been an intro followed by 4 verses that only varied in the lyrics, each separated by 4 bars of identical instrumental.

 

IMO it is perfectly possible to learn about songwriting, arrangement and form simply by listening. You don't need to actually play anything, and certainly not in a band. Besides many successful songs are those that break the conventions of the time regarding those attributes.

 

 

[Dad3353]

18 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Oooh that's a really interesting perspective.

But I'm not sure it has to be that way and I wonder if it's as much related to the time and effort involved as it is to the money?

Fact is, for most musicians making a living from their music can be incredibly demanding - it definitely becomes work.

But if you're good enough to make enough money to live off of your passion, whilst not feeling that it is a chore i.e. you really enjoy your work, does it taint your relationship with it or just make you grateful that you're one of the lucky few who's passion is also their job?

 

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never worked for money, I've always chosen work that interests me. It has helped that I'm rather broad-minded in the field I choose, and learn very quickly. From avionics to IT, audio manufacture, professional gardening, lab instrument manufacture, jukebox and video game repair, musician (of course...), technician in a music shop, freelance programmer, short spell on a building site (between jobs...), pool-table manufacture, disco installation, back to IT, teaching, programming production systems for various French, Dutch and US companies as IT manager, then retirement. None of these posts were highly paid; all were rewarding. When playing music (drummer...) professionally, I got paid a pittance, but enjoyed the whole process, and have fistfuls of anecdotes and memories from those days that, to me, are priceless. Whilst working, I also played weddings and functions as a duo with a buddy for several years, and helped a local rock/punk/ska band get off the ground by doing their transport, sound, then their lights, for a few years more. Again, all unpaid, but a further store of unforgettable moments. Now retired, of course, I have a very modest income and a very modestly confortable lifestyle. I would not have had such enjoyment of my life had I gone looking for fame or fortune. No regrets, and I still play for free when asked. 

[Mickeyboro]

5 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

Just to clarify Mart, I'd always prefer to be paid, but for me the money is lower down the list than the enjoyment of playing music I choose to play with good people and to an appreciative audience.

 

 

That's a good point Lawrie

Not saying I am elite but the only gigs we have this year are ticketed. I prefer this to an indifferent audience- they are more invested in every way if they pay, even just a fiver. 

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

So steering my comment back to the talented hobbyist: an amateur orchestra member playing covers of classical music (by Beethoven et al!) would not expect to be paid. They do it purely for the joy/passion of making music

 

I agree, saw a brass band a part of a multi-arts show a while back. WOW, WOW, WOW, I was blown away by the sheer power, the musicality, the professionalism, and at times the humour of the performance. It was in front of a large paying audience at a theatre, but I understand that the members of the band do it for love. I also regularly see bands in pubs on Friday/Saturday night who are poorly rehearsed, often standing staring at a music stand through the set - including singers - and often with poor sound quality (usually simply too loud), and know they're getting paid often a few hundred quid. Go figure?  

 

7 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Now retired, of course, I have a very modest income and a very modestly confortable lifestyle. I would not have had such enjoyment of my life had I gone looking for fame or fortune. No regrets, and I still play for free when asked

 

Nice sentiment Douglas 🙏

[Beedster]

6 minutes ago, Mickeyboro said:

Not saying I am elite but the only gigs we have this year are ticketed. I prefer this to an indifferent audience- they are more invested in every way if they pay, even just a fiver. 

 

We're considering that very idea as present, venue actually suggested it for a series of gigs coming up, makes a lot of sense 👍

[Beedster]

47 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Oooh that's a really interesting perspective.

But I'm not sure it has to be that way and I wonder if it's as much related to the time and effort involved as it is to the money?

Fact is, for most musicians making a living from their music can be incredibly demanding - it definitely becomes work.

But if you're good enough to make enough money to live off of your passion, whilst not feeling that it is a chore i.e. you really enjoy your work, does it taint your relationship with it or just make you grateful that you're one of the lucky few who's passion is also their job?

 

My old Sport Psych mentor always used to tell this story to athletes who wanted to be pro...

 

There was an old man, who lived in a house. And alongside that house was a basketball court. The local kids would play there each day, and the noise distracted the old man from his reading.

He had asked them to be quieter but they laughed at him and made even more noise.

So one day, he took out a deckchair and a book, and sat courtside watching the game.

"What are you doing old man?" said one of the guys

"I'm watching you play" replied the old man

"If you want to do that, you have to pay us old man"

"OK, how much?"

"Five dollars a day"

"OK" said the old man, and handed the guy five dollars

 

Every day the old man arrived at the same time and watched the games, having given the same guy five dollars to do so. Then one day, the old man sat down, but didn't give the guy five dollars

 

"Where's our money old man" said the guy

"I don"t have any more money" said the old man

"Well if you don't have any more money, we aren't going to play for you" said they guy.

 

And they all left, leaving the old man in peace   

 

It's amazing how many pro athletes will tell you that was exactly their experience, no doubt true for some musicians as well

[Al Krow]

7 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

We're considering that very idea as present, venue actually suggested it for a series of gigs coming up, makes a lot of sense 👍

 

Think that would work well for a tribute and originals band. Not sure whether punters would want pay extra for a "standard" covers band, though, unless there wasn't too much competition locally? Potentially mean playing to smaller audiences than if the venue is picking up the tab?

[Mickeyboro]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Think that would work well for a tribute and originals band. Not sure whether punters would want pay extra for a "standard" covers band, though, unless there wasn't too much competition locally? Potentially mean playing to smaller audiences than if the venue is picking up the tab?

Beedster has done classic album-themed shows i reckon would sell tickets. We do blues. Sometimes we earn more money than a pub, sometimes less.