PAT Testing and Public Liability Insurance

[stingrayPete1977]

Im not sure really but with our current system its all we have and a lot of energy suppliers cutouts in our houses are already out dated and undersized but you try getting them to change every house in the UK over to something else.
I suppose you could argue that an oversize 13A is better than no protection at all though too? And like I said most of these other countries dont use 32A ring mains so its normally 16A at the wall socket which is already half the problem we have but in this country we like our gadgets so we would need lot of radial circuits with fewer outlets on them to use all the equipment in the kitchen alone.Some electricians have adopted this now but everytime you run a radial its more cost as the breaker with combined RCBO is around £25 over a fiver for an MCB 10 of those in a large house and you are £200 out of pocket for a start.

So its not that clear cut really is it? And some electricians are engineers too, Best of both worlds.We have had a few lads with a few letters after their names but with no desire to sit in an office after spending time and money getting them and came back on the tools,Horses for courses and all that.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Johnston' post='975388' date='Oct 2 2010, 08:29 PM']whats a fuse any way??

Are they them things we take out and replace with a bolt???[/quote]

A KIT-KAT Wrapper is about the right rating I think!

Edited October 2, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

I just skimmed an article on european countries and it seems France has what they called a grounding sytem but on the sample of houses 50% were incorrect or not grounded at all! So maybe we are not so stupid after all?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='975392' date='Oct 2 2010, 08:32 PM']I suppose you could argue that an oversize 13A is better than no protection at all though too? And like I said most of these other countries dont use 32A ring mains so its normally 16A at the wall socket which is already half the problem we have but in this country we like our gadgets so we would need lot of radial circuits with fewer outlets on them to use all the equipment in the kitchen alone.Some electricians have adopted this now but everytime you run a radial its more cost as the breaker with combined RCBO is around £25 over a fiver for an MCB 10 of those in a large house and you are £200 out of pocket for a start.

So its not that clear cut really is it?[/quote]
No, it's not, which sounds like the very thing you were complaining about when you said [i]"The other problem is even the rulebook guys cant decide on a lot of these problems"[/i]

Isn't the fact of the matter that there are many ways to design and implement an electrical distribution system? Each has their own pros and cons. Later implementations can incorporate knowledge gained from earlier implementations, together with taking advantage of new technology that didn't exist at the time of the original implementations. That's the world the design engineer inhabits and has to deal with, armed only with an understanding of the underlying science. They don't have a set of regulations to tell them what to do, they have to figure it out for themselves, then write the regulations for the technicians to follow. As you say, horses for courses.

Edited October 2, 2010 by flyfisher

[stingrayPete1977]

Hang on,Sorry I did not read your reply right,You meen no its not clear? But thats a comparison of 2 countries rather than one system in one country obviously their is no way around that. Also do we know how many european appliances have a fuse after the lead (blimey back to Tims amp here!) where uk approved kite mark stuff is relying on the plugtop fuse only? Its just the same but the fuse is at the other end and joe public can still put the wrong one when it blows.

What do we call european Joe public anyway? Josa Publica?

Edited October 2, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[flyfisher]

So the UK has the safest electrical regs in the world because of fused plugs? As I said, there are lots of ways of implementing such things. If fused plugs were the best idea since sliced bread, why have they not caught on around the world? I understand your attachment to the regs but how are you going to handle a change to new regs that don't require fuses in plugs at all, which would harmonise us with the rest of Europe and pretty much all non-former-British-Empire countries?

[TimR]

I think the answer is staring us in the face.

MCBs

[stingrayPete1977]

Thats back to cost again though Tim if you put one in every plugtop or built in to the appliance itself the costs would be massive compared to the millions of plugtops made in china.

Im not attached to the regs but as an electrician thats what we do,If it was made regulation to remove all fused plugtops and fit a new unfused version I would do it after all Im just the man on the ground so if thats what right thats what we do,Sure we would bitch about it like all the regs that change for the worse but as long as someone else has proven its correct then thats fair enough.A whole new system would be great for me as we would have work to see me out the rest of my days thats for sure.

[flyfisher]

I suspect TimR was referring to MCBs in the consumer unit rather than every plug or device - an example of where technology advances can be incorporated into updated regs and replace rather imprecise fusewire and minimise consumer error at the same time.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='975455' date='Oct 2 2010, 09:56 PM']I suspect TimR was referring to MCBs in the consumer unit rather than every plug or device - an example of where technology advances can be incorporated into updated regs and replace rather imprecise fusewire and minimise consumer error at the same time.[/quote]

Indeed. It would be interesting to see how many fires have happened in where an incorrect plug top fuse has been fitted where there has been an MCB at the consumer unit.

As I said very early on. It's about minimising risk (with the available funds. You can never eliminate all risk unless you have limited funds.) We already know that the regs allow for a "short" length of cable to be fitted after a large fuse to get down to a smaller rated fuse in distribution systems. depends on what you perceive the risk to be and whether an MCB will contain that risk.

My brother has MCBs and RCDs they're tripping all the time. I've told him why.....

Edited October 2, 2010 by TimR

[stingrayPete1977]

That cant be done though really can it because you would need one for each socket outlet because if you use more than one item you would soon overcook it.Thats the idea of a ring to tap off and fuse down where you need to.In fairness an RCBO already covers most situations as soon as 30mA goes astray it trips off but the problem there is if we relied totally on that for protection and it was not operating (which will happen at some point when it fails)you have little or no protection.A simple no moving parts fuse manufactured to a known standard (BS1362) will ultimatley last forever and continue to give some level of protection.

This one is down to you guys with the superior electrical/electronic knowledge (I have read some of your other topic posts flyfisher you know what you are talking about!) to figure out rather than the hands on people,Im happy just working by the rules.Which as they stand include fuses of the correct size and a cpc if required.And until anything changes I have no choice but to carry out PAT tests as it says in the book and to use my knowledge to inspect installations to the current regs as they stand so as the venues can keep on giving us gigs. (Oh yeah and me money! )

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' post='975465' date='Oct 2 2010, 10:05 PM']Indeed. It would be interesting to see how many fires have happened in where an incorrect plug top fuse has been fitted where there has been an MCB at the consumer unit.

As I said very early on. It's about minimising risk (with the available funds. You can never eliminate all risk unless you have limited funds.) We already know that the regs allow for a "short" length of cable to be fitted after a large fuse to get down to a smaller rated fuse in distribution systems. depends on what you perceive the risk to be and whether an MCB will contain that risk.

My brother has MCBs and RCDs they're tripping all the time. I've told him why.....[/quote]

This is why I almost always go for RCBO's over what they call the 17th edition board because you get your MCB and RCD combined so at least if it trips you have already narrowed it down to the circuit at fault rather than half the board being off although it does cost a bit more on installation one call out and that time saving feature has paid for itself IME. Also you get 30mA of fault current per circuit which a lot of items have (Fridges,freezers etc a couple of mA each)which is a big cause of nuisance tripping because of the accumulated loss of mA around the house (or as certain things kick in).

The MCB will only protect the cables though (this is where it got confusing 3 pages ago) because if its on the ring main at 32A the faulty appliance will cook its lead way before that MCB trips because if 30 amps are continually pulled up the faulty electric fires lead there is no reason for it to trip.

Edited October 2, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[ead]

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We are based in Chorley (Lancs) and I can highly recommend this guy who was punctual, and at £23 for the band (2 guitars, bass, PA and some lighting) was very reasonable I think.