New Band. Guitarist bought a PA. Do I need a Sub?

[Tokalo]

I recently joined a newly-formed band (female vocals; 2 guitars; bass & drums), planning to play pubs and social clubs etc

First gig is mid-June.

We want to go through the desk so we can IEM.

 

The guitarist just bought a pair of Yamaha DXR15s.

 

If the speakers go on poles, will I (and drummer) need a sub on the floor?

 

If so, would I get away with a 15” powered sub, or does it need to be 18” because the tops are 15”?
 

(Else would it be an option to have one DXR speaker on a pole and the other on the floor, or is that just silly?!)

 

Thanks

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Do a search. This topic has been thoroughly discussed in multiple threads. It's unfortunate that your guitarist didn't do his homework before buying the DXR15s. You'd get a much better result with a pair of DXR10 and an 18 inch sub.

[Phil Starr]

I'm going to guess that with a female vocalist you won't be going for silly volumes or an over heavy bass sound. The DXR's are good speakers that will go really loud and are also well protected against abuse so you are unlikely to damage them in normal use. Honestly I don't think you will have a problem though that depends upon how big a venue you will normally be playing. Certinly until you are established I'd be prepared to go out with just the Yamahas and save your money until you are absolutely sure there is something lacking.

 

If you do find you are lacking at a larger venue then applying HPF to the mix will allow you a little extra headroom and probably a cleaner sound but in all probability Yamaha wil have some sort of dynamic speaker management in place already which will get the best out of the speakers and be almost unnoticed by you and the audience. Subs are a nice addition but not an absolute necessity in most UK pubs and clubs.

[Al Krow]

19 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm going to guess that with a female vocalist you won't be going for silly volumes or an over heavy bass sound. The DXR's are good speakers that will go really loud and are also well protected against abuse so you are unlikely to damage them in normal use. Honestly I don't think you will have a problem though that depends upon how big a venue you will normally be playing. Certinly until you are established I'd be prepared to go out with just the Yamahas and save your money until you are absolutely sure there is something lacking.

 

If you do find you are lacking at a larger venue then applying HPF to the mix will allow you a little extra headroom and probably a cleaner sound but in all probability Yamaha wil have some sort of dynamic speaker management in place already which will get the best out of the speakers and be almost unnoticed by you and the audience. Subs are a nice addition but not an absolute necessity in most UK pubs and clubs.

 

+1^^

 

Put our RCF 912As through their paces at a decently sized pub venue last night. Was very happy with the tone and "weight" of the bass in the mix, despite not having a sub.

A key for me getting more "weight" has been giving my bass a little (+3dB) EQ boost at around 125Hz - we can do that on our mixing desk, but any decent EQ pedal will also allow you to do this. 

 

Having said that, there was a 3 piece function band at the same venue the previous week with a LOT of kit, tops, subs and a Markbass combo as backline. Can't deny they sounded really good! 

 

Edited Saturday at 10:42 by Al Krow

[Phil Starr]

20 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

+1^^

 

Put our RCF 912As through their paces at a decently sized pub venue last night. Was very happy with the tone and "weight" of the bass in the mix, despite not having a sub.

A key for me getting more "weight" has been giving my bass a little (+3dB) EQ boost at around 125Hz - we can do that on our mixing desk, but any decent EQ pedal will also allow you to do this. 

 

Having said that, there was a 3 piece function band at the same venue the previous week with a LOT of kit, tops, subs and a Markbass combo as backline. Can't deny they sounded really good! 

 

+1^^^

 

I think this is important, there is more than one way of doing things. Your Yamahas and RCF912's are great speakers compared with any gear we used 20 years ago. Used by someone with years of experience, who has a good ear and cares about the sound they can sound wonderful. That's about the whole chain as well. Good mics, good technique when mic'ing up equipment, a great mix and good discipline from well rehearsed musicians are all just as important as decent speakers and I'd rather listen to a band that has a decent sound engineer and OK speakers than one which has all the kit and no idea. I do get a bit tired about all the internet advice which is so categorical, "you need 18" subs if you have 15" tops" type of thing. That takes no account of the size of the venue, the type of music played or the particular presentation of the song the band are attempting to create, or the skill of the musicians come to that.

 

The answer to most questions is spending a lot of money will improve your sound. Subs properly used will tighten up your bass sound of course, but would it be better to spend £800 on a new mixer than subs? £200 on a new vocal mic or £20 on a new set of bass strings? How can anyone answer that over the internet.

 

My advice is to keep it simple, you have nice speakers and your band will sound great if you can squeeze the best out of them. They'll happily deal with everything from 50-15,000Hz and probably more so don't worry about the 40-50Hz bit until it becomes obvious something is missing and you've tried all you cn to put it right with the kit you've got.  

 

Btw you haven't mentioned your mixer, what are you using? Going in-ears is probably the best thing you can do to improve your sound. A good mixer helps that a lot. I'm curious.

 

 

[Tokalo]

Thanks Phill

 

It seems that, while threads on here about basses and amps can give you a pretty good idea of what difference each can make, questions about speakers & cabs lead to Economist Syndrome (If you put 10 economists in a room, you’ll get 11 opinions…). Presumably this is because the setups and playing situations have too many variables. 

 

The singer is sourcing a mixer. She already has a Soundcraft Signature 16, but says she’s looking for something better. I think that means we’re ok for IEMs

[Phil Starr]

8 hours ago, Tokalo said:

Thanks Phill

 

It seems that, while threads on here about basses and amps can give you a pretty good idea of what difference each can make, questions about speakers & cabs lead to Economist Syndrome (If you put 10 economists in a room, you’ll get 11 opinions…). Presumably this is because the setups and playing situations have too many variables. 

 

The singer is sourcing a mixer. She already has a Soundcraft Signature 16, but says she’s looking for something better. I think that means we’re ok for IEMs

She seems to be doing her research but ask/suggest that her next step is to go for a digital mixer. My preferenmce is for a stagebox mixer like the behringer XR18 or the Allen and Heath CQ20 Unless you have a sound engineer it's easier to mix with an Ipad or other tablet so a stage-box works well. The Behringer has software that is a bit glitchy and moderately complex but is uber-flexible, the Allen and Heath is still flexible but has more intuitive software. Both are well loved by users and open up the possibility of multi-track recording at gigs or in the recording studio. Digital mixers will give you far more control over your sound with lots of studio quality sound shaping and fx, once you are used to them they are easier to control than the anologue equivalents, take up less space and best of all you can save and recall your best settings at will. Lots of discussion here

 

For you however the big plus would be that a digital mixer offers up to six separate monitor mixes for your in-ears so you won't have to share a mix and all of you will be able to adjust the mix individually.

 

PS if you want the simplest of mixers I noticed Thomann have a b-stock one of these RCF M18 which is what I use. RCF have discontinued them but they have the advantage that they are designed for semi-pro live bands. The control software is superb and really intuitive so there is next to no learning curve M18

[Jack]

21 hours ago, Tokalo said:

Thanks Phill

 

It seems that, while threads on here about basses and amps can give you a pretty good idea of what difference each can make, questions about speakers & cabs lead to Economist Syndrome (If you put 10 economists in a room, you’ll get 11 opinions…). Presumably this is because the setups and playing situations have too many variables. 

 

The singer is sourcing a mixer. She already has a Soundcraft Signature 16, but says she’s looking for something better. I think that means we’re ok for IEMs

You're right, the threads on basses are a paradigm of restraint, humility and advice without ego.