Happy Jack Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) I spent a fascinating couple of hours with Stephen Taylor (Tayste on Basschat) on Friday evening. Great player, who also has a superb knowledge of pedals and effects. He probably didn't intend it, but he left me thinking about pedals in a different way. After 48 hours of thinking, I've more or less convinced myself that most pedals are really there to make up for not having a keyboard player. If your band has a keyboard player who is at least halfway competent, all you need for most of the time is a bit of reverb. My band has a very good keyboard guy, a reasonably short set list - about three hours of material - and covers a wide range of sounds and styles. I've spent the weekend going through the whole set list and asking myself if my choice of FX has been driven by the song or by my pedal board. Astonishingly, depressingly, I'm left with one song which benefits from a tape-slap effect, and one which definitely needs a distorted overdrive for the last five seconds ... and that part could easily be covered by the keyboard player. Even the tape-slap one is a bit of a luxury since it would probably not be noticed even by bass players in the audience. In practice, I like what the DHA VT2 does to my tone enough to consider it a fixture in my rig, so I will continue to have overdrive at my feet. But ALL of my other pedals have now been put away, to re-surface only when I join/form a power trio. My rackmount rig contains a compressor (DBX166A) and an Aphex Xciter, both of which I see more as tone-shaping than effects, and I usually link through to the rackmount PA which has a Lexicon MPX500 so I'll get my reverb from there. I feel strangely liberated now. Instead of a mass of boxes at my feet, festooned with cables, and covered with knobs and buttons to distract me, I have a single stomp box and even [i]that [/i]I can live without if I have to. What do you think? Have I let the pendulum swing too far? There must be others here who play in a band with a competent keyboard player. Do you still use pedals? Edited June 14, 2009 by Happy Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlea Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I'm very aware of how I should sit in the band setting, precisely because we have a keyboard player. It's why I gravitate to the precision sound, and why I use effects sparingly, now having only a DHA VT2 at my feet (aside from a tuner pedal and a loop + tuner mute pedal). Even with just a guitarist, much of your mid and upper ranges is going to be masked, and these are the regions in which effects [i]predominantly[/i] operate. With keyboard as well, adding effects can clutter the mix. That said, you may find yourself sounding extremely 'bare' when the other instruments drop out. I would argue that this can be remedied with EQ alone, but then as it would need to be kicked in, kind of counts as an effect anyway. In any case, bass effects have a time and a place, but not for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_C Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I've had any number of effects in the past, including a £700 (second hand!) multi effect set up, now I only use an ART Comp/Pre and occasionally a Sweeping Demon wah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finbar Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I've only ever played in bands with one/two guitarists and a drummer. But its only in this band that I've started using effects. Me and the guitarist kind of encourage each other to make the silliest noises possible really, and its about knowing when to use your effects. If its a massive chorus with every instrument playing loud, then yeah, it might get a bit lost. But if your keyboard player drops out and its a much more sparse affair, then effect your signal to the max Think it also depends if you're doing originals or covers. You have a lot more space to shoehorn a particular effect in if you are writing the song yourself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='513545' date='Jun 14 2009, 08:06 PM']....There must be others here who play in a band with a competent keyboard player. Do you still use pedals?....[/quote] I know many bass players use pedals but why beats me! I have played in bands with and without keyboards for a long time and I've never owned a pedal in my life and no one has ever asked me to use one. I guess I'm just old fashioned, but I don't see a pedal adding anything to my playing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golchen Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 When I read the thread title I though that you meant what was the point in having a keyboard player!?!? I don't play live, but if I did I don't think I'd bother with FX at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 For the sort of stuff I do (blues, old R&B, rock and rockabilly), I just use a cheap compressor and stay out of everyone's way. Mind you, were I doing contemporary originals, I'd have a pedal board like the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) It's like asking if a band has a keyboard player, is there any point in having a bass player at all. Look at a band like The Doors and you'd have to say no - Ray Manzarek was quite capable of doing both jobs. Are drummers still eventually going to be replaced by drum machines? Is bass guitar obsolete? I feel like I'm back in the '80s. Have I missed the point of the thread or is it basically bollocks? To answer the question: I have keyboard players in both bands I do. In one I take a bass strung with flats and a tuner, in the other I take a big board of pedals. I seem to fit perfectly well in both. I've said this before, but: I think if you're doing covers, or your band is firmly rooted in some existing genre (especially rock music), then effects on bass probably aren't called for very often, if at all. But otherwise, why would you rule it out? Edited June 15, 2009 by thisnameistaken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='513799' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:57 AM']Have I missed the point of the thread or is it basically bollocks?[/quote] Dunno, mate. Are you a professional "blunt Yorkshireman" or just semi-pro? [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='513799' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:57 AM']I've said this before, but: I think if you're doing covers ... then effects on bass probably aren't called for very often, if at all. But otherwise, why would you rule it out?[/quote] Not ruling it out, just can't see the point in hauling around a load of pedals if they're [i][b]either [/b][/i]not going to get used much [i][b]or [/b][/i](worse) are going to be forcibly inserted into songs that don't need them simply to justify bringing them in the first place. I'm not quite back to basics yet, but I feel that I've moved back into the same postal district. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey1-8 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 It's horses for courses. With the covers band I play in I take my tuner, sans amp BDDI and sometimes a distortion/dirt box (but I can get away without it). For my originals band I have 6 or 7 pedals I use, we're a 3 peice so there's a lot more space to fill and effects can do that. I think bass effects get a bit lost in most covers bands anyway. Especially if you're playing in a small pub and there's 5 or 6 people playing. I saw a mowtown / stax band last night called T-Slammers and there was about 8 people on stage... The style of music doesn't call for any effects on bass and there's not a lot of room for them to be included anyway. They're a bloody good band as well. It's like Finbar said: It depends if you're doing originals or covers. You have a lot more space to shoehorn a particular effect in if you are writing the song yourself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I can't see any defined link between FX and keyboards; FX are there to help you get the tone you want from you instrument, how that tone fits with other instruments is a matter of arrangement/production not of line-up. I don't use FX at all (although at the moment I'm considering getting a compressor for moments when my agricultural slap rears its ugly head), they all seem to take the bass out of my bass tone. I just love having one cable and one control (volume), everything else is in the playing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I've recently come to the conclusion that this idea that each instrument needs to occupy a set frequency range(s) and not interfere with eachother is a load of balls. People think that when you're in a 3 peice that effects on bass are great, but as soon as you get another guitarist, or a keyboard player, then you suddenly can't hear the effects anymore? Of course you can! Even if all it sounds like you're doing to the audience is doubling the keyboard, notes and sounds, I don't think that matters, you're still contributing to the sound in a way that you couldn't without the effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanOwens Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Surely it depends on what the music demands and the taste of the player? Sometimes my music calls for an aggressive, driving sound, sometimes a wobbly rich sound. And with the electro/breaks/DnB band, sometimes something very strange. Sometimes, however, it demands a P bass with flats and nothing else. Are you (OP) assuming that all music needs the same sound in the bass register? Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EskimoBassist Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 This thread really interests me, I'm suprised there aren't more FX junkies jumping up to defend their prized collection! I'd just like to reference a few bands, in support of using effects of course. Firstly take MOGWAI. If you've heard of them, you'll know that they are a 6 piece wall of sound, three guitarists, a bassist, a drummer and a keyboard player. Now all three of the guitarists use a stupidly large number of pedals and, despite everything going on in the mix, especially with the keyboard player using a whole variety of plugins, there bassist still uses a few effects, and they work well. We're only talking a Delay, Overdrive, Synth and an Octaver (I think...please correct me if I'm wrong) but still his sound works really well in the band. Of course, they are a Progressive Alternative Rock band, so the louder and the bigger the better perhaps! If you want a listen, go check out "Glasgow Mega Snake", here's the link: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1b9ToqTjjs"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1b9ToqTjjs[/url] There isn't an official video for this song, so I just picked an art video with good audio, note the HQ option. Secondly, I'll take the band that I am in. I play Bass (obviously), we have a guitarist, who is as equally enthusiastic about pedals as I am, a drummer and to top it off: a Keyboard playing front man. OH THE SHAME. Now when he had this [i]fantastic[/i] idea to get a keyboard, I was pretty sceptical as to how good it would sound in a band context. Actually, now I think about it, I remember actively trying to suppress how much it featured in our songs! It's not every song that he uses it on, although if he had his way he would, as a very competent musician he has a habit of just joining in with the rest of the band in songs which he doesn't know or play. HOWEVER, having said that, it really doesnt effect (haha) my use of effects pedals in the band. If anything, I now use more. I even encroach onto the hallowed grounds of synth! So to be fair, having a keyboard in our band has opened up new possibilities and I wouldn't regard it in a bad way at all, I guess as a Bass player you've got to stand your ground where it matters but be prepared to let the keyboard sometimes take the dominant bass line. Fundamentally, we haven't changed our musical direction either, we are still predominantly an Alternative Rock band. Recently we have started covering well known dance songs at the end of our set, something that always goes down a treat. Without a keyboard this just simply would not work! Yes I provide the deep synthy bass lines ala Korg G5, Boss OC-3, EHX Bass Big Muff and Boss ODB-3, but often the main synth melody is played on the keyboard. I guess this the bass and keyboard working together in harmony. You might not like them, but look towards Pendulum. As a live Drum and Bass band, I can't really think of any better example to illustrate my point. Here, see Pendulum covering the Prodigy classic Voodoo People: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvP5Tp-CLtQ"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvP5Tp-CLtQ[/url] Oncemore, the High Quality option really shows the bass through. If you liked that, try Propane Nightmares or Showdown live from Brixton Academy. So my pedal collection is still expanding and the only thing limiting me is the size of my Diago Tourman and being at 20+ pedals already, I think I've got enough! Ultimately I agree with most of the other posters above, using effects in a band situation has a time and a place anyway, coupled with a synth keyboard line it may restrict the need for a dirty, overdriven bass line, but I don't think that it totally restricts your usage of effects, or indeed the size of your pedalboard! Being in a relatively small band I guess it's easier for me to be liberal in my effects choices. Too, I agree, that the genre of music that you are playing totally dictates what sounds you will be using, but really doesn't this discussion come down to the age old discussion of whether you need effects in the first place, not simply will a keyboard player make your pedal tapping habits redundant? But anyway, that took far too long to write and in retrospect it's bloody boring and I should really be focusing on my looming exam! Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamapirate Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I've been playing 3 years and each time I buy a new effect, and make a new song, I'm basically trying to emulate what a keyboard players does (This is in a 4 piece rock band - songer, guitarist, me and drummer). If we were to get a keyboard player, I think that he wouldn't be [laying much, as we already have all the frequencies and when we all play it sounds really full. I like having to have EITHER synth (me with effects) OR bass (me without effects). XD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='DanOwens' post='513928' date='Jun 15 2009, 10:38 AM']Surely it depends on what the music demands and the taste of the player? Sometimes my music calls for an aggressive, driving sound, sometimes a wobbly rich sound. And with the electro/breaks/DnB band, sometimes something very strange. Sometimes, however, it demands a P bass with flats and nothing else. Are you (OP) assuming that all music needs the same sound in the bass register? Dan[/quote] No - it's more that most of my effects (on close examination) turned out to be ways of sounding like something a keyboard could do better. The EHX Micro-Synth is a case in point. The 'Voice Of Doom' effects it can produce are better played on a proper synth ... IF you have one. The envelope follower effects are very similar to my Q-Tron and suffer from the same problem, robbing my low-end. But there are lots of other effects. What about an Octaver? Or a Chorus? Or (God help us) a Looper? All of these can be better handled by a keyboard player ... IF you have one. What my basses all excel at is [b][i]sounding like a bass[/i][/b]! I can produce a WAY better bass sound than any keyboard player (and yes, that includes The Doors ) and I can do it without using any effects at all. It's spooky. If I'm going to play a sound in the bass register, it has become more and more apparent to me that the best thing I can play is a bass note from a bass guitar and I'll leave the effects to others. Please note that I'm NOT having an anti-effect rant. Far from it. As soon as I find myself playing in a band without a keyboard player my pedal board will be resurrected in double-quick time. I just can't see the point in deliberately competing with a keyboard player - in any effects head-to-head he's gonna win hands-down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='514190' date='Jun 15 2009, 02:04 PM']I just can't see the point in deliberately competing with a keyboard player - in any effects head-to-head he's gonna win hands-down. [/quote] I don't see it as competition at all. It should be reinforcement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='513829' date='Jun 15 2009, 08:23 AM']Dunno, mate. Are you a professional "blunt Yorkshireman" or just semi-pro? [/quote] Uh oh, the early warning signs that I'm turning into my dad... [quote name='Happy Jack' post='513829' date='Jun 15 2009, 08:23 AM']Not ruling it out, just can't see the point in hauling around a load of pedals if they're [i][b]either [/b][/i]not going to get used much [i][b]or [/b][/i](worse) are going to be forcibly inserted into songs that don't need them simply to justify bringing them in the first place.[/quote] That's a fair position to take. For me it's a bit different. The band where I use effects has pretty typical instrumentation (drums, bass, keys, guitar, vox) but often the songs don't call for that. Our singer and our MC often work on tunes together, neither of them listen to much music that has bass guitar in it, so when they're coming up with demos for the band to work on they usually don't have anything that sounds like a bass guitar in there. The first time I went along to play with them, the first song just didn't sound right until I switched on a few effects. I thought it wasn't going to go down well but the singer immediately turned around and yelled "Play more like that!". I also had to use my OC-2 on another song in order to actually reach all the notes in the bass part. I don't play lead synth parts or anything - I'm still usually playing as a bass player - but quite often what they want isn't a bass guitar, so I have to give them something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 I know what you mean - my last band was a blues band that agreed (under duress) to pick up a cancellation by a functions band, so we had to learn some new stuff really quickly. At my first attempt to play the synth intro to [i]Mercy [/i]by Duffy I stomped on the Q-Tron to get a really squelchy Bootsy-type sound ... and everyone stared in amazement. The rhythm guitarist who was also the MD said "I didn't know you could do [b]that [/b][i][/i]- just keep doing it." Of course, we didn't have a keyboard player ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='514282' date='Jun 15 2009, 03:20 PM']I know what you mean - my last band was a blues band that agreed (under duress) to pick up a cancellation by a functions band, so we had to learn some new stuff really quickly. At my first attempt to play the synth intro to [i]Mercy [/i]by Duffy I stomped on the Q-Tron to get a really squelchy Bootsy-type sound ... and everyone stared in amazement. The rhythm guitarist who was also the MD said "I didn't know you could do [b]that [/b][i][/i]- just keep doing it." Of course, we didn't have a keyboard player ... [/quote] olol bootsy would have sounded miles better as a keyboard player?!?!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 One nation under a Korg ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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