33" scale 6 string? pros/cons?

[Skywalker83]

Getting my bass build started in the Autumn and just finalising the design and specs to give my luthier. Its going to be a string single cut. I was thinking about a 33" scale for my 6 string. Is this do-able? whats the pros and cons? What's the availability of strings like for a 6 string of this scale? Are there any makers of 33" 6 stringers. i once heard that Fodera commonly make 33" 6 stringers.

Any input would be appreciated.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Skywalker83

[4000]

[quote name='Skywalker83' post='514690' date='Jun 15 2009, 08:22 PM']Getting my bass build started in the Autumn and just finalising the design and specs to give my luthier. Its going to be a string single cut. I was thinking about a 33" scale for my 6 string. Is this do-able? whats the pros and cons? What's the availability of strings like for a 6 string of this scale? Are there any makers of 33" 6 stringers. i once heard that Fodera commonly make 33" 6 stringers.

Any input would be appreciated.[/quote]

Sei have made one; it looks like my s/cut without the melt top. Luckily I didn't get to play it before it was bought s/h because if I had [i]I[/i] may have bought it.

[skelf]

Just finished a 33" five string tuned E to C worked pretty well and have another on the books. I have a six spec'd up for some time in the future when the finances are sorted out.
Alan

Edited June 15, 2009 by skelf

[peted]

Eude has a Shuker singlecut 6 with a 33" scale which he seems to have nothing but praise for. I'm sure he'll be along soon, but you could try PM'ing him in the meantime...

[biro]

if the bass is well-built, you shouldn't get any problems. as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't choose a 33" scale lenght, but to me it's just a matter of taste. I've go very big hands. Plus, I like my strings to be a bit tighter, and, above all, I like that "bigger" voice that usually comes out of longer scales. not only allows for a more tight - and thus better sounding low b, but it also makes the higher strings of your axe sound more like a bass - especially the high C, which frequently happens to have a difficult-to-melt-with-the-other-strings sound, especially if you use light gauge strings.

nevertheless, I've seen tony grey performing in Milan with Hiromi Uehara, and he was playing with his 33" fodera sixer. killer playing, and also killer sound, even on the lower register.

[eude]

Hey all,
sorry for the late response, was at a wedding yesterday and am now at work, with a hangover - boo

I've got 2 33" scale basses, one 6 string and one 4 string and I'm over the moon with them!
If you've got smallish hands, or just fancy something that's a tiny bit easier to get around on I thoroughly recommend the 33" scale.

I haven't really noticed any considerable difference in tone or tension of the low B on my 6 string, it's just right.
There's a wee sample on the Shuker site where I use the low B >> [url="http://www.shukerguitars.co.uk/03SlapandFingerFunk.mp3"]http://www.shukerguitars.co.uk/03SlapandFingerFunk.mp3[/url]
I've done loads of recording and live performances with the bass and it's the perfect scale for me, I'd never go back now.

[b]biro[/b] is right, the bass has to be well built and two very key parts to the construction are to use very stiff woods and to make sure there is a good and consistent break angle over the nut.
I also think using a brass nut and a heavy bridge also helps things, along with a bit of luthier Voodoo.
I believe that a set neck, or even a neck through design will make for a stiffer bass and therefore an even stiffer B string, however mine is a bolt-on and it's fine.

One other nice surprise is that the higher strings sound a little fuller and sweeter than on a regular scale bass.

As far as cons are concerned, I can't really think of any to be honest.
I imagine some strings might not be a great fit, but I've not any problems so far and I've used DR, SIT, Rotosound and D'Addario strings.
That's about it!

If you're in the Edinburgh area mate, you're more than welcome to have a go of my 33" Shukers.

Which luthier are you talking t about yer bass plans?
Feel free to PM me by the way if you have any other questions.

Cheers,
Eude

[eude]

[quote name='skelf' post='514817' date='Jun 15 2009, 10:12 PM']Just finished a 33" five string tuned E to C worked pretty well and have another on the books. I have a six spec'd up for some time in the future when the finances are sorted out.
Alan[/quote]

Ah, is the Skelf finished now then?
I bet it's a peach

Eude

[Mikey R]

Hey,

When I strung my fanned 5 up, I found that the longer scale length made a great tight B and the standard scale made a sweet and playable G. The scale length is 35 1/2" on the B and 34" on the G.

If your luthier is able to do fanned frets, then you could ask for a 35" B and 33" G - that gets the best of both worlds, and wouldnt lead to any extreme fret angles like on a Novax. The cost would be more though, as fanned frets add a few complexities to the design.

More than scale length, I found that action made the greatest effect on playablilty - I really struggle to play a 34" instrument if the action is high, but have no problems with a 35 1/2" scale instrument with good low action. (Need to fix that buzing though! ).

[Skywalker83]

Thanks for the replies!

The luthier i'm having my bass built by is a finnish luthier named Marko Ursin, i've seen a couple of basses that a friend of mine has had built and they're pretty nice basses.

The current spec of the bass is:

Fodera Imperial elite shaped sigle cut 6 string thru neck
33" scale
Ash or Alder body with a crotch or Figured Walnut top
Wenge Neck
Birdseye maple fingerboard with abalone block inlays
18mm spaced Gotoh bridge
Gotoh tuners
flush mount strap locks
birdseye maple pickup covers
Walnut Ramp


I'm having a bit of trouble trying to decide on pickups and preamp for the bass, i'd really like a set or Bartolini G6's but i'm not sure if they will work with the 18mm string spacing. Does anybody know? or recommend other pickups and a pre?


I think the 33" would be good for me because all the basses i've had have been 35" and i've sometimes found them a little uncomfortable to play for long periods. I'm 5 ft 6 and my arms are quite short.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Skywalker83

[eude]

[quote name='Skywalker83' post='515369' date='Jun 16 2009, 03:21 PM']Thanks for the replies!

The luthier i'm having my bass built by is a finnish luthier named Marko Ursin, i've seen a couple of basses that a friend of mine has had built and they're pretty nice basses.

The current spec of the bass is:

Fodera Imperial elite shaped sigle cut 6 string thru neck
33" scale
Ash or Alder body with a crotch or Figured Walnut top
Wenge Neck
Birdseye maple fingerboard with abalone block inlays
18mm spaced Gotoh bridge
Gotoh tuners
fluch mount strap locks
birdseye maple pickup covers
Walnut Ramp


I'm having a bit of trouble trying to decide on pickups and preamp for the bass, i'd really like a set or Bartolini G6's but i'm not sure if they will work with the 18mm string spacing. Does anybody know? or recommend other pickups and a pre?


I think the the 33" would be good for me because all the basses i've had have been 35" and i've sometimes found them a little uncomfortable to play for long periods. I'm 5 ft 6 and my arms are quite short.[/quote]

Hey man,
that sounds like a pretty sweet spec
I'm 5 ft 6 too and the 33" is a perfect fit, I reckon you'll love it, especially if you've been playing 35" basses!

Preamp-wise, I don't think I could look past the ACG Preamp these days, it's absolutely awesome.
If you like to tweak a lot, or even if you just use it to tune your sound to a room it's perfect, so so flexible!
Pickups? I'm a big fan of EMG pickups, particularly the DC ones, really growly and aggressive sounding, but it depends what you want kind of sound or sounds you want from your bass.
I think the EMGs do colour the sound of your bass a fair bit, so they're not for everyone...

Cheers,
Eude

[Mikey R]

[quote name='Skywalker83' post='515369' date='Jun 16 2009, 03:21 PM']The current spec of the bass is:

Fodera Imperial elite shaped sigle cut 6 string thru neck
33" scale
Ash or Alder body with a crotch or Figured Walnut top
Wenge Neck
Birdseye maple fingerboard with abalone block inlays
18mm spaced Gotoh bridge
Gotoh tuners
flush mount strap locks
birdseye maple pickup covers
Walnut Ramp[/quote]

Sounds like a fine choice of woods! I like walnut over ash, but thats just me. Did you find a source for your birdseye maple? I love the idea of matching fingerboard and pickup covers!

Is 18mm bridge spacing on a 6 string going to be rather wide? 17mm or 17.5mm could be options too.

[Skywalker83]

Well the luthier has said that the only problem with the spec at the moment is the birseye maple, because he's not sure if he can get a big enough piece to use for a fingerboard.

This was something else i wanted to ask, does anyoe know of any sources for bidseye in Europe?

Yeah i guess 17mm might be better, i think it also means that i can use the bartolini G6 soapbars (have a look here see what you think) [url="http://www.bartolini.net/information/bass/6st_bass_pu_s.htm"]Bartolini pickups[/url]


[quote]Sounds like a fine choice of woods! I like walnut over ash, but thats just me.[/quote]

Its taken me quite a while to decide on the body woods, i went through a whole array of really fancy woods before settling for two very simple woods, which look great together! and will give a nice sort of MTD tone.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Skywalker83

[Mikey R]

[quote name='Skywalker83' post='515563' date='Jun 16 2009, 06:17 PM']Its taken me quite a while to decide on the body woods, i went through a whole array of really fancy woods before settling for two very simple woods, which look great together! and will give a nice sort of MTD tone.[/quote]

Walnut doesnt need to be simple!

[urb]

For what it's worth this is a 33" scale Sei 6 and having played it I can assure you it felt and played beautifully - and with less stress on your arm due to the slightly shorter neck it makes getting around all 6 strings a lot easier - even I loved it and I really don't get on with 6 strings usually:



This is one of the nicest basses Martin has made - it has a Mike Pope pre in it with Nordy pups - the sound is massive, with a lovely warm fingerstyle tone...

Mike

[henry norton]

If you like a bit more tension on your B string you could always ask for it to be strung through the body. The extra inch or so of tensioned string will firm it up a bit if you're worried it would be too floppy(!).

[6stringbassist]

I played a 33" five string Wood 'n' tronics bass yesterday, I didn't realise it was 33" until I got home and saw it on the Bassdirect website.
A five string is the same as a six string really, (if you see what I mean) it's the low B that's important I guess.

[4000]

[quote name='urb' post='516149' date='Jun 17 2009, 09:45 AM']For what it's worth this is a 33" scale Sei 6 and having played it I can assure you it felt and played beautifully - and with less stress on your arm due to the slightly shorter neck it makes getting around all 6 strings a lot easier - even I loved it and I really don't get on with 6 strings usually:



This is one of the nicest basses Martin has made - it has a Mike Pope pre in it with Nordy pups - the sound is massive, with a lovely warm fingerstyle tone...

Mike[/quote]

Ah, that's the one I mentioned Mike. Sounds like a good job I didn't get to play it then!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='henry norton' post='519120' date='Jun 20 2009, 10:19 AM']If you like a bit more tension on your B string you could always ask for it to be strung through the body. The extra inch or so of tensioned string will firm it up a bit if you're worried it would be too floppy(!).[/quote]

Doesn't make any difference to the tension. The steeper break angle can stop the string moving over the witness points on the bridge saddles and give a slightly tighter feel though, as can a more tiltback headstock. The extra string length of thru-body stringing has no effect at all on the feel or tension.

A 33" will sound a little rounder and sweeter than a longer scale but it's not going to be a huge tonal difference compared to a 34". The strings will inevitably feel looser but some people prefer that. I prefer the higher tension and more aggressive sound on a 36" scale but I can certainly understand going the other way.

Alex

[Matte_black]

I've built both a 6er and a fiver with 32" scale and in both cases the LowB was perfect. If the bass is well built you're not going to regret the medium scale choice. But I'd make the headstock longer or the bridge able to take the strings thru the body as most LowB don't like to be bent in their thicker part and could break. Don't know if it's clear... you should have the B tuner far enough or the Low B going thru the body to allow you to wrap the string on the tuner in the best way.

[henry norton]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='519194' date='Jun 20 2009, 12:58 PM']Doesn't make any difference to the tension. The steeper break angle can stop the string moving over the witness points on the bridge saddles and give a slightly tighter feel though, as can a more tiltback headstock. The extra string length of thru-body stringing has no effect at all on the feel or tension.

A 33" will sound a little rounder and sweeter than a longer scale but it's not going to be a huge tonal difference compared to a 34". The strings will inevitably feel looser but some people prefer that. I prefer the higher tension and more aggressive sound on a 36" scale but I can certainly understand going the other way.

Alex[/quote]

I beg to differ Alex - any extra length of string between the anchor and the tuning peg will increase the tension. Otherwise you could put a capo on the 12th fret, tune it down an octave and experience no change in tension. I'm certainly not saying it'll increase 'sustain' (the holy grail of guitar design according to some), but if a string is longer, even if its being pushed onto a fret, nut or bridge, it will need to be tightened up more to reach the same pitch.

On a less argumentative note, Birdsong do a 31" scale 5 string, which apparently sounds rather good. www.birdsongguitars.com

[XB26354]

A string with a capo at the 12th fret is half as long, so will obviously have less tension with a string of the same gauge tuned to the same pitch as an open string.


Rick Turner, longtime repair guru and Alembic doyen has this to say about string tension.
"A string at fixed pitch, fixed scale length and fixed mass has fixed tension."
It is possible to change the feel of the string by having long lengths pass the witness point but don't confuse more tension with a stronger witness point giving the string a tighter sound.
If you have a string tuned to low B, and the scale is 34" the only way to increase the tension is to tune the string sharp. To my ears the only thing that through body stringing does is increase the sustain (because the end of the string is halfway through the body rather than at the bridge). I've owned or played Lakland and Fender basses with thru body stringing and did not notice any difference in string tension at all with the same brand of strings at the same gauge.

I've been playing 5's and 6's for 20 years and tried just about every type of bass and string out there - it is possible to get a great sounding B on a 33" scale, but a custom build is probably the most successful route as a bog standard factory built bass (if Fender made a 33" 5-string jazz for example) would be more hit and miss. My current favourites are Warwicks - the B is just so fat yet defined, and they are 34". If the OP does not mind a very slight decrease in string tension (unless he uses higher gauge strings) it should be OK.

[henry norton]

[quote name='XB26354' post='521145' date='Jun 22 2009, 09:53 PM']A string with a capo at the 12th fret is half as long, so will obviously have less tension with a string of the same gauge tuned to the same pitch as an open string.[/quote]

Exactly my point, so if you think of a bridge or a nut as another form of capo, the string's still in tension the other side of the part that's being played. Thing is, an inch or two extra string length behind the bridge is only going to add a few percent to the overall length and none to the free (vibrating) length, so won't affect the sound much, if at all but as Rick Turner said, it might change the feel of the string a bit.

[Skywalker83]

Thanks for all the input! I'm definitely going for a 33" scale! The luthier says its not a problem for him to build, and also he has found a supplier for the birdseye maple fretboard!

So here is my bass specs:

[b]Strings:[/b] 6
[b]Design: [/b]Single cut Neckthru (body shape like a Fodera Imerial elite)
Birdseye Maple pickup covers with Walnut Ramp

[b]Frets:[/b] 24
[b]Scale:[/b]33"

[b]Woods:[/b] Crotch or Figured Walnut Top and Ash or Alder Body
[b]Neck:[/b] Wenge Neck with walnut topped headstock
[b]Fretboard:[/b] Birdseye Maple with Wenge block inlays

[b]Hardware:[/b]

[b]Colour:[/b] Gold

[b]Tuners:[/b] Warwick or Gotoh Tuners
[b]Bridge:[/b] 17.5mm spacing , not sure which make yet.
[b]Nut: [/b]Brass Nut
[b]Strap Locks:[/b] Flush mount

[b]Electrics:[/b]

[b]Pickups:[/b] 2 x Bartolini G6 narrow Soapbars
[b]Preamp:[/b] John East U-retro Deluxe

[eude]

[quote name='Skywalker83' post='522631' date='Jun 24 2009, 02:42 PM']Thanks for all the input! I'm definitely going for a 33" scale! The luthier says its not a problem for him to build, and also he has found a supplier for the birdseye maple fretboard!

So here is my bass specs:

[b]Strings:[/b] 6
[b]Design: [/b]Single cut Neckthru (body shape like a Fodera Imerial elite)
Birdseye Maple pickup covers with Walnut Ramp

[b]Frets:[/b] 24
[b]Scale:[/b]33"

[b]Woods:[/b] Crotch or Figured Walnut Top and Ash or Alder Body
[b]Neck:[/b] Wenge Neck with walnut topped headstock
[b]Fretboard:[/b] Birdseye Maple with Wenge block inlays

[b]Hardware:[/b]

[b]Colour:[/b] Gold

[b]Tuners:[/b] Warwick or Gotoh Tuners
[b]Bridge:[/b] 17.5mm spacing , not sure which make yet.
[b]Nut: [/b]Brass Nut
[b]Strap Locks:[/b] Flush mount

[b]Electrics:[/b]

[b]Pickups:[/b] 2 x Bartolini G6 narrow Soapbars
[b]Preamp:[/b] John East U-retro Deluxe[/quote]

Nice spec dude.
Do you ave any pics of your luthier's previous work?

Eude

[Skywalker83]

Yeah , here is a couple of pics with sound clips as well of 2 basses that Marko built for a guy i know in Northern Finland.

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=547355&referrerid=128975"]5 string single cut[/url]

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=487862&referrerid=128975"]6 string single cut[/url]


theres a couple of changes(again ) to my spec after Marko had a look at it. im not getting the wenge block inlays, or the pick up covers. Also im going to go tfor a cheaper preamp than the John East (sorry John). i will probably upgrade the preamp later.

The quote he gave me for the bass is around 1600€

Edited June 25, 2009 by Skywalker83