Ray Brown's bass method

[Guest subaudio]

Hi All

I bought Ray Brown's Bass book and started working through it last night, the first exercise is playing a one octave major scale through all the keys and then the major and minor triad

In the book he starts with E major and works chromatically up untill all twelve keys have been played, (E, F, F#, G, G# etc)this strikes me as a little odd, is there a reason I'm unaware of that he has done it in this way as I would have thought working through the cycle of 5ths would be the way to do it, I'm not knocking the book I have learnt a lot by playing the exercises, I just wanderd if there was a reason for his aproach

Cheers
Marti

[jakenewmanbass]

Hi Marti,
I would think there is no particular reason as from what I know of Ray Brown he was very much a 'be able to do it all' kind of guy, he and Herb Ellis were famous for rehearsing "the possibles" all afternoon before a show, and then jamming into the night after shows hence getting as tight as they did.
So my guess would be that the method is simply to get the material down on paper... and remember that when you have worked through that book and all the others, that you have walked the first mile of a 100,000 mile journey.

Jake

[Guest subaudio]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='509938' date='Jun 10 2009, 09:51 AM']Hi Marti,
I would think there is no particular reason as from what I know of Ray Brown he was very much a 'be able to do it all' kind of guy, he and Herb Ellis were famous for rehearsing "the possibles" all afternoon before a show, and then jamming into the night after shows hence getting as tight as they did.
So my guess would be that the method is simply to get the material down on paper... and remember that when you have worked through that book and all the others, that you have walked the first mile of a 100,000 mile journey.

Jake[/quote]

Hi Jake

That makes sense, the book is very no nonsense, hardly any writting at all in the book beyond the first chapter, but again, I have learnt from the very first exercise so I'm not doubting the quality of the information, it seems almost as if the figuring out what he means in the exercise is part of the exercise.

I agree, the deeper you go, the deeper it gets, seems to be the way of Jazz double bass, strangeley that is absolutley fine with me

[jakenewmanbass]

If you don't have it already I would recommend Rufus Reid's book, 'The Evolving Bassist' it has a really good combination of technical exercises and ideas on how to construct walking lines, for intermediate to advanced. A damn good book IMO.
Jake

[endorka]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='509963' date='Jun 10 2009, 10:25 AM']If you don't have it already I would recommend Rufus Reid's book, 'The Evolving Bassist' it has a really good combination of technical exercises and ideas on how to construct walking lines, for intermediate to advanced. A damn good book IMO.
Jake[/quote]

I own several of these books, probably my most used is Chuck Sher's "Improvisor's Bass Method", which I started using about eighteen years ago. Scary thought!

I've been looking at these books again recently, and my opinion is that I could probably revisit them in their entirety and gain much more than I did when I first studied them. The reason being that the experience of playing jazz for almost two decades allows me to interpret the information and lessons contained within them in a far more meaningful and structured way.

With all the will in the world, there is simply no way I could have obtained the same information the first time round by myself... but if I had used the services of a tutor, I think I could have.

Over the last couple of years I've been studying classical music, and it's the same with Simandl etc., but this time I have a tutor and it really does cut out a lot of the time spent staggering around in darkness figuring out things yourself. My experience of teaching would also indicate this.

In a nutshell, I think the capability of books to self-educate people is limited, for the most part. Additional teaching support is almost certainly a requirement.

Jennifer

Edited June 10, 2009 by endorka

[Guest subaudio]

[quote name='endorka' post='510024' date='Jun 10 2009, 11:41 AM']I own several of these books, probably my most used is Chuck Sher's "Improvisor's Bass Method", which I started using about eighteen years ago. Scary thought!

I've been looking at these books again recently, and my opinion is that I could probably revisit them in their entirety and gain much more than I did when I first studied them. The reason being that the experience of playing jazz for almost two decades allows me to interpret the information and lessons contained within them in a far more meaningful and structured way.

With all the will in the world, there is simply no way I could have obtained the same information the first time round by myself... but if I had used the services of a tutor, I think I could have.

Over the last couple of years I've been studying classical music, and it's the same with Simandl etc., but this time I have a tutor and it really does cut out a lot of the time spent staggering around in darkness figuring out things yourself. My experience of teaching would also indicate this.

In a nutshell, I think the capability of books to self-educate people is limited, for the most part. Additional teaching support is almost certainly a requirement.

Jennifer[/quote]

Hi Jennifer

That makes a great deal of sense, I have a very good bass guitar tutor but I havent been able to find a double bass teacher, I did have a great one but he is very buisy gigging.

I have a reasonable ammount of theory behind me, what I really need at the momment is the finger board positions to keep me intonated and make playing easier and more effecient and then to advance into the more technical and theoretical side of Jazz

I have the Rufus book and DVD and both are great but I need to start a little more basic and work my way into were his book starts from.

At some point my knowledge and theory from bass guitar will begin to merge with the DB and I can really start studying Jazz propper but I need to get the physical bassics across the fingerboard down first.

Does any one know of anything aimed more toward that, that I can work on on my own, Simandl seems to be as you say a little difficult to work from without a teacher.

Thanks again all for the great info so far.

[endorka]

[quote name='subaudio' post='510041' date='Jun 10 2009, 12:00 PM']At some point my knowledge and theory from bass guitar will begin to merge with the DB and I can really start studying Jazz propper but I need to get the physical bassics across the fingerboard down first.

Does any one know of anything aimed more toward that, that I can work on on my own, Simandl seems to be as you say a little difficult to work from without a teacher.[/quote]

The "Evolving Bassist" has a good couple of exercises for getting your intonation and "muscle memory" together - they are Etudes II and III, starting at page 44 in my copy of the book. It is essential to do these very slowly, I'd say metronome set to crotchet=30 or even less, and also check the intonation of every note with a tuner as you're playing. If you have a sequencer or some similar software it is very instructive to program the exercises into it, then play along with them to check your tuning. Beware, this can be brutally revealing!

A similar approach can be taken with scales and arpeggios, I'll try to think of some decent books or examples for this. Another aspect of the double bass vs. bass guitar is the emphasis on working out fingerings for the music; doing the same thing in exactly the same way every time will make learning more efficient and improve intonation. The same applies to bass guitar, of course, but often people seem to take a looser approach on this instrument.

Jennifer

[endorka]

And I almost forgot to mention - for best results in improving intonation, the above should be done with the bow :-)

Jennifer

[Guest subaudio]

Thanks for that Jennifer, I'll check out the Etude tonight.

I spent a good hour working through the scale excersises in the Ray Brown book last night and it has tought me some intresting new fingerings for scales that I wouldnt have found on my own and it really utilises the open strings which is a great intonation check, cant wait to move on into the higher positions.

The bow is a bit mercyless sometimes isnt it, I practice unplugged on my NS with the bow so the neighbours dont call the cat protection league

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='subaudio' post='510847' date='Jun 11 2009, 07:10 AM']I spent a good hour working through the scale excersises in the Ray Brown book last night and it has tought me some intresting new fingerings for scales that I wouldnt have found on my own and it really utilises the open strings which is a great intonation check, cant wait to move on into the higher positions.[/quote]
Was that fingerings actually written in the book, or the fingerings you worked out ?

I confess to getting a bit frustrated with that book because of the lack of fingerings. I can't work out if there's some point in the fingered exercises that should be obviously carried over to the unfingered ones, or whether I can work out whatever I like and it doesn't really matter.

The brief time I've spent with DB tutors working out fingerings and shifts has been much more use to me than that book so far. I'd like to get more out of the book ... is working through it with a tutor the only answer ?

Andy

[Guest subaudio]

[quote name='BigBeatNut' post='510864' date='Jun 11 2009, 08:39 AM']Was that fingerings actually written in the book, or the fingerings you worked out ?

I confess to getting a bit frustrated with that book because of the lack of fingerings. I can't work out if there's some point in the fingered exercises that should be obviously carried over to the unfingered ones, or whether I can work out whatever I like and it doesn't really matter.

The brief time I've spent with DB tutors working out fingerings and shifts has been much more use to me than that book so far. I'd like to get more out of the book ... is working through it with a tutor the only answer ?

Andy[/quote]

Hi Andy

I was using the fingerings in the book, I havent entirely figured out his system yet but there are a lot of common shifts and hope this will be revealed more as I progress through it, I have noticed that I tend to be much more in tune and comfortable using the fingerings he uses than when I use the fingerings I have come up with using modified bass guitar technique.

He does miss out the fingerings in later exercises but again I'm hoping by the time I work my way through to that point in the book it will all have been coverd, heres hoping anyway.

I have played bass guitar for twenty years and am still having lessons on and off, and I would say if possible it's always better to have a teacher, sadly I cant find one for double bass at the momment.

Marti

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='subaudio' post='509882' date='Jun 10 2009, 08:55 AM']Hi All

I bought Ray Brown's Bass book and started working through it last night, the first exercise is playing a one octave major scale through all the keys and then the major and minor triad

In the book he starts with E major and works chromatically up untill all twelve keys have been played, (E, F, F#, G, G# etc)this strikes me as a little odd, is there a reason I'm unaware of that he has done it in this way as I would have thought working through the cycle of 5ths would be the way to do it, I'm not knocking the book I have learnt a lot by playing the exercises, I just wanderd if there was a reason for his aproach

Cheers
Marti[/quote]
Marti dear boy

I'm not familiar with this particular book, but it strikes me that Mr Brown is aiming his method at players who have already learnt the basics and are widening their scope to cover jazz / improvised playing. No decent teacher would have their pupils learning all the scales chromatically from day one - that's quite absurd ! That's why the Simandl book is so highly regarded - it is well graded, taking the student through the positions gradually and thoroughly, building knowledge of finguring while slowly introducing different rhythms and bowing styles.
Incidentally, I always insist that my jazz students learn to use the bow. What better way is there to check your intonation and left hand sustain ?
Can I suggest that getting a decent teacher should be a priority ? I notice from your photo that already you are developing a bad left hand position. A good teacher would soon sort that out !

Tally ho
The Major
(Major F Minor)

[Guest subaudio]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='511913' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:43 AM']Marti dear boy

I'm not familiar with this particular book, but it strikes me that Mr Brown is aiming his method at players who have already learnt the basics and are widening their scope to cover jazz / improvised playing. No decent teacher would have their pupils learning all the scales chromatically from day one - that's quite absurd ! That's why the Simandl book is so highly regarded - it is well graded, taking the student through the positions gradually and thoroughly, building knowledge of finguring while slowly introducing different rhythms and bowing styles.
Incidentally, I always insist that my jazz students learn to use the bow. What better way is there to check your intonation and left hand sustain ?
Can I suggest that getting a decent teacher should be a priority ? I notice from your photo that already you are developing a bad left hand position. A good teacher would soon sort that out !

Tally ho
The Major
(Major F Minor)[/quote]

Hello there

Thanks for the comment, in the photo I am perching on a window ledge which is bringing my elbow down and giving me a strange wrist angle, well spotted ! I must admit I am very open to advise on technique so your observations are welcome.

I would love to work with a good teacher, unfortunately I cant find one at the moment but am looking.

I agree that the chromatic approach to the exercises is more geared towards those with a more developed knowledge, I have been playing electric bass guitar for some time and have a good practical knowledge of theory in a non Jazz environment, my issues are firstly, physical technique on the double bass, which is my most immediate priority and then learning to play Jazz.

I spent a good two hours working on the twelve exercises in Ray Browns book last night and really feel I have learned from them and look forward to progressing through the book, I am currently ordering every book I can find on double bass, I have just orderd "Improvisers bass method" at Endorka's recommendation and I will certainly be ordering Simandl in the very near future

Marti

[wulf]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='511913' date='Jun 12 2009, 09:43 AM']That's why the Simandl book is so highly regarded - it is well graded, taking the student through the positions gradually and thoroughly, building knowledge of finguring while slowly introducing different rhythms and bowing styles.[/quote]
I'm not sure I would put "well-graded" as an adjective for the Simandl book! It works through the given positions from one end of the neck to the other and, while it does start rhythmically simple, seems to take delight in forcing the student to recognise every possible combination of natural, sharp, flat, double-sharp and double-flat option for naming each pitch. Approaching it after 20 or so years of playing bass guitar, this wasn't too bad in itself, but I think it would seem unnecessarily mystifying if I'd begun with no idea what music was about.

Wulf

[rslaing]

[quote name='wulf' post='511988' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:49 AM']I'm not sure I would put "well-graded" as an adjective for the Simandl book! It works through the given positions from one end of the neck to the other and, while it does start rhythmically simple, seems to take delight in forcing the student to recognise every possible combination of natural, sharp, flat, double-sharp and double-flat option for naming each pitch. Approaching it after 20 or so years of playing bass guitar, this wasn't too bad in itself, but I think it would seem unnecessarily mystifying if I'd begun with no idea what music was about.

Wulf[/quote]

I disagree.........I bought the 2 Simandl books (when I read Pastorius raving about them!) and the first one obviously starts with the most primitive and elementary aspects of playing and reading music. The second book takes you through to the highest levels of playing.

Although I have still not learned to read tenor clef proficiently.

The Simandl stuff is highly recommended by most teachers and professionals, why do you think it seems unnecessarily mystifying?

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='512001' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:58 AM']I disagree.........I bought the 2 Simandl books (when I read Pastorius raving about them!) and the first one obviously starts with the most primitive and elementary aspects of playing and reading music. The second book takes you through to the highest levels of playing.

Although I have still not learned to read tenor clef proficiently.

The Simandl stuff is highly recommended by most teachers and professionals, why do you think it seems unnecessarily mystifying?[/quote]
This seems strange - where would you expect to start learning if not with "the most primitive and elementary aspects of playing and reading music" ? Most beginners that I have taught struggle even with a row of crotchets in half position.

Learning any instrument is a gradual process. Simandl takes you from the basics to the solo repertoire in graded steps.
What possibly confuses some bass guitar players moving to DB is the terminology re positions ie half position and intermediate positions etc. But once you have mastered these positions you no longer think about what they are called.

Don't worry about not reading tenor clef proficiently - as long as you know say F up to C at sight, then you can work out any other notes from that. And lets face it, tenor clef is mostly used in the solo rep where you would "learn" the music anyway.

As much as I champion the use of Simandl, I'm sure there is room for a new double bass tutor book that is clear and concise - perhaps I'll write one when I retire!

Tally Ho
The Major
(Major F Minor)

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='512026' date='Jun 12 2009, 12:24 PM']This seems strange - where would you expect to start learning if not with "the most primitive and elementary aspects of playing and reading music" ? Most beginners that I have taught struggle even with a row of crotchets in half position.

Learning any instrument is a gradual process. Simandl takes you from the basics to the solo repertoire in graded steps.
What possibly confuses some bass guitar players moving to DB is the terminology re positions ie half position and intermediate positions etc. But once you have mastered these positions you no longer think about what they are called.

Don't worry about not reading tenor clef proficiently - as long as you know say F up to C at sight, then you can work out any other notes from that. And lets face it, tenor clef is mostly used in the solo rep where you would "learn" the music anyway.

As much as I champion the use of Simandl, I'm sure there is room for a new double bass tutor book that is clear and concise - perhaps I'll write one when I retire!

Tally Ho
The Major
(Major F Minor)[/quote]

Major....................

My point about Simandl starting "the most primitive and elementary aspects of playing and reading music" was in response to Wulf's comment that "I think it would seem unnecessarily mystifying if I'd begun with no idea what music was about". My point being that it does educate from day 1 assuming that the reader IS beginning with no idea.

Which is why the books are great - simple and progressive.

I've been playing for 40 years and have not come across anything better.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='subaudio' post='511985' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:47 AM']Hello there

Thanks for the comment, in the photo I am perching on a window ledge which is bringing my elbow down and giving me a strange wrist angle, well spotted ! I must admit I am very open to advise on technique so your observations are welcome.

I would love to work with a good teacher, unfortunately I cant find one at the moment but am looking.

I agree that the chromatic approach to the exercises is more geared towards those with a more developed knowledge, I have been playing electric bass guitar for some time and have a good practical knowledge of theory in a non Jazz environment, my issues are firstly, physical technique on the double bass, which is my most immediate priority and then learning to play Jazz.

I spent a good two hours working on the twelve exercises in Ray Browns book last night and really feel I have learned from them and look forward to progressing through the book, I am currently ordering every book I can find on double bass, I have just orderd "Improvisers bass method" at Endorka's recommendation and I will certainly be ordering Simandl in the very near future

Marti[/quote]
Hi again Marti

I see from your profile that you are London based. You therefore have plenty of good pro bass players to choose from as your teacher. If you can afford it, go for the most high profile players you can find. A good teacher is worth every penny.
My main college-days teacher was actually rather poor (despite being a principal bass in a major orch) - he was drunk most of the time and I feel I effectively taught myself. I'll gladly suggest some names for you if you like.
Another bit of advice (which I'm sure I'll get slated for!) - learn to play sitting down on a high stool. If you look at all the great virtuoso jazz players - John Patitucci / Eddie Gomez / Miroslav Vitous / Neils Henning Osted Pederson etc etc they all play seated. And there is a very good reason - it frees up your body to concentrate on playing and not on holding the thing up. And also its better on you knees. Downside is you have to carry a stool around along with all the other gear.

One more point:
There are 2 Simandl books - make sure you start with Book 1. Book 2 is mostly thumb position stuff.

Tally Ho
The Major

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='512035' date='Jun 12 2009, 12:35 PM']Major....................

My point about Simandl starting "the most primitive and elementary aspects of playing and reading music" was in response to Wulf's comment that "I think it would seem unnecessarily mystifying if I'd begun with no idea what music was about". My point being that it does educate from day 1 assuming that the reader IS beginning with no idea.

Which is why the books are great - simple and progressive.

I've been playing for 40 years and have not come across anything better.[/quote]
So sorry - I think I replied to the wrong post ! My eyesight's not what it used to be don't you know.

But glad you are thinking the same as me.

Tally Ho
The Major

[Guest subaudio]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='512041' date='Jun 12 2009, 12:42 PM']Hi again Marti

I see from your profile that you are London based. You therefore have plenty of good pro bass players to choose from as your teacher. If you can afford it, go for the most high profile players you can find. A good teacher is worth every penny.
My main college-days teacher was actually rather poor (despite being a principal bass in a major orch) - he was drunk most of the time and I feel I effectively taught myself. I'll gladly suggest some names for you if you like.
Another bit of advice (which I'm sure I'll get slated for!) - learn to play sitting down on a high stool. If you look at all the great virtuoso jazz players - John Patitucci / Eddie Gomez / Miroslav Vitous / Neils Henning Osted Pederson etc etc they all play seated. And there is a very good reason - it frees up your body to concentrate on playing and not on holding the thing up. And also its better on you knees. Downside is you have to carry a stool around along with all the other gear.

One more point:
There are 2 Simandl books - make sure you start with Book 1. Book 2 is mostly thumb position stuff.

Tally Ho
The Major[/quote]

Hi

If you could sudgest a good available teacher I would be very gratefull, thank you.

I dont think I could get on the bus with my bass, gig bag, mini combo and a stool, but I will certainly get one for home practice, does it need to be a bass stool or will any hight stool do ?

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='subaudio' post='512080' date='Jun 12 2009, 01:14 PM']Hi

If you could sudgest a good available teacher I would be very gratefull, thank you.

I dont think I could get on the bus with my bass, gig bag, mini combo and a stool, but I will certainly get one for home practice, does it need to be a bass stool or will any hight stool do ?[/quote]
Firstly re the stool: Ideally you should be able to sit with both feet firmly on the floor. This is the best position for your body ie your spine is fairly straight. However a lot of players like to put their left foot on a rung (if there is one) which can be a very comfortable way of playing although it does put some stress on your left "lumber" region. Personally I play with both feet on the floor for most of the time and just occasionally cock the leg up for a change of position.
There are several companies worldwide who make bass stools and some of them are really quite sophisticated with lots of possible adjustments. However they tend to be very expensive and heavy. The stool i use at home and for jazz gigs is very light and portable, possibly a little high (but not adjustable).

Re teachers: I'm not sure whether I would be allowed to give out phone numbers of well known players on this site. Can someone advise ? In the meantime you could try to contact:
Chris Lawrence - one of our top players - well known in jazz circles but also does orchestral work - mainly film sessions.
Paul Kimber - ex LPO now on trial for Principal at Covent Garden (Opera House) - also plays jazz on bass guitar. Superb player.
John Bakewell - just retired from Covent Garden
Simon Benson
Dominic Black

Or if you want to go straight for the jazzers, try:
Andy Cleyndert
Jeremy Brown
Dave Chamberlain
Malcolm Creese
Gary Crosby
Paul morgan
Arni Somagyi
Simon thorpe

(This is just a small selection of names - there are many others.)

As all these guys are busy players they may be unable to fit you in - however they should be able to suggest other possible teachers. I can get phone numbers easily enough (they are all in the MU book !). Just not sure how legal that would be.

The Major

[endorka]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='512699' date='Jun 13 2009, 11:31 AM']Firstly re the stool: Ideally you should be able to sit with both feet firmly on the floor. This is the best position for your body ie your spine is fairly straight. However a lot of players like to put their left foot on a rung (if there is one) which can be a very comfortable way of playing although it does put some stress on your left "lumber" region. Personally I play with both feet on the floor for most of the time and just occasionally cock the leg up for a change of position.[/quote]

I agree 100%, I also play the instrument this way, as per my avatar. The stool I use is this one;

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/km_14052_stehhilfe.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/km_14052_stehhilfe.htm[/url]

For travelling on the underground etc. it fits into (and onto!) this rucksack;

[url="http://www.highlander1.com/Rucksacks/Day_sacks/SUMMIT35.html"]http://www.highlander1.com/Rucksacks/Day_sacks/SUMMIT35.html[/url]

Jennifer

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='endorka' post='513165' date='Jun 14 2009, 10:08 AM']I agree 100%, I also play the instrument this way, as per my avatar. The stool I use is this one;

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/km_14052_stehhilfe.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/km_14052_stehhilfe.htm[/url]

For travelling on the underground etc. it fits into (and onto!) this rucksack;

[url="http://www.highlander1.com/Rucksacks/Day_sacks/SUMMIT35.html"]http://www.highlander1.com/Rucksacks/Day_sacks/SUMMIT35.html[/url]

Jennifer[/quote]
H Jennifer

I must say that stool you use looks very comfortable. Is it fairly light to carry ? And does it feel sturdy ?

The Major

[endorka]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='513886' date='Jun 15 2009, 09:55 AM']I must say that stool you use looks very comfortable. Is it fairly light to carry ? And does it feel sturdy ?[/quote]

Yes to both!

Jennifer

[Guest subaudio]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='512699' date='Jun 13 2009, 11:31 AM']Firstly re the stool: Ideally you should be able to sit with both feet firmly on the floor. This is the best position for your body ie your spine is fairly straight. However a lot of players like to put their left foot on a rung (if there is one) which can be a very comfortable way of playing although it does put some stress on your left "lumber" region. Personally I play with both feet on the floor for most of the time and just occasionally cock the leg up for a change of position.
There are several companies worldwide who make bass stools and some of them are really quite sophisticated with lots of possible adjustments. However they tend to be very expensive and heavy. The stool i use at home and for jazz gigs is very light and portable, possibly a little high (but not adjustable).

Re teachers: I'm not sure whether I would be allowed to give out phone numbers of well known players on this site. Can someone advise ? In the meantime you could try to contact:
Chris Lawrence - one of our top players - well known in jazz circles but also does orchestral work - mainly film sessions.
Paul Kimber - ex LPO now on trial for Principal at Covent Garden (Opera House) - also plays jazz on bass guitar. Superb player.
John Bakewell - just retired from Covent Garden
Simon Benson
Dominic Black

Or if you want to go straight for the jazzers, try:
Andy Cleyndert
Jeremy Brown
Dave Chamberlain
Malcolm Creese
Gary Crosby
Paul morgan
Arni Somagyi
Simon thorpe

(This is just a small selection of names - there are many others.)

As all these guys are busy players they may be unable to fit you in - however they should be able to suggest other possible teachers. I can get phone numbers easily enough (they are all in the MU book !). Just not sure how legal that would be.

The Major[/quote]


Hi Major

Many thanks for this and the list, I shall begin tracking them down and trying out stools