PAT Testing and Public Liability Insurance

[russd1978]

[quote name='gilmour' post='114718' date='Jan 6 2008, 02:56 PM']I was alos under the impression that a publice ents license was down to the venue?[/quote]

Yeah Ill mention that to them, just wondered if anyone thought different?

[DaBassMonsta]

[quote name='russd1978' post='114715' date='Jan 6 2008, 03:54 PM']Hello, new here

Sorry to revive this thread from the depths of time, Im not a bass player but I worked as part of a bass/sax duo for some time if that helps me! Hehe,

I work mostly as a solo act since the bassist I worked with gave up the gigs to run his own business. I have a gig at The Ramada hotel in Maidstone and theyre asking for Public Liability (I have £1m with my MusicGuard gear insurance) and also PAT Testing (no probs have that all sorted) but theyre also mentioning whether I have a "Public Entertainments License" - surely thats down to the venue isnt it? Or is it another thing to add to the list?

It always amazes me how they get away with asking for this stuff when often I get to a hotel and their plugs are hanging off the walls with expose wires, it really suprises me that they want to check if my stuff is safe. Also surely if someone gets drunk because they served them too much booze and falls on my speaker why should my insurance cover it - surely their Public Liability would be responsible![/quote]
Funnily enough, we played the Ramada hotel in Farnham recently. Although they didn't mention any Entertainments licence, they did insist on the PAT testing and Public Liability Insurance (£5 Mil though).

With all the things happening, we had to set up just before lunchtime and found one of the mains sockets had an intermittent output, probably dodgy wiring. I moved along to the next socket where they'd used huge pan-headed screws instead of countersunk ones on the face plate. Because of this, we couldn't get a plug fully home and so couldn't use that one either! I informed reception who said they'd get their maintenance man to look at it later in the afternoon.

We return at Five to finalise things and apparently, the maintenance man has checked the sockets and they're fine. On testing, they're still the same, exactly as they were beforehand and the response was...

"Well it's too late to do anything about it now"

Luckily we got hold of an extension with a plug that would actually fit into the dodgy screw socket and the gig went ahead all fine, no thanks to the hotel.

[russd1978]

[quote name='BlueBear' post='114829' date='Jan 6 2008, 06:16 PM']Funnily enough, we played the Ramada hotel in Farnham recently. Although they didn't mention any Entertainments licence, they did insist on the PAT testing and Public Liability Insurance (£5 Mil though).

With all the things happening, we had to set up just before lunchtime and found one of the mains sockets had an intermittent output, probably dodgy wiring. I moved along to the next socket where they'd used huge pan-headed screws instead of countersunk ones on the face plate. Because of this, we couldn't get a plug fully home and so couldn't use that one either! I informed reception who said they'd get their maintenance man to look at it later in the afternoon.

We return at Five to finalise things and apparently, the maintenance man has checked the sockets and they're fine. On testing, they're still the same, exactly as they were beforehand and the response was...

"Well it's too late to do anything about it now"

Luckily we got hold of an extension with a plug that would actually fit into the dodgy screw socket and the gig went ahead all fine, no thanks to the hotel.[/quote]

Thanks for the info! Interesting about the £5m liability - surely THEIR liability should cover guests if they get drunk and fall on the bands speaker, not the bands! I only have £1m but im a solo act.

Amazing that they get away with the PAT certificate requirement when they are so inept themselves!

[bassace]

I heard recently that one of David Bowie's gigs had to be cancelled because the electrician didn't come up to scratch. He was known as the Man who Failed to Earth.

Sorry about that, Im feeling a bit hyper................

[Tinman]

I need something clearing up on the subject of liability, namely, I was always under the impression that if you are employed by a venue then it should be their responsibility to provide cover. Am I totally wrong in this?

[russd1978]

[quote name='Tinman' post='115237' date='Jan 7 2008, 09:11 AM']I need something clearing up on the subject of liability, namely, I was always under the impression that if you are employed by a venue then it should be their responsibility to provide cover. Am I totally wrong in this?[/quote]

I think legally the venue would have to be covered anyway - any musicians insurance company would probably look to the venue for part of the blame anyway depending on what happened (ie if someone is drunk and fall on your gear, its the venues fault for serving too much alcohol). Most of the weddings I do, Im employed by the couple not the venue tho.

[niceguyhomer]

Public Liability insurance is [b]not[/b] compulsory but Employer's Liability is.

Edited January 7, 2008 by niceguyhomer

[peted]

I've just been reading some of the Musicians Union literature and it does recommend that venues ensure that all equipment is properly PAT tested
[quote]Regular inspection and testing helps you to meet your legal requirements under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 and the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1992.[/quote]
I assume this is just to cover them in any legal proceedings and not compulsory. They also talk a bit about Public Liability Insurance
[quote]Public liability insurance protects against claims made by member of the public for both bodily injury and damage to property.

Increasingly local authorities and others who contract musicians and bands require written evidence that musicians are insured against Public Liability before the are able to perform.
...
Public Liability Insurance is provided by the MU to a current level of indemnity of £10million per individual member. This benefit of membership protects members against liability for bodily injury and/or loss or damage to a third person's property whilst performing either solo or as part of a group/band/orchestra and/or whilst teaching in a public or private place (including at home).[/quote]
Again, appears not to be a legal requirement. More a 'good practice' recommendation in case you find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit.

[russd1978]

[quote name='peted' post='115789' date='Jan 7 2008, 09:27 PM']I've just been reading some of the Musicians Union literature and it does recommend that venues ensure that all equipment is properly PAT tested

I assume this is just to cover them in any legal proceedings and not compulsory. They also talk a bit about Public Liability Insurance

Again, appears not to be a legal requirement. More a 'good practice' recommendation in case you find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit.[/quote]

So no one has heard about this "Public Entertainments License" the Ramada was on about?

[stevebasshead]

Drunken idiots falling over your gear could be argued as being the venues responsibility, especially if they'd supplied the alcohol to them in the first place. But I think the reason bands are sometimes expected to have PLI is in case you swing round and decapitate someone with your headstock, or a drumstick flies out into an unsuspecting audience member. Or worse, an audiences member :wacko:

[niceguyhomer]

We've been asked a couple of times for evidence of PAT testing and on both occasions I've asked to see evidence of their IEE Fixed Installations 5 yearly examination and on each occasion they disappeared and never came back.

[LLOYDWT]

If you only have a few items that require PAT testing, every major plant hire shop (HSS Hire, Speedy Hire) carries a clare tester (hire items have to be PAT tested after every hire) and for a nominal fee will test items on site.. Usually if it's only one or 2 things they'll do it on good will & not charge (atleast I did when I used to work for one).

[Musky]

[quote name='russd1978' post='116336' date='Jan 8 2008, 04:54 PM']So no one has heard about this "Public Entertainments License" the Ramada was on about?[/quote]

It's the venue that should have the PEL not you. If they're asking you to apply for a temporary license on their behalf you should just walk away. Though I think it's more likely that they just don't understand the regulations.

[russd1978]

Thanks for the replies.

I wouldnt mind getting my stuff tested if the venues had the same care and attention with THEIR electrics. Quite often you find plug sockets hanging off walls etc, and they ask US for certificates!! Madness.

[Andyalfa]

Just been asked to provide evidence of PLI to a venue we are playing soon. As far as I'm aware, we have none, so....

Is there anyone who will do [i]just [/i] PLI for the whole band in one go rather than as indiviual members? I can get "free" PLI with my instrument cover, but to add other band members will cost an extra £50 or so each. It'd be a whole lot easier to get one policy in the name of the band.

[Delberthot]

Have you tried joining the musician's union?

2 of our band members are members.

[hubrad]

I'm a freelance and an MU member, hence I have the union PLI cover. However, this only applies to me as an individual and not to a whole band in which I am performing. A couple of bands I do function gigs with now have a policy for the band. I'll try to find out where they go for these.
Another reason for MU membership is access to insurers who will give you a decent quote for vehicle insurance (if such a thing exists!) as part of a professional body.
On PAT testing, as far as I understand it, any Portable Appliance (i.e. amps etc for us, kettles and computers etc in a standard business) in a place of work is supposed to be checked. Last time I had gear tested, the tester said the hardwired Fender amp was to be done, but for my Trace head only the kettle lead needed doing as that's the bit that actually plugs into the mains. It appears to me that, rather like Building Regs, the rules are open to interpretation. Any surprise we get wound up about this issue? When it comes down to it, I'll still frequently check inside my own plugs looking for any loose or broken stuff, as 12 months is a long time in the life of a mains cable. A loose screw can mean an involuntary earth lift!

[Andyalfa]

I thought about that, but doesn't it only cover the individual member, rather than the whole band?

Edited January 28, 2009 by Andyalfa

[john_the_bass]

With pedal boards, if you use exclusively batteries for your power, do you need to have the board tested, and if you use a mains power supply, is it only the mains supply that will need to be tested and certificated?

[RayFW]

When I had my pedalboard tested, the chap only tested things with a mains lead and the mains leads themselves i.e the power supply, my VBass and their mains leads.

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='RayFW' post='424691' date='Mar 4 2009, 12:24 AM']When I had my pedalboard tested, the chap only tested things with a mains lead and the mains leads themselves i.e the power supply, my VBass and their mains leads.[/quote]

Correctomundo.

[Rich]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='53470' date='Aug 31 2007, 03:25 PM']Almost every theatre gig I've done has involved a contract specifying PAT testing but, as you say, pubs don't seem to bother (yet?).

The going rate seems to be £3.00 - £3.50 per item. Leastways, that's what we've ended up paying. LOL

I agree that most people you approach are not really geared up to be PAT testing gear for a 5 piece band and that [b]this should indeed be a pinned topic.[/b]
Same comments apply to the Public Liability Insurance issue too.[/quote]
There is now a pinned PAT testing topic/list. Glad to be of service

I put a wee dab of threadlock on the screws of the terminals in my mains plugs. It doesn't affect the electrical contact but it helps to stop them loosening.

[HeavyJay]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='53619' date='Aug 31 2007, 10:04 PM']Public liability insurance is NOT compulsory. When they ask you for evidence of PAT testing - ask to see evidence of their IEE Wiring Regulations Fixed installations examinations. If they can't produce that tell them to f*** off.[/quote]

I know I'm dragging up a very old thread but asking for this regulation (IEE Wiring Regulations Fixed installations examinations) has become my new favourite game. Recent victims are Leeds University and this weekend, the Holiday Inn chain. So much fun to be had!

I owe you one NiceGuyHomer, I owe you big time.

Kindest Regards.

[ead]

Please can anybody point me in the direction of a decent sparky in the Lancs area for PAT testing for the band that the hotel is demanding. Doubly iritating as it's my birthday party we're playing at.

[51m0n]

I'm after a similar service in or around Brighton, any ideas?