Video: 'When Expensive Music Gear Becomes Obsolete'

[AinsleyWalker]

An interesting video on gear obsolescence and what we can all do to avoid falling into the trap of buying gear designed to become obsolete / unusable. 

 

One particular quote (paraphrased): 
"So what can we do to avoid despair of musical equipment becoming obsolete bricks? One is, buy pedals that don’t require a computer hookup." 

 

I've always felt this way, and only tolerated computer hookup with ONE pedal: my Future Impact v1 synth. This is purely because while I loved what it could do, it seemed to lack that many simple useable 'synth-bass' sounds straight out of the box and half of its capability is inaccessible without a computer and access to the patch database. I half worry that one day I will lose my 99 custom patches due to memory failure or lose the ability to hook it up to a computer, rendering it closer to a toy than musical gear.  Since buying it back in 2019, I've bought zero pedals that require computer hookup. 

 

 

Edited Monday at 17:01 by AinsleyWalker

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, AinsleyWalker said:

I've always felt this way, and only tolerated computer hookup with ONE pedal: my Future Impact v1 synth. This is purely because it seemed to lack many useable 'synth-bass' sounds out of the box and focused more on whacky/silly demo sounds (especially as V3.6 firmware replaced all the original 9 Deep Impact emulations, which were among the most usable sounds, could never work out why they did away with them on the stock unit...) half of its capability is inaccessible without a computer and access to the patch database.

 

Well, I know a lot of people get upset with manufacturers for not improving the firmware of a pedal that they have released. Which I think is a little odd. Yes, it is nice that Line6 update their stuff, and it is certainly a data point when buying equipment, but if you are not happy with a feature of a product you are thinking of getting, it is better to consider that it may never change, and decide if it is something you can live with, like the guy in the video, he didn't like the looper and was dissapointed that they didn't update it - could have maybe got something with a better looper on it?

 

I have many obsolete products over time, as I have always got random computer based stuff, and it is kind of par for the course.

Interesting that you mention the Future Impact - in a way that is way more future proof than most, as it idoesn't require some custom USB driver and a computer - it is a midi device, you could, should you choose, program that with an atari ST from 1985, and you will be able to program it 20 years from now on whatever is available there. Whereas something like the ToneX One I have basically has obsolescence factored in from startup.

For main effects I have either the choice of a BossME90B which although computer accessible is entirely programmable from the front panel, and a Mod Dwarf which is entirely unaccessable from the front panel, but when the company goes down has open sourced all of their code, so people can continue to modify it.

 

You can still buy the old boss (and fancy expensive boutique multi hundred pedals with one op amp in it) effects if you want, or you can get stuff that does a lot more and has a shorter life span.  Pays yer money and all

[fretmeister]

This is a bit weird to me.

 

"Obsolete" definition is being stretched a bit too far.

 

I have a Line 6 Pod XT. It stopped getting updates donkeys ago. It still sounds as good today as it did when I bought it.

This is not the same as a PC not being able to use a new version of anti-virus, or even a new program / app that has been designed for a newer operating system.

My pedal is still working the same as it always did. 

 

It is not obsolete in the slightest. It's just old. There is a real difference.

[snorkie635]

21 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

This is a bit weird to me.

 

"Obsolete" definition is being stretched a bit too far.

 

I have a Line 6 Pod XT. It stopped getting updates donkeys ago. It still sounds as good today as it did when I bought it.

This is not the same as a PC not being able to use a new version of anti-virus, or even a new program / app that has been designed for a newer operating system.

My pedal is still working the same as it always did. 

 

It is not obsolete in the slightest. It's just old. There is a real difference.

I'm sure big Arnie said that in one of the Terminator films?

[AinsleyWalker]

46 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

This is a bit weird to me.

 

"Obsolete" definition is being stretched a bit too far.

 

I have a Line 6 Pod XT. It stopped getting updates donkeys ago. It still sounds as good today as it did when I bought it.

This is not the same as a PC not being able to use a new version of anti-virus, or even a new program / app that has been designed for a newer operating system.

My pedal is still working the same as it always did. 

 

It is not obsolete in the slightest. It's just old. There is a real difference.

 

If you're still able to use it then I don't think it counts as obsolete. In the video, he gives an example of a Mackie interface that relied on a connection that became defunct, and Mackie stopped providing support for the product, so it became a brick. 

[Woodinblack]

30 minutes ago, AinsleyWalker said:

If you're still able to use it then I don't think it counts as obsolete. In the video, he gives an example of a Mackie interface that relied on a connection that became defunct, and Mackie stopped providing support for the product, so it became a brick. 

 

Well, no his use of it became obsolete. If he was still using the same interface it would still be working fine I assume.

[lemmywinks]

For hardware which needs an occasional connection to an obsolete OS or I/O to be configured then it might be an idea to keep an old laptop with firewire etc to one side. Not a huge inconvenience to keep using something you love. This is twice as fun if you're an old PC nerd as you can play Half Life on it as our lord intended. If it's just a modern OS thing then a VM might be a more convenient (but less fun) way of doing things.

 

ASIO4All drivers are also a potential lifesaver for old audio interfaces - a while back I sold an ancient M-Audio Quattro (genuinely forgot i had it and found it in a box) which isn't even on the legacy support section of their website and the last drivers were for Windows 98 IIRC. Worked fine (well as fine as USB 1.1 can be) in Audacity with ASIO4All which amazed me.

[tayste_2000]

I think it’s a very valid point and at the very least helps you separate gear into what is (potentially) an investment and what is and will always just be a tool.

 

I have a few things that I know won’t be fully functional in 10-20 years time (Boss Katana Go, Darkglass Element) I just take comfort in knowing that I’ll have sold them 5 times over by then.

 

But at this moment in time they solve an issue and provide a convenience.

 

As more and more pedals go digital and require apps to access deeper functions we’ll see this becoming more and more of an issue. 
 

For example the Digitech istomp, sure it’ll work with whatever the last effect you loaded on it but you’ll never load something else on.

 

What about TC toneprints if they ever discontinue the app?

 

How will you upload presets to the pedal when your phone is just a chip in your head?

 

And when you’re spending £1400 on a Quad Cortex it’s good to remember that in 5 years time it might be worth £600…… at best

Edited yesterday at 06:12 by tayste_2000

[BigRedX]

Basically ever since electronic devices stopped being made solely with discrete components and moved over to ICs everything has the potential to become obsolete, and even then you're not safe. These days there are a limited number of valve manufacturers and many of them are in countries we probably shouldn't be doing business with. There's also the problem of improved quality of modern components which may now be too good to be suitable replacements in vintage gear to relies on the fact that it was built with components from the 60s and 70s that have 10-15% tolerance and a modern <5% tolerance component will make it sound different. And of course when that component fails it is no longer possible to find out other than by trial and error what the actual value was.

 

As has been said already don't buy equipment that doesn't do what you want out of the box on the promise of some future update that may never materialise. I've done this once and won't do it again. A very expensive digital mixer that had several dedicated front panel controls that did nothing other than bring up a message saying that their function would be implemented at a future date. That didn't happen. However those functions that were there when I bought it carried on working for over 20 years and I can't complain about that.

 

I've been working with digital music equipment for over 45 years now and have plenty of time to get used to the fact that once one of these devices stops working it will either be impossible or too expensive and take too long to fix. I have now moved most of my high-tech gear into my computer and only buy from one manufacturer. I have no plug-in incompatibilities because apart from two I only use those that come with my DAW (Logic) and while they are convenient neither are essential.

[AinsleyWalker]

7 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Basically ever since electronic devices stopped being made solely with discrete components and moved over to ICs everything has the potential to become obsolete, and even then you're not safe. These days there are a limited number of valve manufacturers and many of them are in countries we probably shouldn't be doing business with. There's also the problem of improved quality of modern components which may now be too good to be suitable replacements in vintage gear to relies on the fact that it was built with components from the 60s and 70s that have 10-15% tolerance and a modern <5% tolerance component will make it sound different. And of course when that component fails it is no longer possible to find out other than by trial and error what the actual value was.

Oh I absolutely know what you mean about valves - I work for a major valve amp brand. It's definitely getting harder to source them. 

[fretmeister]

13 hours ago, tayste_2000 said:

I think it’s a very valid point and at the very least helps you separate gear into what is (potentially) an investment and what is and will always just be a tool.

 

I have a few things that I know won’t be fully functional in 10-20 years time (Boss Katana Go, Darkglass Element) I just take comfort in knowing that I’ll have sold them 5 times over by then.

 

But at this moment in time they solve an issue and provide a convenience.

 

As more and more pedals go digital and require apps to access deeper functions we’ll see this becoming more and more of an issue. 
 

For example the Digitech istomp, sure it’ll work with whatever the last effect you loaded on it but you’ll never load something else on.

 

What about TC toneprints if they ever discontinue the app?

 

How will you upload presets to the pedal when your phone is just a chip in your head?

 

And when you’re spending £1400 on a Quad Cortex it’s good to remember that in 5 years time it might be worth £600…… at best

 

 

The Quad Cortex came out 5 years ago in 2020. They are still selling used at over £1000.

 

Much better value retention than my smart phone!

[BabyBlueSound]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

The Quad Cortex came out 5 years ago in 2020. They are still selling used at over £1000.

 

Much better value retention than my smart phone!

 

I think the real point is, will it work in 2035+ ? Or for example, will some cannibalistic private equity buy up Neural DSP, "cut the trim" by stripping the company of most assets, then toss it to the dump? A very likely scenario in today's tech scene, and if you're a C-level director at one of these companies, you're usually likely to take the golden parachute and retire VS protecting your company and brand.

[fretmeister]

17 minutes ago, BabyBlueSound said:

 

I think the real point is, will it work in 2035+ ? Or for example, will some cannibalistic private equity buy up Neural DSP, "cut the trim" by stripping the company of most assets, then toss it to the dump? A very likely scenario in today's tech scene, and if you're a C-level director at one of these companies, you're usually likely to take the golden parachute and retire VS protecting your company and brand.

 

Korg already bought Darkglass so I think it would be them if that happened.

 

But let's say you are right... why wouldn't the physical unit still work? It wouldn't get any more updates but it will probably still work just as it does now. It's not dependant on other things like Windows updates to continue to work exactly as it does now.

 

My Macbook Air from 2013 still works too. It won't run the latest OS but it still runs the version of Excel I've got on it which is what I got it for in the first place. Battery life is still a lot better than a lot of current Windows laptops too.

 

I got my POD XT when it was introduced in 2002/3 and still works. That's 22 years. 

[BabyBlueSound]

Yep, it might work without any issues! Or maybe all old versions of compatible Windows OS will be deprecated by then by some AI-enforcing situation, like they're trying to do now with Win10 VS Win11. Just saying, it's hard to monetise something that works for years to come, and monetisation is king, so... 

 

But I am all talk, I just got my C4 Synth 😁

[lemmywinks]

10 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

 

My Macbook Air from 2013 still works too. It won't run the latest OS but it still runs the version of Excel I've got on it which is what I got it for in the first place. Battery life is still a lot better than a lot of current Windows laptops too.

 

 

 

 

You can install Linux on that old Macbook Air, still perfectly capable of running a modern OS (Mint Mate works out of the box) if you need it to. I have an old Sandy Bridge Elitebook from 2011 with dual SSDs, one with Windows 11 and the other with Kubuntu.

[prowla]

Don't worry - in a few years time they'll be attracting a premium as cherished vintage products.

[SumOne]

Analogue pedals do get outdated in some ways too though. Parts get worn out and can't always be replaced or technology just moves on (e.g. massive noisy pedals with odd power requirements).

Nothing lasts forever, I think if I got 10 years use out of a pedal (digital or analogue) it would feel like I got my money's worth.

[LukeFRC]

13 hours ago, BigRedX said:

There's also the problem of improved quality of modern components which may now be too good to be suitable replacements in vintage gear to relies on the fact that it was built with components from the 60s and 70s that have 10-15% tolerance and a modern <5% tolerance component will make it sound different. And of course when that component fails it is no longer possible to find out other than by trial and error what the actual value was.

A lot of the time I agree with you BigRed, or at least value your experience… but this makes no sense…

a 1kohm resistor from 1982 with a 10% tolerance will be somewhere between 900- 1100 ohms, and be a crap shoot where in that range. A modern 1kohm resistor with 1% tolerance will be between 990-1010ohms - and yes it might sound different with a new resistor, but less different than it could sound with a NOS old one, and certainly closer to what the designer intended.

So transistors and JFets and ICs stopping production, or some elements not fitting with environmental rules, or modern film vs old tantalum sounding different, or even everything being too hifi and nothing with a slow enough slew rate ild agree with you - but tighter tolerances in and of themselves should make no difference. 

[LukeFRC]

Also sometimes I think we overthink it.

i have an HX stomp, it won’t last forever, but neither will I. 
and I can sell it and buy something new if I want to.

 

i have an analogue pedal I’ve built myself. It might last a bit longer, who knows what the kids will do with it when I’m gone.