james_guitar Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 After weeks of saving (and eating beans on toast), I have finally got my first double bass! It's second hand, but for £1,200 I've picked up a 3/4 size Stentor Elysia in perfect condition (affectionately named 'Raquel' by her previous owner - something to do with being quite curvy). She also comes with a Fishman BP-100 pickup installed, an outboard Fishman pre-amp, a bow, a stand, padded soft case, a peg winder and a double bass techniques DVD, so as far as I can tell it was a pretty good deal. I had a violinist friend of mine have a look at the bridge etc and check that everything was in perfect working order, so am confident that all is well in that respect. Being a full time guitar teacher/musician that plays electric bass in a few bands (I love my Fender Jazz Custom), I'm not so worried about the left hand technique as I have a pretty good ear for pitch and some good classical technique that seems to resemble what double bassists I've witnessed use; this side of it should mostly be a case of getting used to the varying finger distances between tones and semitones up and down the neck; I'm sure any of you who came to the double bass from the electric will appreciate this. Right hand technique however feels quite new and I fear I'm just going to have to put a lot of time in to get it to feel natural (assuming what I'm aiming for with the new hand position is correct). There's also the more rockabilly approach to pulling and slapping that I'm even more worried about. I've watched a couple of videos on YouTube to work out an approximation of this... lots of blisters to look forward to, I'm sure. Anyway, here's the deal... I've just learnt what seems like 100 or more songs on the electric bass for a skiffle/roots band that I'm standing in for called the Fallen Apples. They play a mix of skiffle/blues/gypsy jazz, country/americana, reggae, Irish jigs/reels and klezmer music (the band consists of mandolin, harmonica, piano/guitar/vocals, snare drum and double bass). The band typically play a two hour set, but like to rotate the majority of the songs in the set from gig to gig. This keeps things interesting for them, which I can understand, but makes it difficult for me to get in to any comfort zone with the material in the short term. I've got a lot of dates in the diary with these guys and I love the music they play so it's all good. I've already done one gig with them on electric bass, but I have my first gig with them on double bass next week, followed by another gig with them on the S.S. Great Brittain in Bristol in a couple of weeks (which I'm sure you'll agree is pretty random as far as gigs go). So firstly, I need to re-learn their set on double bass, which is bad enough on it's own. Secondly, I've just been given a dep gig with a Rockabilly band (called the Heebie Jeebies) for this Friday coming (so just under a week), which means that not only do I have an additional 2 hours of material to learn during the same time period, but also a completely different technical approach to go with it. Queue nervous breakdown... I know there are probably going to be no shortcuts to sounding confident on the double bass but any playing tips/technical advice would be massively helpful. I'm willing to put in every free second/minute/hour/day I have in between teaching and rehearsals this week, but just want to make sure I'm not picking up any really bad habits or taking the wrong approach with the instrument. As a player switching from an electric jazz to double bass, what sort of things should I be focussing on? Thanks in advance for any help... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Burrito Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Sounds like you'd be better off knuckling down as opposed to being on here! Ha! Joking aside, you sound like you'll be more than equipped to do the job at hand. I'm just in the process of getting my first double bass. From talking to friends who are further down the line with it then you or I, they seem to adapt quite quickly. I'm (slightly) more concerned about my left hand technique for any audience members who are perfect pitch but then I think I'm happy to learn by my mistakes. With your references to Americana / country / rockabilly it sounds like we're doing similar stuff. Best of luck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealting Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Congrats on picking up double bass! I started in October having played guitar and electric bass for the best part of 20 years, and playing and teaching professionally for the last 5. I will say that it is STILL worth having a few lessons from a good teacher, particularly with left hand technique. It really is a completely different animal to electric bass and guitar, and although you may well have your technique down, you could very well have it very wrong and you could end up injuring yourself very badly and jeopardising your guitar playing too. If I hadn't started taking lessons, and simply decided to knuckle down and work through the pain the way I did with guitar and electric bass when I was starting out, I would probably have had to give up playing stringed instruments due to injury... it really is no joke. At least take a few lessons, and if your teacher says your fine, then go ahead. But our hands are our livelihood, and this is one instrument that you don't want to take ANY risks on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodge Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='therealting' post='519987' date='Jun 21 2009, 03:14 PM']Congrats on picking up double bass! I started in October having played guitar and electric bass for the best part of 20 years, and playing and teaching professionally for the last 5. I will say that it is STILL worth having a few lessons from a good teacher, particularly with left hand technique. It really is a completely different animal to electric bass and guitar, and although you may well have your technique down, you could very well have it very wrong and you could end up injuring yourself very badly and jeopardising your guitar playing too. If I hadn't started taking lessons, and simply decided to knuckle down and work through the pain the way I did with guitar and electric bass when I was starting out, I would probably have had to give up playing stringed instruments due to injury... it really is no joke. At least take a few lessons, and if your teacher says your fine, then go ahead. But our hands are our livelihood, and this is one instrument that you don't want to take ANY risks on.[/quote] +1 to all that. I've just recently taken up the double bass and from my first lesson (with BCs own OutToPlayJazz) I got not just the peace of mind of knowing I wasn't doing anything that would cause me any grief months or even years down the line, but also discovered how much less of an issue intonation is if your left hand thumb is in the right place and all the other fingers are positioned correctly. I was amazed at how much I learned in just half an hour. In addition to this I'd add that the guitarist I bought my double bass from was giving up because he kept getting painful lumps on the tendons on the back of his left hand, so there's definately risks there if it's done wrong. It really is a beast of an instrument and for the sake of half an hour and a few quid getting a bit of professional advice is well worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealting Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I should add that I am definitely an advocate of teaching yourself to play an instrument - I taught myself to play guitar, bass, flute, clarinet (and then saxophone), ukulele (similar to guitar I know, but the altered tuning messes with your head), harp etc. I love working new instruments out... but the physical challenge of double bass was beyond me, and despite only planning to take a few starter lessons, I have now had weekly lessons for nine months and am still only playing at about grade 5 standard with a bow. Oh, and if you are planning to play a two hour set a couple of weeks after first starting on DB... I wish you good luck. When I first started, I lasted about ten minutes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardi100 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 As for right hand, I thought just using the same right hand fingering from EB would do. Not so. You need to get as much 'meat' of your finger as you can on to the strings to get a nice tone. I've now got a lovely callous on the side of my first finger, near the second knuckle. I never expected that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Hey James, congrats on taking the plunge, given the short timescale you have I should suggest that you be expedient in what you try to achieve in the short time you have. The two most important factors for one in your position are, in my view, as follows: 1.Ensure that (with correct fingering ie 124) that you are being efficient in your left hand, use the natural weight in your arm to gently pull your fingers (which should be slightly curled into a sort of hook) against the fingerboard. This should allow you to avoid squeezing which is desperately inefficient and leads to tiredness. 2. you need to practise moving, retaining contact with the string (for intonation purposes) and learning to adjust your finger spread to account for the tiny reducing stop length as you go up the neck. This should become entirely unconcious over time. At this stage I can't stress enough how important it is that you take a few technical lessons, what I've described really should be shown and is very hard to put into text without some physical guidance to back it up. Having a knowledgeable teacher dance around you looking from every angle to see how your muscle movement can be minimised is really beneficial and can in the long run save some painful undoing of poor habits. GET A TEACHER NOW!!! DO IT...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddy Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 As youve not much time to get sorted,,, top tip...... Temporary fret markers,,, black electritians tape with a dab of tippex on the top (your side) of the neck.. Cos the distance between fret spacing is so much different,,,,,,,no one will see and can easily be removed once ya feel you have mastered it.. but sure will help get you through your first gigs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegg Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 In the time scale you have I would also recommend temporary position markers to help with intonation. I try if at all possible on BG to avoid open strings partly for tone reasons but also to enable easy transposition. On DB, particularly when starting out I think it is a great help to include open strings to provide an intonation reference. It is also much easier for the audience to spot poor intonation on notes which are higher up the fingerboard Hope this helps Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jecklin Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I don't want to sound overly glum, and I'm all for putting oneself in testing situations, but I really really really would not play a 2 hour set having only just got a double bass. Heck even at my peak I wouldn't play a 2 hour set. It is just asking for trouble. Even if your technique happens to be spot on at this very early stage you simply don't have the right muscles yet. That means all your connective tissue will be taking the brunt of the effort. This is very bad. You'll be charged on adrenaline and wont have the sensitivity to feel when your arms are getting tired and you'll go through your damage threshold. Can't you do most of the performances on your electric and then whip out the double bass for a selected number of tunes? If you really have to do it, get the strings way down and turn the amp up. It wont sound as good, but it means you stand a better chance of sounding good in the long run Just lessen every possibility of injury. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='merchant' post='522580' date='Jun 24 2009, 01:47 PM']I don't want to sound overly glum, and I'm all for putting oneself in testing situations, but I really really really would not play a 2 hour set having only just got a double bass. Heck even at my peak I wouldn't play a 2 hour set.[/quote] I've been playing DB for about 6 months and I've played a couple of gigs. But what I've done is bring the electric bass along, and as soon as I feel any tiredness at all in my left hand, switch straight over the the electric. From everything that I've read, you should never try and 'play through' the pain. I'd imagine from the kind of music that you describe that there will be a lot of root-fifth type bass lines - what I find difficult about these kind of lines is the strain on my little finger having to repeatedly hold down the fifth. On BG, you you can use your third finger for this, but on DB your little finger will take the brunt so watch out for this. Anyway, hope this helps and enjoy the gigs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='tinyd' post='529457' date='Jul 1 2009, 11:51 AM']I've been playing DB for about 6 months and I've played a couple of gigs. But what I've done is bring the electric bass along, and as soon as I feel any tiredness at all in my left hand, switch straight over the the electric. From everything that I've read, you should never try and 'play through' the pain. I'd imagine from the kind of music that you describe that there will be a lot of root-fifth type bass lines - what I find difficult about these kind of lines is the strain on my little finger having to repeatedly hold down the fifth. On BG, you you can use your third finger for this, but on DB your little finger will take the brunt so watch out for this. Anyway, hope this helps and enjoy the gigs![/quote] Just go down to a lower fifth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='teej' post='529484' date='Jul 1 2009, 12:20 PM']Just go down to a lower fifth... [/quote] Haha - good point - it's funny, but playing further down the neck is definitely easier on the hands - I've been playing "El Cuarto De Tula" by the Buena Vista Social Club and the bass line is mainly up the neck, but I usually get knackered halfway through and end up playing it right down at the bottom. I noticed on the DVD that Cachaito himself does the same, although I'm sure he did it for solid musical reasons and not because he's a bit of a wuss like me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='james_guitar' post='519405' date='Jun 20 2009, 04:05 PM']I have my first gig with them on double bass next week, followed by another gig with them on the S.S. Great Brittain[/quote] Does the SS Great Britain use standard tuning? At least take a BG along with you in case you start feeling like your fingers are falling off. You might not need it but it'll be there if you're getting pain or heavily blistered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='tinyd' post='529457' date='Jul 1 2009, 11:51 AM']I'd imagine from the kind of music that you describe that there will be a lot of root-fifth type bass lines - what I find difficult about these kind of lines is the strain on my little finger having to repeatedly hold down the fifth. On BG, you you can use your third finger for this, but on DB your little finger will take the brunt so watch out for this.[/quote] In general, when using the pinky to stop a note on the double bass, you should also be holding the same string down with all the other fingers as well, to distribute the load. So, if you're using your pinky on G on the D string, you would also have the 1st finger stopping F, 2nd finger stopping F#, and 3rd finger somewhere between F# and G. Regardless of this, the 3rd and 4th fingers should operate as a single unit; doing so addresses the strain on the pinky that you mention. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='endorka' post='529711' date='Jul 1 2009, 04:33 PM']In general, when using the pinky to stop a note on the double bass, you should also be holding the same string down with all the other fingers as well, to distribute the load. So, if you're using your pinky on G on the D string, you would also have the 1st finger stopping F, 2nd finger stopping F#, and 3rd finger somewhere between F# and G. Regardless of this, the 3rd and 4th fingers should operate as a single unit; doing so addresses the strain on the pinky that you mention. Jennifer[/quote] That's good stuff - thanks Jennifer - sounds like I really should get my act together and take those lessons! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubrad Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='521639' date='Jun 23 2009, 12:55 PM']Hey James, congrats on taking the plunge, given the short timescale you have I should suggest that you be expedient in what you try to achieve in the short time you have. The two most important factors for one in your position are, in my view, as follows: 1.Ensure that (with correct fingering ie 124) that you are being efficient in your left hand, use the natural weight in your arm to gently pull your fingers (which should be slightly curled into a sort of hook) against the fingerboard. This should allow you to avoid squeezing which is desperately inefficient and leads to tiredness. 2. you need to practise moving, retaining contact with the string (for intonation purposes) and learning to adjust your finger spread to account for the tiny reducing stop length as you go up the neck. This should become entirely unconcious over time. At this stage I can't stress enough how important it is that you take a few technical lessons, what I've described really should be shown and is very hard to put into text without some physical guidance to back it up. Having a knowledgeable teacher dance around you looking from every angle to see how your muscle movement can be minimised is really beneficial and can in the long run save some painful undoing of poor habits. GET A TEACHER NOW!!! DO IT...![/quote] +1 to all Jake's comments! Especially the teacher.. a decent one can help you avoid various problems and even injuries. If you're interected in bowing, a classical teacher (they bow almost all the time ) is a great idea on top of lessons in your main style. Also to all the comments on 'backing up the 4th finger with the 3rd'.. pretty much essential. Back up EB sounds like a decent plan to start with.. I'm sure they'd prefer you to keep playing on EB rather than have to retire half way through the 2nd set. Off the 'puter and onto the DB.. you need to get fit quick! Oh, and WELCOME ABOARD!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulf Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Switching from DB to bass guitar can be tricky though. Suddenly the little instrument feels like a toy! If you are going to switch, don't wait until you can't take the DB anymore. The first full length gig I did with my electric upright, I had my six string bass along as well; it was the one tune in the second set where I decided to switch down that I dropped the most clams in! In retrospect, I probably would have done better to have done one set on each of the basses; swapping between them is a skill in itself. Wulf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_guitar Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 My internet's been down for the last week, so am now overwhelmed by the helpful responses here, having just logged in. I couldn't agree more about getting a teacher. I doubt there are any decent double bass teachers here in Weston, so will probably need to find one and commute to Bristol whenever time facilitates. I often play thumb behind the neck on guitar when playing anything more classical or any jazz/technical rock runs that require all 4 fingers (i.e. 3 note per string scales/positions), but also play a lot with my thumb around the side of the neck (particularly for bending/modern vibrato and 2-3 finger pentatonic/hybrid blues runs). I've mainly been using the thumb behind the neck approach on the DB so far. I'm using the tips of the fingers and when using the 4th finger I have other fingers pushed down behind it (with the other fingers positioned around whatever scale position or shape I'm in). I've heard that some double bassists use their 1st, 2nd & 4th fingers almost exclusively on the left hand. Are their any benefits to this? I've always either used 1st, 2nd and 4th or 1st 3rd and 4th based on whatever position of a scale I've been in on the neck. As 'tinyd' has correctly pointed out, a good portion of the set with the Apples is root/fifth type playing (with the odd third and seventh intervals thrown in, and a walking line or riff here and there), so I'm definately developing muscles in my left hand more than before. I'm very glad that a lot of my bass and guitar practice has been chromatic exercises/intervallic designs, geared towards strengthening the 4th finger. The right hand technique is the most unusual aspect of playing DB for me... I worked my way through the Double Bass DVD to get the general idea and am still getting used to more the side of the fingers to pluck the strings (with the thumb resting behind the neck groove) as opposed to EB technique. As for intonation - I was very tempted to make pencil marks on the side of the neck for key intervals, but have decided against this. For the first gigs I'm mostly working my parts within the first 5 semitones of each string, which is fine just as long as I can consistantly visualise where C is on the A string and divide the distances of the other intervals around that. Also, I couldn't agree more with 'stevegg' about using open strings as a pitch referance. I also tend to avoid them on EB and guitar, but on DB they're a life saver. I'm also loving open notes on the mandolin mandolin for jigs and reels etc, but that's not really one for this forum... I teach guitar full time so will need to find a good teacher that is willing to teach me outside of typical hours. I'll start looking for a good teacher, but if anyone knows of a good one in the North Somerset/Bristol area then great. Having been over a week now, so here's a summary of how the gigs went... The S.S. Great Brittain; (The Fallen Apples) We played 3 sets of material, which was longer than the 2 hours originally planned, but having been more familiar with the set/bass parts than when I first played with the band a couple of weeks ago on electric bass, I felt a lot more confident for this gig, despite the new instrument. The function room on the ship was made out of thick steel, with a wooden floor, so I had to EQ the amp to avoid feedback, but generally the room was very live. The DB has definately started me thinking about trying some other bass amps out and seeing what works best for me, but my Fender amp should do alright for now. Anyway, the band were happy, my hands felt pretty good at the end of the gig and punters were partying/dancing all gig. To top it all off, it was an unusually good payer - even for a wedding. The Rock & Rock/Rockabilly Gig; (The HeeBee GeeBees) I decided that it was probably best for my hands to not incorporate much slap technique, seeing as I'm still very new to this based some tuition stuff I had a quick look at on YouTube. I'd far rather spend the time learning/practicing the set (which seeing as Rock N Roll songs are typically 2 or 3 minutes long, ends up being about 40 tracks over 2 hours... i.e. 20 songs per each 1 hour set), than focus on this aspect of the gig. I'd rather wait until the technique feels confortable before inflicting this on any ones ear drums. So anyway, I went through the track list thoroughly and made solid notes for each track (which you have to for this stuff seeing as it's all fairly similar and yet the stops/changes are slightly different each time). I then practiced along to the tracks without the notes as much as possible and listened to the tracks during any additional free time in the week (i.e. lunch breaks etc). I also made sure that I knew the tracks by name and associated each track name with a key. In summary, I felt suffiently prepared for the gig, which would usually be alright, but... ...what a waste of time. The drummer was also being depped for this gig and despite receiving a cd and set list before I did, didn't really listen to any of the tracks prior to the gig. Stops were very rarely being put in the right places (or even for the right amount of time), he's play straight over a couple of tracks that should have been swung and vice versa and the endings on the majority of the set were shockingly bad. He wasn't the songs a hard enough feel either, so I felt like I was having to work ten times as hard with my own playing just to drive the band. Needless to say, it was a tought gig and I ended up with a number of blisters on my right hand that I know I wouldn't have got, had the drummer learnt his parts and driven the band. I felt particularly bad seeing as I I'd prepped my parts 200 percent and the singer/guitarist was playing great all night. But then I'm sure most of you have been in similar positions to this before (I know I have)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='james_guitar' post='533492' date='Jul 6 2009, 04:11 AM']. I'm using the tips of the fingers and when using the 4th finger I have other fingers pushed down behind it (with the other fingers positioned around whatever scale position or shape I'm in). I've heard that some double bassists use their 1st, 2nd & 4th fingers almost exclusively on the left hand. Are their any benefits to this? I've always either used 1st, 2nd and 4th or 1st 3rd and 4th based on whatever position of a scale I've been in on the neck.[/quote] Ah - I think we've got to the core of your technique problem here, James. All the others have mentioned the usual DB technique tips so I won't cover those points again. But you should NOT be using the tips of your 1st and 4th fingers on DB, but rather (what are usually called) the "pads". Effectively, your first and fourth fingers should be fairly straight (maybe just a slight curve on the 1st) and the 2nd finger will naturally be more bent as it is longer and needs to fit in. The gap between 1 and 2 should be the same as between 2 and 4, with the 3rd (unused) sort of allying itself to the 4th ie whenever the 4th is down so is the 3rd. And as Jennifer pointed out, its good practise to have all the fingers on the string when playing a note with the 4th. When you've been playing a while, you might want to do vibrato and that will require a little more freedom from the usual beginner position. Also, on guitar you are thinking in chord shapes. On DB its best to keep all the fingers on one string at a time. Don't be tempted to leave a finger behind on a note that you think you might need in a moment (well not at this stage anyway). The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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