112 bass cab 4ohm?

[itu]

I see the same question everywhere.

 

The big problem is that all we are advertised are watts, and impedances. But not:

- sensitivity (dB / 1 W @ 1 m distance) 

- loudness (dB)

- f response (say ±9 dB)

 

Yes, I know, this way cabs would be comparable. I suppose marketing departments hate that.

[bremen]

Even when they do spec the fr, I don't believe it

https://www.musicstore.com/en_GB/GBP/Ampeg-SVT-810-E-Box-800W-4-Ohm-8x10-Speaker/art-BAS0000443-000

[Chienmortbb]

There is no real benefit in using a 4 ohm cabinet, and they are not that common. A good single 10 will more than suffice as long as it is sensitive enough,

[bremen]

On 06/04/2025 at 13:01, Freddi375 said:

I guess my main point and question is, if any amp is underpowering the cab, which i guess the elf running a 300w 8hm cab will be, then surely it will give more power and lows to a 300w 4ohm cab?

2dB more

[itu]

1 hour ago, bremen said:

2dB more

...or less, depending on the sensitivity etc.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, bremen said:

Even when they do spec the fr, I don't believe it

https://www.musicstore.com/en_GB/GBP/Ampeg-SVT-810-E-Box-800W-4-Ohm-8x10-Speaker/art-BAS0000443-000

Ampeg is one of the more honest companies, and the 58Hz f3 is accurate, as is the 40Hz f10. They're playing a bit fast and loose when they say 'The Infinite Baffle design of these sealed enclosures produces vast amounts of tightly focused bass.', but nobody's perfect. 😒

[bremen]

14 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Ampeg is one of the more honest companies, and the 58Hz f3 is accurate, as is the 40Hz f10. They're playing a bit fast and loose when they say 'The Infinite Baffle design of these sealed enclosures produces vast amounts of tightly focused bass.', but nobody's perfect. 😒

Really? Those drivers must be something special, it's hard to model anything that small (per driver) with that response in winisd. Not doubting you, I know you worked with Ampeg.

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, bremen said:

Even when they do spec the fr, I don't believe it

https://www.musicstore.com/en_GB/GBP/Ampeg-SVT-810-E-Box-800W-4-Ohm-8x10-Speaker/art-BAS0000443-000

 

Which reminds me... the sensitivity of an SVT 8x10 is 3dB less than a GRBass 2x12. It's real... I've tried them side by side.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

5 hours ago, bremen said:

Really? Those drivers must be something special, it's hard to model anything that small (per driver) with that response in winisd.

Not really. 58Hz f3 is nothing special, nor is 100dB/1w when you have eight of them.

[Phil Starr]

On 05/04/2025 at 11:20, Freddi375 said:

Hi guys,

 

I'm looking for a small 4ohm 112 cab to pair with a te elf.

 

I know there is much on offer, but based on personal experiences is there any recommendations?

 

Looking for something with good lows.

 

Thank you!

While it's all been good advice I don't think this has moved you forwards too much, though it may have refined your thinking.

 

What you are really asking for is a small'ish/portable single speaker that matches your Elf nicely and you have a bigger system when you need it. The Elf is voiced differently from your Streamliner so you want something with a bit more 'oomff' at the bottom end. Have I got that about right?

 

I've got a Warwick Gnome in my bass case I use mainly the same way, but also as a backup if my main amp goes down. I pair my Gnome with variously a 6" cab, an 8", 10" and an LFSys Monza, also a 10" cab. I've got 12" cabs also but I've never felt the need to use one with the Gnome. If I need that much volume I take a bigger system. I'm going to be a heretic and say 2db is worth having if you don't have to sacrifice anything else so 4ohms isn't a bad thing but Bill is right in warning you that you won't be able to mix or pair cabs with this. However you can buy cabs that are louder than others so you could buy something 8ohms and efficient so more than 2db louder than some 4 ohm cabs. Since there aren't many 4ohm cabs out there it makes more sense to me to look at any cab, have a listen and then decide on how it sounds and simply don't worry about the impedance. I'd suggest you stop worrying about using a 12 too all other things being equal you can get better bass out of the same size cab by using a smaller driver rather than squeezing a 12 into something portable. Look at 10's anbd 12's.

 

My experience with the 6" speaker it that it is way louder and more capable than I expected. I designed it for open mics to match up with amplified vocals and acoustic guitar and at most open mics it can be the loudest thing in the room. As a joke I took it to a rehearsal and set it up next to the drummer who was always too loud. Actually it was loud enough and I didn't bother swapping it out for a proper speaker. Small rehearsal room and I backed it into a corner to give as much extra help as I could, I also rolled off the bass a little and boosted the mids to give a little more volume and protect the speaker but I surprised myself. I've used it at dozens of open mics and it always causes a stir.

 

The 8 has an equally sensitive driver and what you get extra is all at the bottom end below 80Hz. It sounds great. You aren't going to use it at an open air gig or a room with 100 people in the audience and probably not with a full on rock band  but it'll do a decent job in a smaller venue or with something relatively laid back even if you have a drummer in the band.

 

My regular 10 has a horn as well and a really clean sound. I've regularly used it with a pop covers band, without PA support in most pubs will work and with PA support it is easily good enough for the whole band as a stage monitor. I'd use this mainly with my 300W amp but I've tried it with the Gnome and I've still had a little headroom.

 

All these speakers are home built and I've published the designs on BassChat but they obey the laws of physics, there's nothing special about them. Nobody commercially makes one anything like the 6" cab but there are plenty of cabs you can buy like the others. Only you can decide what limitations you are happy with based upon simple practicality. My experience says we often take far more kit than we need. In the 60's and 70's 100W was considered to be a decent amp and 200W a monster. Amps are so cheap relatively now that we all run much bigger stuff and the standard 300/500W amp is probably rarely actually needed to work flat out.

 

As a practical suggestion how about something designed to have an old school warm bass sound like the Barefaces One-10, Mark Bass also make some warm and loud sounding cabs but so do many manufacturers, go and try a few and see what you think.

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

In the 60's and 70's 100W was considered to be a decent amp and 200W a monster.

 

In the late 80s/90s I gigged with a 150W Laney Probass, a 2x12 guitar cab, a home made 2x12 with two Mackenzie 'full range' pa drivers and a home made 'bright box' with two big piezo tweeters in it. The bottom 2x12 was vertical with the upper one horizontal, then amp with tweeters on top. Skillfully designed to maximise comb filtering.

 

In other words, the stack of @Bill Fitzmaurice's nightmares...

 

 

[asingardenof]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

My experience says we often take far more kit than we need. In the 60's and 70's 100W was considered to be a decent amp and 200W a monster. Amps are so cheap relatively now that we all run much bigger stuff and the standard 300/500W amp is probably rarely actually needed to work flat out.

In the 60s and 70s the amps would have predominantly been tube amps rather than solid state though.

[Freddi375]

5 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

While it's all been good advice I don't think this has moved you forwards too much, though it may have refined your thinking.

 

What you are really asking for is a small'ish/portable single speaker that matches your Elf nicely and you have a bigger system when you need it. The Elf is voiced differently from your Streamliner so you want something with a bit more 'oomff' at the bottom end. Have I got that about right?

 

I've got a Warwick Gnome in my bass case I use mainly the same way, but also as a backup if my main amp goes down. I pair my Gnome with variously a 6" cab, an 8", 10" and an LFSys Monza, also a 10" cab. I've got 12" cabs also but I've never felt the need to use one with the Gnome. If I need that much volume I take a bigger system. I'm going to be a heretic and say 2db is worth having if you don't have to sacrifice anything else so 4ohms isn't a bad thing but Bill is right in warning you that you won't be able to mix or pair cabs with this. However you can buy cabs that are louder than others so you could buy something 8ohms and efficient so more than 2db louder than some 4 ohm cabs. Since there aren't many 4ohm cabs out there it makes more sense to me to look at any cab, have a listen and then decide on how it sounds and simply don't worry about the impedance. I'd suggest you stop worrying about using a 12 too all other things being equal you can get better bass out of the same size cab by using a smaller driver rather than squeezing a 12 into something portable. Look at 10's anbd 12's.

 

My experience with the 6" speaker it that it is way louder and more capable than I expected. I designed it for open mics to match up with amplified vocals and acoustic guitar and at most open mics it can be the loudest thing in the room. As a joke I took it to a rehearsal and set it up next to the drummer who was always too loud. Actually it was loud enough and I didn't bother swapping it out for a proper speaker. Small rehearsal room and I backed it into a corner to give as much extra help as I could, I also rolled off the bass a little and boosted the mids to give a little more volume and protect the speaker but I surprised myself. I've used it at dozens of open mics and it always causes a stir.

 

The 8 has an equally sensitive driver and what you get extra is all at the bottom end below 80Hz. It sounds great. You aren't going to use it at an open air gig or a room with 100 people in the audience and probably not with a full on rock band  but it'll do a decent job in a smaller venue or with something relatively laid back even if you have a drummer in the band.

 

My regular 10 has a horn as well and a really clean sound. I've regularly used it with a pop covers band, without PA support in most pubs will work and with PA support it is easily good enough for the whole band as a stage monitor. I'd use this mainly with my 300W amp but I've tried it with the Gnome and I've still had a little headroom.

 

All these speakers are home built and I've published the designs on BassChat but they obey the laws of physics, there's nothing special about them. Nobody commercially makes one anything like the 6" cab but there are plenty of cabs you can buy like the others. Only you can decide what limitations you are happy with based upon simple practicality. My experience says we often take far more kit than we need. In the 60's and 70's 100W was considered to be a decent amp and 200W a monster. Amps are so cheap relatively now that we all run much bigger stuff and the standard 300/500W amp is probably rarely actually needed to work flat out.

 

As a practical suggestion how about something designed to have an old school warm bass sound like the Barefaces One-10, Mark Bass also make some warm and loud sounding cabs but so do many manufacturers, go and try a few and see what you think.

Thank you sir! I appreciate your help and guidance 🙂

[Stub Mandrel]

20 hours ago, asingardenof said:

In the 60s and 70s the amps would have predominantly been tube amps rather than solid state though.

 

In the 90s plenty of people did pub/club gigs with something like a Carlsbro Cobra 90W combo.

 

The rule of thumb was 2x guitarist amp power. Nowadays it's 5-10x.

[cetera]

Hartke Hydrive 112 is the cab you want. It's switchable between 8 ohms and 4 ohms and sounds great!

[Chienmortbb]

19 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

In the 90s plenty of people did pub/club gigs with something like a Carlsbro Cobra 90W combo.

 

The rule of thumb was 2x guitarist amp power. Nowadays it's 5-10x.

I think there are a number of reasons for this, bass was almost seen but not heard in the past, but now even us oldies expect to hear more bass. Just try learning the bass part of a 60s song on an old car radio. To some degree, we have gone power mad. In the 90s, 300 watts was considered a monster. However, you only have to read how many people are using the micro amps, Elf, Gnome etc to gig with. These output about 100 watts into 8 ohms and will keep up with two 30 watt guitar combos and an acoustic drummer. The difference between 90 watts and 100 watts cannot be heard.

 

Of course, some might respond that valve watts were more powerful than solid state, nonsense. Valve amps compress nicely but can only output around 40% more power at maximum distortion, the same as a solid state amp of the same power.

 

So why are all my three amps 700–800 watts? Strangely, I use one of them as a spare that can be used either for bass or PA. The main reason is that they are there, and I can afford them. If we think back to the good old days when guitarists had 100 watt valve stacks, 300 watts were not enough (tell that to your ears) and 300 watts either Valve or Trace was the minimum you needed. However, playing with a couple of Fender Twins, AC30s etc in a pub/club, 300 watts are more than enough. As my cabinet is 8 ohms, 350 watts is comfortable with headroom (remember, solid state amps are usually quoted at 4 ohms. At 8 ohms, they will usually output 50-60% of the 4 ohm power).

[Phil Starr]

Anyone who has done any recording will know music looks like this

 

 

That's three notes or possibly three drum beats. Each note starts loud and then decays. Within each sound there is a complex waveform which is also going up and down.This is just a random image but it looks like the scale on the side is in decibels and the loudest part of the sound is the first peak just above -6db. If you imagine that 0db is the maximum power of your 300W amp then this trace is probably not unlike your bass playing. The loudest note is nowheere near using full power, -3db is half power and -6db is a quarter power and that only lasts a few thousandths of a second. Within a tenth of a second the note is down to less than 10W and the average power is below even that 10W level. Your amp isn't being pushed at all. Swap the amp for a 150W amp (-3db on the trace) and the peak is still nowhere near the amps peak handling or indeed the handling of a 130W into 8 ohms of the Elf/BAM/Gnome amps. In fact if you bring in a 70W amp only the first peak is going to be distorted. This is where a valve amp scores, the distortion will only be barely noticable compared to horrid solid state distortion so a 50W valve amp would probably sound as loud but with a little bit of crunch. This would only be in the peaks and the rest of the music would be the same. The watts aren't bigger but you can turn the valve amp up a bit more before it sounds bad so you can get the same average power and not worry so much about distorted peaks.

 

Incidentallyyou can use this information to get away with a smaller amp. The biggest peaks will all be in the subsonic bass so an HPF filters out the biggest peaks and you can turn up a couple of notches knowing your amp and speakers are safe. Alternatively you can add in a compressor which will reduce the difference between the loud and quiet bits of each note. You can then turn up the average volume with smaller peaks keeping within the amps limits but sounding louder. Maybe you don't need new speakers

 

Edited April 10 by Phil Starr

[Stub Mandrel]

42 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Incidentallyyou can use this information to get away with a smaller amp.

 

This is the 'secret' of the Trace Elliot Elf, as you push the gain compression comes in giving you extra headroom by squishing that initial peak.

[Phil Starr]

9 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

This is the 'secret' of the Trace Elliot Elf, as you push the gain compression comes in giving you extra headroom by squishing that initial peak.

I'm curious about this, do we know this for certain and do we have any idea of how they are achieving that? Is there some sort of DSP or other trickery going on or is this just some sort of limiting. We know from measurement that all the micro amps have particular and different voicings. I did prefer the voicing of the Elf whan we tested it at the Bass Bash and in the shootout but a genuine compression circuit would justify the extra cost of the Elf.

[SimonK]

Below from the ELF manual. So yes it is using a built-in compressor circuit to reduce the peaks and increase average volume, at least until you've turned the gain up to full where it appears it also has a built in overdrive/distortion. So it seems as well as being an amp and a DI box, it is also a compressor and a distortion pedal all in a tiny box!

 

[Stub Mandrel]

5 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm curious about this, do we know this for certain and do we have any idea of how they are achieving that? Is there some sort of DSP or other trickery going on or is this just some sort of limiting. We know from measurement that all the micro amps have particular and different voicings. I did prefer the voicing of the Elf whan we tested it at the Bass Bash and in the shootout but a genuine compression circuit would justify the extra cost of the Elf.

 

I think it's compression rather than limiting, it's relatively unobtrusive, not harsh at all.

Keep up the Trace Elliot tradition of 'they sound best when the gain light flashes' 🙂