Struggling with sound engineering guitarist

[mrtcat]

Anyone else tear their hair out with the band member who does the band's live sound?

 

4 piece wedding band (guitar x2, bass, drums and occasional keys from singer guitarist).

 

Our guitarist does the mixing. He's a brilliant player but comes from a heavy metal background. We play standard wedding indie / pop rock at a huge variety of venues. He pumps the kick drum, buries the bass guitar (i swear he hates bass guitar and often jokes about it) absolutely drowns everything in his guitar and eq's the vocals so they don't get in the way. It absolutely kills me every time. I'm there for the money but it would be nice to feel like I'm part of the sound and I think we just sound like a blaring mess. I've offered to mix countless times but he complains endlessly and, as it's his mixer, he generally pulls rank and takes over.

 

If we get the usual venue complaints of "it's too loud and there's too much bass" it's usually a reference to the absolutely thumping kick drum but he laughs and just turns the bass guitar down even further.

 

Annoyingly, he's a lovely guy when he's not mixing. 

[BabyBlueSound]

Just the average egoguitarist approach to mixing. Nothing new under the sun 😁 OF COURSE everyone wants to hear his crunchy tones and nothing else, that's why they're there for on the wedding!

[Beedster]

11 minutes ago, BabyBlueSound said:

Just the average egoguitarist approach to mixing. Nothing new under the sun 😁 OF COURSE everyone wants to hear his crunchy tones and nothing else, that's why they're there for on the wedding!

 

Yep, three things come to mind....

 

1. If you joined a band in which guitarist does sound you could have seen this coming

2. If you let the guitarist start doing the sound once you were already in the band, you could have seen this coming

3. If the guitarist decided to do the sound on his own volition, you could have seen this coming........ 

 

Sorry. But there's a rule to be adhered to here. NEVER LET THE GUITARIST DO THE LEVELS  

[police squad]

there's only one solution here (IMO)

Walk

[Bigwan]

If he's not willing to compromise, walk away. Or buy your own mixer and have ultimate say!

[Steve Browning]

There is the option of sucking it up, but there lies the path to frustration. Realistically, is there any chance it'll change? Is the PA a joint enterprise, or owned by one individual?

 

What do the other band members think?

Edited 5 hours ago by Steve Browning

[HeadlessBassist]

Is there a way you can kill the guitarist without anyone knowing? 🤔

 

 

I went to see a friend I've been playing with for thirty years playing his solo act on Saturday, being as I wasn't out playing for a change. He was 'support' to a local 70's Disco band. The Disco band had several huge issues, which is a shame because they were reasonably able. The guitar was too quiet (odd, I know!), you couldn't hear the drums (drummer must try harder!), and the bass player clearly hadn't recognized that the venue has a very boomy, hollow stage. So all you could hear was bass boom - played badly, I might add. I don't know who there did the sound, but it was awful. More of a pity, as the female singer, keyboard player and sax player were all pretty good. Just a pity they were hard to hear.  

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

What do the other band members think?

 

That is ONLY factor here.....

 

The other factor being what do the audiences think...?

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, mrtcat said:

Anyone else tear their hair out with the band member who does the band's live sound?

 

Yes, but it is me!

 

1 hour ago, mrtcat said:

comes from a heavy metal background. We play standard wedding indie / pop rock at a huge variety of venues. He pumps the kick drum, buries the bass guitar (i swear he hates bass guitar and often jokes about it) 

 

Didn't formerly work for metallica did he?

 

Well, your option is to walk if you can't persuade him to change, telling him it doesn't seem like it is worth being there when you are turned down. Alternataively when he turns you down, stop playing and see if anyone notices.

[Beedster]

I've been playing in bands for over 40 years and I'm still amazed at how many people - myself included - find it hard to have a grown up conversation about the core currency of the band, the sound, and that when it does finally come up, it tends to do so contaminated by emotions such as anger, resentment, and bitterness.

 

If I was the OP I'd simply say, calmly and relatively unemotionally to the whole band, that despite the fact you clearly enjoy being in the band, the sound doesn't work for you, and that you'd like to discuss options. If you enjoy being in the band do not say anything like '....or I'll walk', because the guitarist might see that as an opportunity to retain his status. Also do not make it about the guitarist, make it about the sound, while one person might be at the desk, the whole band retain at least some if not most responsibility unless this is a fully pro-act. Don't do it when you and the band are tired at the end of a rehearsal, or stressed ahead of a gig, don't do it via WhatsApp, just choose your moments and have a calm and respectful in-person chat with them all 👍

[uk_lefty]

Agree with Beedster. The thing is if he wants to do a huge guitar w@nkathon he can do it at home and stick it on YouTube. That is not what you are paid to be performing at Weddings and the like for. We all have to compromise on our ideal to get paying gigs, so the sound should be balanced and clean so that it's enjoyable for the audience who have booked and paid for a function band.

 

As others have said, I have no idea why a lot of bands can't have this grown up conversation.

[Sean]

Years ago the band I was in (3 of the 4 of us) went to a live sound mixing workshop. I think it was about £20 each at the time. There were about 10-12 people there and we learned the basics of mixing live sound. Everyone had a good time, we learned loads and sounded better afterwards.

I've no idea if these sort of workshops exist but you could find one and make a day of it.

Edited 2 hours ago by Sean

[Beedster]

3 minutes ago, Sean said:

Years ago the band I was in (3 of the 4 of us) went to a live sound mixing workshop. I think it was about £20 each at the time. There were about 10-12 people there and we learned the basics of mixing live sound. Everyone had a good time, we learned loads and sounded better afterwards.

I've no idea if these sort of workshops exist but you could find one and make a day of it.

 

Sean, you do realise that was not a mixing workshop, it was group therapy, yes? 

 

And if you haven't seen it....

 

 

[SumOne]

Need one of these: 

 

We're always asking our lead guitarist to turn down (and drummer to slow down.....and I do like a drink!).

 

It just seems to come with the territory that lead guitarists generally want to be the loudest thing, they need reining in - so giving them control of the mix is probably best avoided. 

[mrtcat]

There's absolutely no issue with having a grown up conversation. We're all friends and we have done well over 700 gigs together and none of us are the sort to get fired up. I've had the conversation with the guitarist and the rest of the band a whole load of times and generally there's an agreement that the guitars and kick need to be tamed a little and the bass less buried but it lasts a gig or two before it goes back to the same old same old. The drummer never knows what it all sounds like because he never gets to listen from out front and we're all on iems so it always sounds fine in our own iem mixes. The singer (who also plays guitar) does hundreds of gigs a year with various set ups (solo, duo, deps etc) and literally is only worried about getting paid. 

 

I don't particularly want to walk. It's decent money and they're a good bunch to hang out with. I just feel frustrated that, no matter how often we discuss it, it always slowly creeps back to the same noisy guitar fest and that just makes me feel like I don't add anything to the sound. We get good feedback from clients and we do a fair few corporate events where pa and sound engineer is provided. It always sounds ace then.

 

A lot of the problem is that we're largely playing wedding venues and loads of them sound terrible anyway. There's just this reluctance from him to bring the levels down and have more balance. 

[Bigwan]

If you're all on IEMs... Why wouldn't he want you to sound the best you can? He can sound like whatever he wants through his monitors... Ego or idiot?

[Beedster]

28 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

There's absolutely no issue with having a grown up conversation

 

Sorry mate, if it's still going on after you've discussed it 'a whole load of time' then you've not had the grown up conversation. Given what's you've said, especially that it keeps happening but you don't want to walk, i think it's as Steve suggested above, tolerate it gracefully 👍

[Lozz196]

Problems are:

 

It’s very “modern” to have a huge cannon sounding kick drum. 
 

Guitarists (it seems most at least) just can’t handle singers getting all the attention, hating their “number 2” role.

 

Getting past both is going to be difficult.

[Beedster]

8 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Problems are:

 

It’s very “modern” to have a huge cannon sounding kick drum. 
 

Guitarists (it seems most at least) just can’t handle singers getting all the attention, hating their “number 2” role.

 

Getting past both is going to be difficult.

 

Agreed, which I think is why it's best to simply tolerate it. I think our guitarist is way too loud, but he's a great guy and a great player so I tolerate it. At gigs musicians tend to say 'He's too loud' while punters tend to say 'He's a great guitarist'. Everyone has a different perspective/expectation, as bass players we're often just as bad as most other band members.

 

Note the most.......    

[JapanAxe]

Who will the guy listen to? Not the rest of the band apparently, not the punters (what would they know about mixing?), so can you get an expert in to ‘work on your live sound’?

 

If it’s a matter of making the gigs bearable for you, then being able to set your own IEM mix could be a win.

Edited 1 hour ago by JapanAxe

[mrtcat]

19 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

Agreed, which I think is why it's best to simply tolerate it. I think our guitarist is way too loud, but he's a great guy and a great player so I tolerate it. At gigs musicians tend to say 'He's too loud' while punters tend to say 'He's a great guitarist'. Everyone has a different perspective/expectation, as bass players we're often just as bad as most other band members.

 

Note the most.......    

Sounds like you need to have a grown up conversation with your guitarist 🤣

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

Sounds like you need to have a grown up conversation with your guitarist 🤣

Not at all, as a band we're all happy. I think the point you're possibly overlooking is that nothing in this is about an identifiable and quantifiable 'best/ideal/optimal sound', it's about how expectations differ among people, and how those expectations affect perception and emotion. It sounds like the rest of your band might have agreed with you in principle, but don't share your expectations that it shouldn't happen, so they aren't worried when it does happen again. Re my bunch, we don't have any problem with our guitarist simply because we don't expect him to turn down, it's him (and there are plenty of singers, key's players, drummers, and bassists who are just the same who nonetheless get on with their bands without friction), and apart from a few of the type of musos who like to scratch their chins at a gig and then come straight up to you at the break and offer some well intentioned feedback, neither does anyone else. So there's no tearing out of hair needed. Is it ideal? No. Is it good enough? Yes.  

[lemmywinks]

40 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

Agreed, which I think is why it's best to simply tolerate it. I think our guitarist is way too loud, but he's a great guy and a great player so I tolerate it. At gigs musicians tend to say 'He's too loud' while punters tend to say 'He's a great guitarist'. Everyone has a different perspective/expectation, as bass players we're often just as bad as most other band members.

 

Note the most.......    

 

 

We used to have a guy do our sound at big gigs, had his own PA hire and sound engineering company. He was a drummer and every mix was drum heavy, not by any extreme measure but noticeable and it got on my nerves. Our guitarist at the time used to do a few jobs for him when he was unavailable and some of those bands would request him instead as they preferred his stage and FoH mix which was always really well balanced (to my ears anyway).

 

A bit like there always being one punter who will tell you something is too loud and another who will tell you the same thing is too quiet.

[NHM]

Any local bands whose sound you think is good? How about (having agreed as a band) to ask their sound engineer to come to couple of gigs and mix for you to set a new template that you can then take forward? It would be worth paying someone good to help you overcome this hurdle.