Bay Splayer Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 at a recent rehearsal i played the same songs on the same bass through two different combo amps set 1: Ashdown MAG C115-300..... [u][b]300 watts [/b][/u](RMS) through 15" speaker set 2: Hartke A100..... [u][b]100 watts [/b][/u](RMS) through 15" speaker the Hartke absolutely blew the Ashdown away, despite having only a third of the wattage! howcome? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 This could be fun. Subscribed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='Bay Splayer' post='513189' date='Jun 14 2009, 10:53 AM']at a recent rehearsal i played the same songs on the same bass through two different combo amps set 1: Ashdown MAG C115-300..... [u][b]300 watts [/b][/u](RMS) through 15" speaker set 2: Hartke A100..... [u][b]100 watts [/b][/u](RMS) through 15" speaker the Hartke absolutely blew the Ashdown away, despite having only a third of the wattage! howcome? [/quote] At the risk of sounding anal, can you specify what you mean by 'blew away'? Are we talking volume? Tone? Projection? Approval of other band members? Could be any of quite a few things. You may know already that the amp/speaker interface is an incredibly complex relationship - not to mention the differences in the individual units. You haven't said anything about settings on the amps. I suspect this will either run and run - or die a quick death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Splayer Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 same type of settings >>>>>>>>>>>> knobs @12 o`clock = flat .....10 o `clock = cut ..... 2 o`clock = boost...etc etc bass: 2 o clock middle: 12 o clock treble: 4 o clock neither with compression hartke vol was about 4 (10 o clock) ashdown was about 3 o clock , both input and output dial hartke cut through the mix a lot more i`m just a bit puzzled by it all surely an aluminium speaker cant make that much difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkThrust Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Bay Splayer' post='513218' date='Jun 14 2009, 11:46 AM']surely an aluminium speaker cant make that much difference[/quote] Probably not but the internal EQ of the amp will. If the MAG is voiced anything like my ABM then it will have quite a bottom heavy sound and won't cut through as well as the Hartke. If "cutting through the mix" is the bag you're into then Ashdown probably isn't for you. FWIW I've done a similar comparison with a MAG C115 250 and a Hartke combo (140w, 1x12 I think) and if Basschat had existed back then I probably would have posted a thread to say I'd drawn the polar opposite conclusion to you. It's all about what sound works for you. Edited June 14, 2009 by AndyMartin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Also I [b]SUSPECT[/b] that as the 300W is specified into 4ohms that the combo probably uses an 8ohm speaker. So you may only using 2/3 of the power or less. Whereas the 100w is specified into 8ohms and the Hartke uses an 8ohm speaker. There is very little on the web or in the manuals though. The different speakers will also have different sensitivity. Never go by Wattage alone, look for SPL figures in dB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylon Pilson Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Comparing bass amps by wattage is like comparing cars by top speed, or computers by GHz, or cameras by megapixels. It's not a universal measure of goodness - it's just one factor of many. S.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Splayer Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='TimR' post='513247' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:23 PM']Also I [b]SUSPECT[/b] that as the 300W is specified into 4ohms that the combo probably uses an 8ohm speaker. So you may only using 2/3 of the power or less. Whereas the 100w is specified into 8ohms and the Hartke uses an 8ohm speaker. There is very little on the web or in the manuals though. The different speakers will also have different sensitivity. Never go by Wattage alone, look for SPL figures in dB.[/quote] yeah, i did mention this to our drummer, but once i mentioned "impedance" he looked lost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='513249' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:25 PM']Comparing bass amps by wattage is like comparing cars by top speed, or computers by GHz, or cameras by megapixels. It's not a universal measure of goodness - it's just one factor of many. S.P.[/quote] I agree - voicing, for example, is just as important. The gear being used by the rest of the band is also likely to be a factor - in a recording environment amps are chosen and balanced so that they occupy as little as possible of each other's acoustic 'space'. It could be that the Hartge's voicing just sits better in the band mix. Edited June 14, 2009 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Once you get over about 100 Watts, power becomes pretty well irrelevant. Most bass/PA cabs get the majority of their volume under 100W. To go twice as loud you'd need to put 1000 Watts through the cab, which would most likely cook it anyway. A reasonably capable gigging amp, when played at quietish 'living room' volume (ie so you can talk over it without raising your voice) which is around 80dB, is putting as much power into the LED on the front panel as it is into the speaker! A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='513191' date='Jun 14 2009, 11:02 AM']This could be fun. Subscribed.[/quote] I know, I'm also wondering who is going to snap first and write a technical and consise post out of anger that's entirely correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzaboy Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 To get the most watts from the ashdown I think that you have to connect another cab to it. It`s all relative anyway, I p[lay with a mag300 and set the output around halfway and those mincey guitar players and singers still complain it`s too loud. Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Splayer Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 just thought i`d mention that this isn`t meant to be a [b]"THIS AMP IS BETTER THAN THAT AMP" [/b]thread just wondered if any [i]tech-heads [/i]could explain in [i]plain english[/i] i know about matching impedance to get top-wack out of your amp, was just shocked about the difference betwwen the two amps. after all, you would expect a 300 watt amp to be louder than a 100 watt amp, not three times louder but definitely louder, IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkThrust Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='Bay Splayer' post='513314' date='Jun 14 2009, 02:12 PM']just wondered if any [i]tech-heads [/i]could explain in [i]plain english[/i] after all, you would expect a 300 watt amp to be louder than a 100 watt amp, not three times louder but definitely louder, IMO [/quote] The English above looks pretty plain to me. As has been stated it's not 300watts but probably more like 180 without an extension speaker. That is not enough to make an audible difference in volume if all else is equal. If the Ashdown is voiced with a bass heavy sound it won't sound as loud as an amp that has a mid prominent voicing. If your desired result is to cut through the mix then the Hartke will probably do a better job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 It'll also depend where you're standing. Different amps will have a different 'throw' (I don't the technical explanation for this!) so one might sound louder when you're standing next to it & another will be louder the other side of the room. The bigger the room the greater the effect might be! I remember when I guitarist I worked with bought an original Fender Twin 100w valve amp and was hacked off that it sounded considerable quieter than his previous crappy Peavey 50w tranny amp. First gig we played he whacked the volume right up on the Twin to hear himself on stage & and nearly took the heads off the audience standing about 20 feet away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='AndyMartin' post='513233' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:08 PM']If "cutting through the mix" is the bag you're into then Ashdown probably isn't for you.[/quote] So its good then for... I dont know what i am playing, having a fumble, And hope know one can hear me... sound? Thanks, one to look out for then. Garry Edited June 14, 2009 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='leftybassman392' post='513275' date='Jun 14 2009, 01:10 PM']I agree - voicing, for example, is just as important. The gear being used by the rest of the band is also likely to be a factor - in a recording environment amps are chosen and balanced so that they occupy as little as possible of each other's acoustic 'space'. It could be that the Hartge's voicing just sits better in the band mix.[/quote] Something else I meant to mention - speaker efficiency. Speakers waste most of their energy as heat (otherwise we'd all be strutting our stuff with improbably loud 40 watt amps - and guitarists would be making their audiences' ears bleed with 15 watt monsters ). I seem to remember reading somewhere that aluminium cones are a bit more efficient. In an otherwise identical setup, ali coned units would therefore be louder (as in actually louder, not just seeming louder because of a different character). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkThrust Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='lowdown' post='513360' date='Jun 14 2009, 03:20 PM']So its good then for... I dont know what i am playing, having a fumble, And hope know one can hear me... sound? Thanks, one to look out for then. Garry[/quote] I assume the means your post is tongue-in-cheek. Leaving aside the Ashdown content in this thread my aim is always to sit in the mix and lock in with the drummer, and create the power and punch that fills up the bottom end of the band. To me, the phrase “cutting through the mix” implies a mid prominent sound that has no separation from the guitars and only satisfies the criteria of being able to hear yourself rather than making the band sound good. There is a vast area of middle ground between fumbling around because you can't hear youself and sounding like a baritone guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 And which input did you use on the Ashdown? And does it have the same sensitivity as the Hartke input? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Splayer Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='513425' date='Jun 14 2009, 05:02 PM']And which input did you use on the Ashdown? And does it have the same sensitivity as the Hartke input?[/quote] used high input on both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Splayer Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='AndyMartin' post='513406' date='Jun 14 2009, 04:43 PM']To me, the phrase “cutting through the mix” implies a mid prominent sound that has no separation from the guitars and only satisfies the criteria of being able to hear yourself rather than making the band sound good. There is a vast area of middle ground between fumbling around because you can't hear youself and sounding like a baritone guitar.[/quote] there is also the matter that some songs are built around the bass line imagine BERNADETTE by the four tops without prominent bass tone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 How close were you to the amp when you were playing? A lot of good amps won't sound good if you're stood right next to them, but will project a fantastic bass sound a couple of feet away, or more. Also the type of room you were in makes considerable difference, etc. etc. I myself have had the best monitoring results, i.e. how good my amp sounds up close, from environments that have minimal reverb and are inherently dead sounding, but I don't think that the audience get the best sound from that sort of environment, so really you need to be in a position where you will compromise how good the monitoring is on stage for you, and how good it will sound out front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkThrust Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='Bay Splayer' post='513478' date='Jun 14 2009, 06:25 PM']there is also the matter that some songs are built around the bass line imagine BERNADETTE by the four tops without prominent bass tone[/quote] I'm not quite sure what your point is here. All Motown music was mixed with the bass upfront in the mix. I wouldn't call a Precision with flats played through a Ampeg Portaflex a cut through bass sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protium Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 IME the Ashdown 15's are pretty quiet and need to be paired with a second cab. The freq response is only to 2kHz and the amp runs [b]180W[/b] into an 8ohm load. The MAG 300 head through Ashdown 10's would kill the Hartke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubs Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote]combo wars[/quote] My combo is ‘arder than your combo… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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