PAT Testing and Public Liability Insurance

[ead]

Pardon my general ignorance but what gear actually requires PAT testing? Is it just the kettle leads that plug into the outside world or is it every amp/active piece of kit?

[casapete]

As I understand it, anything that has a plug on it needs testing.That includes the unit as well as the lead.
However, not sure all PAT testers see it this way - there seem to be some firms that have sprung up since the ruling that just plug
the lead in and okay the gear / issue a certificate.
Guess it depends on what price you put on safety / yourself etc.

(Believe that the whole PAT thing may soon be abandoned anyway due to poor standards - anyone else heard this?)

[flyfisher]

[quote name='ead' post='972335' date='Sep 30 2010, 08:37 AM']Pardon my general ignorance but what gear actually requires PAT testing? Is it just the kettle leads that plug into the outside world or is it every amp/active piece of kit? [/quote]

PAT = [b]Portable[/b] Applicance Testing

[i]"The National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers (napit) define a portable appliance as 'any electrical item which can or is intended, to be moved whilst connected to an electrical supply."[/i]

That quote is from: [url="http://www.pat-testing.info/appliance.htm"]http://www.pat-testing.info/appliance.htm[/url]. There is is a lot more info on that website, including the legal background to the requirements.

I like the idea of asking the venue for their "IEE Wiring Regulations Fixed installations examinations". Seems like a fair exchange; they're asking for proof that your equipment is safe to use on their premises, so why not ask them for proof that their electrical system is safe to power your equipment?

[JTUK]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='53619' date='Aug 31 2007, 10:04 PM']Public liability insurance is NOT compulsory. When they ask you for evidence of PAT testing - ask to see evidence of their IEE Wiring Regulations Fixed installations examinations. If they can't produce that tell them to f*** off.[/quote]


A lot of festival type gigs ask for this ..or are asked by the council granting the festival licence to ask for this from performers etc .

As far as I know gear under 1 yr is exempt from PAT. PLI is normally the resposibility of the venue/organisers.
But, yes, it is as well to be conversant and compliant as it may well be the difference between being able to do the gig or not.

[casapete]

[quote name='JTUK' post='972430' date='Sep 30 2010, 10:18 AM']A lot of festival type gigs ask for this ..or are asked by the council granting the festival licence to ask for this from performers etc .

As far as I know gear under 1 yr is exempt from PAT. PLI is normally the resposibility of the venue/organisers.
But, yes, it is as well to be conversant and compliant as it may well be the difference between being able to do the gig or not.[/quote]


I've been asked for PLI a few times this year, mainly hotels - any idea whether this is now compulsory for musos/acts to provide their own?

[ikay]

[quote name='Rich' post='424897' date='Mar 4 2009, 12:24 PM']There is now a pinned PAT testing topic/list. Glad to be of service [/quote]

Where is this? I don't see a pinned PAT testing sticky at the top of the General Bass Discussion area. BTW I agree this would be very useful, my band has recently had a painful and costly experience with PLI and PAT testing. Even the chap who did our PAT testing agreed it wasn't worth the label it was printed on!

[daz]

[quote name='HeavyJay' post='850712' date='May 28 2010, 10:03 PM']I know I'm dragging up a very old thread but asking for this regulation (IEE Wiring Regulations Fixed installations examinations) has become my new favourite game. Recent victims are Leeds University and this weekend, the Holiday Inn chain. So much fun to be had!

I owe you one NiceGuyHomer, I owe you big time.

Kindest Regards.[/quote]
nice one.

[JTUK]

[quote name='casapete' post='972799' date='Sep 30 2010, 03:20 PM']I've been asked for PLI a few times this year, mainly hotels - any idea whether this is now compulsory for musos/acts to provide their own?[/quote]


I don't think it is...and may well be the hotel/venue/organiser trying to sub out their own responsibilities.
I would imagine local councils H&S are having a field day and there is a lot of confusion going on, tho.

It is something we will look into more ..esp for outdoor gigs.

[john_the_bass]

As far as I understand (as a tester) it's not compulsory at all but if you are an employer you have a duty of care to your employees to make sure you provide them with safe equipment if they use it in conjuntion with their jobs, which is largely covered by the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations and the Electricity At Work act. How that works with bands, I don't really know - I wouldn't say it's compulsory but a lot of venues will either request you're tested as part of their own procedure or as a requirement of their insurance policy. I have heard recently that Holiday Inn have been asking everybody (I had 4 DJs in one week who had Holiday Inn gigs) which suggests somebody might have had an accident or their insurer is requesting it or possibly there's been a change of management and the new bloke wants everybody who comes in to be tested.

Some equipment doesn't actually need to be tested, subject to the type of equipment and the environment it's used in - Class 2 equipment (double insulated without an earth) used in offices and shops (by staff, not by members of the public) doesn't need to have a combined inspection and test (ie it doesn't have to be plugged into the machine). If you're taking your stuff out to venues week in, week out and have somebody who's not too careful with the cable, screws it up and chucks it in a case, I'd personally have it tested. If you check it regularly, take your plug tops off (if they're not moulded) and check for loose connections, your stuff is probably alright but for the sake of a few quid, it's worth having it checked once a year - of course I am biased

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='HeavyJay' post='850712' date='May 28 2010, 10:03 PM']I know I'm dragging up a very old thread but asking for this regulation (IEE Wiring Regulations Fixed installations examinations) has become my new favourite game. Recent victims are Leeds University and this weekend, the Holiday Inn chain. So much fun to be had!

I owe you one NiceGuyHomer, I owe you big time.

Kindest Regards.[/quote]

OK Guys actual electrician here now! Full NIC registered (Not just part P domestic either) This statement above is rubbish! Yes it will fox the waitress thats showing you where to put your empty cases etc but at no point would I expect any members of staff other than managers that would usually only be around during 9-5 hours to have access to these documents as they will often be kept with insurance papers and important personal papers.For your example Leeds uni they would have a massive document for the larger areas kept by the Maintainence dept not behind the student bar!
Sometimes the fact they have an entertainments licence will be enough to ensure they will have one under local authority rules and most brewery run pubs will too.

If a venue has a policy for you to prove your gear is PAT tested it will be down to them as to how strongly they want to stick to their own rule as to whether you perform or not!

Any decent local sparky should be able to do a few items for you,If it were me on the way home or after work I would be looking at £10-15 an hour which is all it should take anyway + a brew obviously!

And Im not sure who was on about a sewing machine but if it were an industrial one it would not have a 13A plugtop,I would of thought maybe a 5A fuse should be OK to cover the startup surge but I agree with him on removing the 13A that you usually find in everything.

[TimR]

I think one of the problems is that many people don't keep their gear in good order.

We had a keyboard player depping with us for a dinner and dance once. During the sound check his keyboard kept cutting in and out. I traced the problem to 3 plugtops where the cables were practically falling out. Everytime he moved, the cables would move and pull out of the plug. Once we found the problem he said "OK, I'll just keep my foot on it all night to hold them in". I rewired the plugs in about 5mins and we were good to go.

At another gig we soundchecked. All OK. We went on and there was a terrible buzzing. It turned out that the drummers rabbit had chewed through the extension lead that he was using for his fan. But it was ok because he had fixed it with insulation tape.

There was also a stage (before cheap Chinese lighting) where people were making their own stage lights. I've seen some incredibly dangerous things!

I found a local PAT tester who did all our gear for 50p an item. Visually inspected all the IEC leads, plugged them into his box of tricks, stuck a sticker on them with his signature and a expiry date. He only did one of the tests on the amps, lights and keyboard as they contain sensitive components. Gave us a book with his card and a list of all the gear tested and the dates.

Edited September 30, 2010 by TimR

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='972976' date='Sep 30 2010, 05:38 PM']And Im not sure who was on about a sewing machine but if it were an industrial one it would not have a 13A plugtop,I would of thought maybe a 5A fuse should be OK to cover the startup surge but I agree with him on removing the 13A that you usually find in everything.[/quote]

This is a pet hate of mine. It seems prevalent amongst electricians. Leave the fuse as it is! The fuse is there to protect the cable not the equipment and sized as such.

Edited September 30, 2010 by TimR

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' post='973142' date='Sep 30 2010, 08:16 PM']This is a pet hate of mine. It seems prevalent amongst electricians. Leave the fuse as it is! The fuse is there to protect the cable not the equipment and sized as such.[/quote]
Utter Rubbish!
I know what you are thinking and if the first thing the cable goes to after the kettle plug is its own fuse (which it will state what size clearly like most of amps) but if it does not or is a fixed lead item it needs the right fuse. House fires are a bit of a "pet hate of mine" mate and seen plenty because of your wack a 13A in attitude many resulting in death!

This is why as some of you have said earlier that its a bit of a farce unless carried out by a proper sparky.
TimR do you know the rating of .75mm flex? I will give you a clue Its not 13A.
And have you ever tried to see how many amps a 13A fuse will take? Its about twice as much for plenty long enough to set a fire going.

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='973157' date='Sep 30 2010, 08:28 PM']Utter Rubbish!
I know what you are thinking and if the first thing the cable goes to after the kettle plug is its own fuse (which it will state what size clearly like most of amps) but if it does not or is a fixed lead item it needs the right fuse. House fires are a bit of a "pet hate of mine" mate and seen plenty because of your wack a 13A in attitude many resulting in death!

This is why as some of you have said earlier that its a bit of a farce unless carried out by a proper sparky.
TimR do you know the rating of .75mm flex? I will give you a clue Its not 13A.
And have you ever tried to see how many amps a 13A fuse will take? Its about twice as much for plenty long enough to set a fire going.[/quote]

I said leave the fuse as it is. Not "whack a 13A in".

A proper 'sparky' will fit the correct fuse, assuming he reads the spec. that the electrical engineer gave him.

Read the post properly.

[stingrayPete1977]

Did you read the full post about the sewing machine?
The machine already had the incorrect fuse so leaving it as is would meen leaving it at 13A which the person posting said would be right as the machine had a high startup surge and blew the 2A the sparky doing the PAT test had put in it.I think the sparky was right to lower it even taking into account a 2 and a half times running current on startup surge but a 5A would of been a better choice than the 2A.

The problem with leaving as you find it is that if someone has already been messing or more often is the case it came with a 13A in the plugtop they fitted from something else or a new one from B&Q etc (although more and more are supplied with a 3A now) Hence the need for PAT testing in the first place although I do agree with you that a big part of the problem is people keeping their gear in a bad state in the first place.

As for PAT's being abolished, Well we are a small/medium firm with 14 Electricians (3 of which me and 2 brothers)And their is not one word of that in the industry for certain.One thing that is a problem and I have seen a case very recently is where the manager sent the handyman on a 2 day course to do PAT testing and when he came back they asked him to fit a 300A 3 phase main switch that feeds the whole site as in their eyes he is now an electrician!I work mostly on schools where the caretakers do it themselves and the stuff they miss like the old unsleeved plugtops,No earths on brass lamp holders etc etc is literally shocking and as soon as a accident does happen all the PAT testing will become only valid if carried out by properly trained people i.e electricans/technicians rather than any of the half day courses and the like.

Edited September 30, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' post='973192' date='Sep 30 2010, 08:58 PM']I said leave the fuse as it is. Not "whack a 13A in".

A proper 'sparky' will fit the correct fuse, assuming he reads the spec. that the electrical engineer gave him.

Read the post properly.[/quote]

Who is giving me as an electrician a spec to work from if I come to test your gear?

[TimR]

The incompetent PAT tester took out the original 13A and put a 2A in. He looked at the machine rating not the cable. I'm not getting bogged down in this as we're talking about PAT testing in a band environment and this is derailing the thread.

The PAT tester will spot damaged cabling and badly earthed gear and prevent it getting used.

Usually portable band gear is not left powered on and unattended for long periods of time. If it does burst into flame there will usually be someone to spot it early on. In the real world of gigging the most likely fault is a cable that has been cut trough by the drummer's stands or had a heavy amp dropped on. This will cause a short and blow the fuse, or trip the RCD pretty quick.

Essentially its all about managing risk, not just a paper exercise.

I'm sure we all know a musician whose power cables are in a state and keeps promising to "get it looked at". Annual PAT testing gives him a reason to.

Its a good idea to always put your own RCD on your amp as well!

And get one of these: [url="http://www.martindale-electric.co.uk/index.php?products_id=225&osCsid=4daa3b72ca2550a9bc875dc9c7a085f8"]Buzz It[/url] to check the dodgy wiring of the pub before you plug your amp into it.

[stingrayPete1977]

Its totally on topic, OK this was a sewing machine not an amp but its just the same.The 13A fuse was wrong and correctly swapped although he went a size too small. This idea of fuse protecting the cabling is only ok if the lead goes to a fuse carrier to lower it to specified rating often incorporating time delay or slow blow fuses for the startup problem but the internal wires will often be a lot smaller than the lead as they are protected by the object itself where as the lead needs some resistance of a physical nature to withstand normal use hence the need to fuse things down.

Another problem of our gear is a lot of the big less often used stuff is kept in damp environments like garages etc where the internal insulation can be comprimised and earth arrangements are not used in double insulated or class 2 items so a lot of the simple tests do not show up faults until you plug it in at the gig and everything blows!
+1 for using an RCD on the ends of your extension leads and stuff as this will protect you from the venues cabling if their is a problem but again even a PAT test wont reveal a faulty none operational RCD you will need the full gear a proper sparky carries to test those.

Edited September 30, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[TimR]

OK. I'll play.

I've checked my wife's sewing machine. It has a 0.75mm2 cable that goes straight to a speed controller that is rated at 1A. It has a 3A fuse fitted at the plug top.

Now before you reply please go and physically check the sewing machine mentioned in the above post before jumping to any more conclusions. You are supposed to be a qualified electrician FFS!

My amp has the same size wiring all the way to the transformer. Which is rated at 3A on the plate but as it's a transformer pulls up to 10x the current on start up. I'll keep a 13A fuse in it if that's OK with you.

Edited September 30, 2010 by TimR

[Telebass]

If you go back to earlier in this thread, you'll see that I mentioned this inapprpropriate downrating problem. I only ever saw qualified electricians do this. However, it was earlier in the history of PAT testing. Example: MD's desktop PC with PSU rated around 500W - sparky fits a 3 amp fuse. Next morning, muggins gets a call from the MD wanting an explanation as to why his PC doesn't work...I had to recheck everything the sparks done the day before, and I had to change a LOT of fuses.
Hopefully, by this time, they've learnt to get it right...

[JTUK]

Good to read PAT testing is cheap..so most bands would be stupid not to comply if only to be able to get those gigs that others cannot due to a piece of paper.
Of course, point taken about stupid wiring as well.

[HeavyJay]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='972976' date='Sep 30 2010, 05:38 PM']OK Guys actual electrician here now! Full NIC registered (Not just part P domestic either) This statement above is rubbish! Yes it will fox the waitress thats showing you where to put your empty cases etc but at no point would I expect any members of staff other than managers that would usually only be around during 9-5 hours to have access to these documents as they will often be kept with insurance papers and important personal papers.For your example Leeds uni they would have a massive document for the larger areas kept by the Maintainence dept not behind the student bar!
Sometimes the fact they have an entertainments licence will be enough to ensure they will have one under local authority rules and most brewery run pubs will too.

If a venue has a policy for you to prove your gear is PAT tested it will be down to them as to how strongly they want to stick to their own rule as to whether you perform or not!

Any decent local sparky should be able to do a few items for you,If it were me on the way home or after work I would be looking at £10-15 an hour which is all it should take anyway + a brew obviously!

And Im not sure who was on about a sewing machine but if it were an industrial one it would not have a 13A plugtop,I would of thought maybe a 5A fuse should be OK to cover the startup surge but I agree with him on removing the 13A that you usually find in everything.[/quote]

So what about that makes my statement rubbish?

Is NiceGuyHomer's point about the IEE fixed installations 5 year examination certificate invalid?

Incidentally I didn't ask a waitress or member of the bar staff for this, i asked the facilities management department and the events manager respectively via email several months before the gigs in question and only when they asked me for our certificates.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' post='973259' date='Sep 30 2010, 09:55 PM']OK. I'll play.

I've checked my wife's sewing machine. It has a 0.75mm2 cable that goes straight to a speed controller that is rated at 1A. It has a 3A fuse fitted at the plug top.

Now before you reply please go and physically check the sewing machine mentioned in the above post before jumping to any more conclusions. You are supposed to be a qualified electrician FFS!

My amp has the same size wiring all the way to the transformer. Which is rated at 3A on the plate but as it's a transformer pulls up to 10x the current on start up. I'll keep a 13A fuse in it if that's OK with you.[/quote]

The above mentioned sewing machine was supposed to be an industrial one with a 2A motor, I clearly said he was right to remove the 13A which is too big but should of fitted a 5A to overcome the startup load which works out the same as your wifes at 1A with room for startup at 3A.(They dont do a 6A,10A still too big)

[b]Right your amp[/b],you are totaly barking up the wrong tree here.If it has a kettle lead or as everyone other than sparkys call it an IEC lead this will normally go into the amp then straight to an inline fuse before the rest of the circuit which can often be extracted without opening the unit for warranty reasons etc, Often a red carrier with the correct fuse size clearly printed along side but not all items will be this clear for example my Genz shuttle 6 does not have a fuse carrier but if you read more closely it does state internal fuse T-5A which has a time delay to protect against nuisance blowing on startup so although the lead has a 13A fuse this rating is reduced imediatley when the power enters the amp.Do you get it yet after all I am an electrician FFS!

[b]Also fire risk number 2 [/b]with your leave the fuse alone attitude working solely on the cable size is this,Some items will have a long lead for the operator yet only a small electrical load on the end but it will need maybe 1.5/2.5mm cable rather than say .75 like your wifes machine because of the resistance of the long lead and the volt drop this will create ie a small low powered hoover or lawnmower for instance.You come along "oh its 1.5 mm" pop a 13A fuse in which is fine as 1.5 will take 18 amps and this will create a problem once you factor in the length of the cable and the situation it is used in.This is why some extension reels are only rated at 10A max fuse (3A load if coiled due to eddy currents created from the wound cable).

Would you like a link with a chart of the correct fuse sizes as to which appliance has which rating fuse regardless of the power leads cable cross sectional diameter?
[url="http://www.dcfire.co.uk/portable_appliance_testing"]http://www.dcfire.co.uk/portable_appliance_testing[/url] The 5A idea is fairly new as some people have pointed out the idea of a 2 fuse system (3A and 13A only)has limitations so its good to see this company (not mine) adopting this good practice which will no doubt become standard practice in due course.

We can go further if you like? I have not even pulled apart your cable size to fuse theory on ADS (automatic disconnection of supply) which is the only system now used in the UK and factors in things like cable size/fuse size/type of equipment etc to ensure that the item/circuit disconnects within the set time 5s or .4s depending on if its fixed/portable and indoor/outdoor which if a fuse is too large can make the reading too high to be safe and the best way is to downgrade the fuse to the minimun required or use an RCD as the main protection but it has to be fixed rather than a plug in one.

What more can I say? By all means carry on telling everyone what an idiot you think I am with your "supposed to be an electrician FFS!" comments but I think its fair to say you are so far out your depth on this that I dont feel the need to stoop to those levels of personal abuse as you dont know me and I dont know you.

Please everyone else consult a competant person on electrical issues as you can see what a mine field it is and why its often the only thing even experienced builders and property developers leave to the experts.

Edited October 1, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='HeavyJay' post='973980' date='Oct 1 2010, 01:50 PM']So what about that makes my statement rubbish?

Is NiceGuyHomer's point about the IEE fixed installations 5 year examination certificate invalid?

Incidentally I didn't ask a waitress or member of the bar staff for this, i asked the facilities management department and the events manager respectively via email several months before the gigs in question and only when they asked me for our certificates.[/quote]

If you had asked any of the venues we carry out the fixed wiring tests (Or periodic Inspection to give it its proper name)for this we can supply a duplicate via either email or a proper legal paper duplicate within a hour or so as its all kept on computer or using NCR paper handwritten ones (I have just finished a 40 page one today!) and the yellow copies are kept under lock and key but they can be scanned in just the same.Sooner or later a venue will call your bluff.What will you do if you get their and they say "Our friendly local electrician is in a band and has popped down to watch you play and bought the Periodic Inspection documents with him"?

The five year IEE cert is correct but this is where you might find a problem,If the building is leased (as many are) then it may not be their responsibilty to do the cert anyway and many establishments carry them out every year nowadays.In this case the pub/club/venue would not have any access to the docs at all unless you really wanted to see them and maybe they would contact the landlord to produce it? Unlikely for a band me thinks.

And again if the local fire officer has insisted as part of the Entertainments licence that all performers produce PAT test certs for the gear its going to be down to the venue not your band as to whether they want to risk infringing the rules I think some would and some (any that have been checked up on or had an electrical incident) will not.For what it will cost you just get them tested and make sure you get a paper copy with a list of items tested too that way even if the stickers fall off or rub off you can show its been done from the brief description on the list. ie "Mackie PA speaker" will be fine.

For a change I do know what Im on about (TimR) and its not like a which is best P bass or Jazz we have rules (BS7671) to follow maybe BASSCHAT could create its own set? Rule No-1 Thou shall never mention a weak G String on a MusicMan!

Edited October 1, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Telebass' post='973546' date='Oct 1 2010, 08:47 AM']If you go back to earlier in this thread, you'll see that I mentioned this inapprpropriate downrating problem. I only ever saw qualified electricians do this. However, it was earlier in the history of PAT testing. Example: MD's desktop PC with PSU rated around 500W - sparky fits a 3 amp fuse. Next morning, muggins gets a call from the MD wanting an explanation as to why his PC doesn't work...I had to recheck everything the sparks done the day before, and I had to change a LOT of fuses.
Hopefully, by this time, they've learnt to get it right...[/quote]

Same thing applies here ,5A would of been a better choice and again the lead will almost certainly go directly to an internal fuse rated a lot lower than 13A,Thats ok for the lead but not the PSU, The manufacturers will have included this in their design and probably a degree of anti surge/spike too if its a PSU.