spiltmilk_2000 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Hi people, so below are a couple of queries Im hoping someone can explain for me... [b]The neopolitan sixth[/b] - What is it? Ive heard the term a few times and looked it up in a particularly wordy text only to end up even more confused Can anyone explain in idiot proof terms please? [b]Common chord tones[/b] - Is there an easy way of working out / remembering which chords share the same notes? For instance a C6 chord and a Am7 chord have all the same notes (C, E, G, A and A, C, E, G respectively) and i guess it depends on context how you label the resulting chord. Surely there must be a quicker way of remembering / calculating these instances than the mental gymnastics I attempt to figure it out? Thanks for any tips / tricks or pearls that might help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 [quote name='spiltmilk_2000' post='521722' date='Jun 23 2009, 02:23 PM']Hi people, so below are a couple of queries Im hoping someone can explain for me... [b]The neopolitan sixth[/b] - What is it? Ive heard the term a few times and looked it up in a particularly wordy text only to end up even more confused Can anyone explain in idiot proof terms please?[/quote] No doubt Major Minor will correct me on this, but I'll give it a go. It's a major triad built on a note a semitone above the tonic that resolves to the dominant chord. So in C major, you're talking about Db going to G7, the Db chord being the 'Neapolitan sixth'. It has some commonalities with tritone substitution, in that it is usually (always?) associated with the dominant chord and introduces the b5 and b9 of the dominant chord (Db and Ab in a Db major triad). Don't worry too much about the 'sixth' bit. It's not a sixth chord in the sense that we'd normally use it. (prepares to be shot down) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='spiltmilk_2000' post='521722' date='Jun 23 2009, 02:23 PM'][b]Common chord tones[/b] - Is there an easy way of working out / remembering which chords share the same notes? For instance a C6 chord and a Am7 chord have all the same notes (C, E, G, A and A, C, E, G respectively) and i guess it depends on context how you label the resulting chord. Surely there must be a quicker way of remembering / calculating these instances than the mental gymnastics I attempt to figure it out?[/quote] Memorising is a good way to do it. C6 is the first inversion of Am7. When you put a standard chord into its first inversion, you're essentially placing the third at the bottom. This inverts the interval between the root and the third, turning it into a sixth. The inversion between a major interval is always a minor interval and vice versa. So a major 3rd always inverts to a minor 6th and a minor 3rd always inverts to a major 6th. In a m7 chord, the 3rd, 5th and 7th form a major triad built on the 3rd. In a maj7 chord, the 3rd, 5th and 7th form a minor triad built on the 3rd. In a dominant 7 chord, the 3rd, 5th and 7th form a diminished triad built on the 3rd. In a m7b5 chord, the 3rd, 5th and 7th form a minor triad built on the 3rd. See how that works? So (in the key of C), Cmaj7 will become Emb6 Dm7 will become F6 Em7 will become G6 Fmaj7 will become Amb6 G7 will become Bmb5b6 Am7 will become C6 Bm7b5 will become Dm6 (I think that's right) Edited June 23, 2009 by dlloyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) While you've mentioned the Neopolitan sixth, it might be worthwhile mentioning the augmented sixths (to see if I understand them correctly): Italian sixth French sixth German sixth They also usually come before the dominant chord. An Italian sixth also comes before the dominant chord, but is built from a root that's a semitone sharp of the dominant... so in C major, you're talking about Ab. You add a major third ( C ) and the augmented sixth (F#). You end up with a chord that's enharmonic with an Ab7 without the fifth, which is almost like a tritone subbed secondary dominant. The French sixth is similar, but adds another note, which is the #4... in this case D, giving you a chord that is enharmonic with Ab7b5. The German sixth is like an Italian 6th with an added fifth. In C major, that would essentially add the 5th (Eb) to the Ab7 chord. Edited June 23, 2009 by dlloyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 [quote name='dlloyd' post='521742' date='Jun 23 2009, 02:37 PM']No doubt Major Minor will correct me on this, but I'll give it a go. It's a major triad built on a note a semitone above the tonic that resolves to the dominant chord. So in C major, you're talking about Db going to G7, the Db chord being the 'Neapolitan sixth'. It has some commonalities with tritone substitution, in that it is usually (always?) associated with the dominant chord and introduces the b5 and b9 of the dominant chord (Db and Ab in a Db major triad). Don't worry too much about the 'sixth' bit. It's not a sixth chord in the sense that we'd normally use it. (prepares to be shot down)[/quote] Actually I'm the one who should be shot down ! I used the term Neapolitan 6th in a post the other day, thinking i knew what it was. My elderley father, a died in the wool classical man, had used the term during a recent conversation and I thought I knew what it was. How wrong could I be !? I looked it up on wikipedia just now and you are absolutely right. Except that it is usually to be found in its first inversion - F Db Ab (a Db major triad with the 3rd at the bottom) hence the "sixth" - as it is a sixth from F to Db. It is to be fair very much a "classical" device having been used by Beethoven in particular - not something for the jazzer to worry about too much ! The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiltmilk_2000 Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 Thanks so much, this makes it so much clearer! Why cant the text books be so succinct? On the inversions, once you make the connection of how the function of each chord tone changes its easy to figure out... no need for memorising even... and nobody even shot you down! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 [quote name='dlloyd' post='521764' date='Jun 23 2009, 03:00 PM']Memorising is a good way to do it. C6 is the first inversion of Am7. When you put a standard chord into its first inversion, you're essentially placing the third at the bottom. This inverts the interval between the root and the third, turning it into a sixth. The inversion between a major interval is always a minor interval and vice versa. So a major 3rd always inverts to a minor 6th and a minor 3rd always inverts to a major 6th. In a m7 chord, the 3rd, 5th and 7th form a major triad built on the 3rd. In a maj7 chord, the 3rd, 5th and 7th form a minor triad built on the 3rd. In a dominant 7 chord, the 3rd, 5th and 7th form a diminished triad built on the 3rd. In a m7b5 chord, the 3rd, 5th and 7th form a minor triad built on the 3rd. See how that works? So (in the key of C), Cmaj7 will become Emb6 Dm7 will become F6 Em7 will become G6 Fmaj7 will become Amb6 G7 will become Bmb5b6 Am7 will become C6 Bm7b5 will become Dm6 (I think that's right)[/quote] This is all good stuff. And realizing that all common chords are made up of triads - major/minor/diminished and augmented - is a great starting point. But can I just say I have never seen the chord symbol Emb6. While it is perfectly logical, I think it better to write it (and think it) Cmaj7/E. As a bass player, I think its best to "see" patterns of arpeggiated notes on the fingerboard/ fretboard. Then the common tonalities between differing chords will become apparent. I can't really offer any more advice on this question - I think its mainly down to learning all possible arpeggio shapes and, as I say, recognizing the common tones as you go. The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 [quote name='Major-Minor' post='521931' date='Jun 23 2009, 06:07 PM']But can I just say I have never seen the chord symbol Emb6. While it is perfectly logical, I think it better to write it (and think it) Cmaj7/E.[/quote] That's a fair point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 [quote name='dlloyd' post='521834' date='Jun 23 2009, 04:33 PM']While you've mentioned the Neopolitan sixth, it might be worthwhile mentioning the augmented sixths (to see if I understand them correctly): Italian sixth French sixth German sixth They also usually come before the dominant chord. An Italian sixth also comes before the dominant chord, but is built from a root that's a semitone sharp of the dominant... so in C major, you're talking about Ab. You add a major third ( C ) and the augmented sixth (F#). You end up with a chord that's enharmonic with an Ab7 without the fifth, which is almost like a tritone subbed secondary dominant. The French sixth is similar, but adds another note, which is the #4... in this case D, giving you a chord that is enharmonic with Ab7b5. The German sixth is like an Italian 6th with an added fifth. In C major, that would essentially add the 5th (Eb) to the Ab7 chord.[/quote] Whilst this is really fascinating stuff (and thanks dlloyd for bringing it to our attention), I think the jazzer should be aware that this all relates to 19th century musical thinking and is possibly not something that needs to be ingested and retained. I haven't heard any of these terms since music college 40 years ago ! The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 [quote name='Major-Minor' post='522324' date='Jun 24 2009, 09:13 AM']Whilst this is really fascinating stuff (and thanks dlloyd for bringing it to our attention), I think the jazzer should be aware that this all relates to 19th century musical thinking and is possibly not something that needs to be ingested and retained. I haven't heard any of these terms since music college 40 years ago ![/quote] It was more a point of interest than anything else, but I thought it worth mentioning since Spiltmilk had stumbled across Neopolitan sixths. I find this stuff interesting for a few reasons, but what particularly intrigues me is the influence that classical harmonies had on jazz. It's pretty well documented that Satie and Debussy (for example) had a big influence on various jazz musicians and composers, and their use of devices like the French sixth certainly appears to have filtered into the jazz vocabulary in the form of tritone subs and altered dominants. But yeah... there's no need to think of them in these terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Am I right in thinking that the 'common tones' Spiltmilk was referring to are nothing more complicated than relative minors (the sixth mode of any major scale or a minor chord three semitones below that major)? C6 is Am7, D6 is Bm7, G6 is Em7 etc. As for the Neopolitan stuff, I think MM is right. This is another way of repackaging stuff that is known by other terms elsewhere. It sounds a lot like figured bass to me but I am not 100% on 'classical' theory; my knowledge all comes from the use of theory in jazz. Its the sounds that matter not the names! Stravinsky influences Ohad Talmor a lot (he even quotes the Rite of Spring in a solo) [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lhistoire-Du-Clochard-Bums-Tale/dp/B001PM2P0A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1245837764&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lhistoire-Du-Cloch...7764&sr=8-1[/url] or OhadTalmor.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 [quote]As for the Neopolitan stuff, I think MM is right. This is another way of repackaging stuff that is known by other terms elsewhere. It sounds a lot like figured bass to me but I am not 100% on 'classical' theory; my knowledge all comes from the use of theory in jazz. Its the sounds that matter not the names![/quote] It's not figured bass (which is just a system for notating chords), but its name likely comes from figured bass notation, in that a 1st inversion major triad is indicated with a six. I don't really agree that it is a repackaging of stuff that's known by other terms elsewhere. [i]As I understand them[/i] they usually imply a fairly specific use of a chord to prepare a common or garden dominant chord. You'll get b5s and b9s creeping in, but they'll resolve to a basic 7 chord before it itself resolves. Should we worry about them? Probably not. Historically interesting, but of little practical use for most of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiltmilk_2000 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='522427' date='Jun 24 2009, 11:04 AM']Am I right in thinking that the 'common tones' Spiltmilk was referring to are nothing more complicated than relative minors (the sixth mode of any major scale or a minor chord three semitones below that major)? C6 is Am7, D6 is Bm7, G6 is Em7 etc.[/quote] Oh... I feel a little silly now! :blush: thanks again all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 [quote name='dlloyd' post='522389' date='Jun 24 2009, 10:20 AM']It was more a point of interest than anything else, but I thought it worth mentioning since Spiltmilk had stumbled across Neopolitan sixths. I find this stuff interesting for a few reasons, but what particularly intrigues me is the influence that classical harmonies had on jazz. It's pretty well documented that Satie and Debussy (for example) had a big influence on various jazz musicians and composers, and their use of devices like the French sixth certainly appears to have filtered into the jazz vocabulary in the form of tritone subs and altered dominants. But yeah... there's no need to think of them in these terms.[/quote] Actually composers like Satie and Debussy (and Ravel/Walton/Poulenc/Stravinsky/Delius etc) were writing during the period when jazz was in development, so they were influenced by jazz as much as jazz was taking ideas from them. And lets be clear: All these terms like Neopolitan 6ths etc were theorised during the Classical period ie the 18th and 19th centuries. Composers like Haydn and Mozart rarely strayed from the 4 note chord. It was really during the late Romantic period that harmonies started to really thicken and extend. Think of Mahler / Rhakmaninov / Richard Strauss etc But you are right - its all very interesting ! The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Major-Minor' post='524599' date='Jun 26 2009, 09:20 AM']Actually composers like Satie and Debussy (and Ravel/Walton/Poulenc/Stravinsky/Delius etc) were writing during the period when jazz was in development, so they were influenced by jazz as much as jazz was taking ideas from them.[/quote] Yes. Here's an interesting article on the influence of jazz on French music in the time period we're talking about... [url="http://mq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/XXI/1/53.pdf"]http://mq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/XXI/1/53.pdf[/url] Let me know if you can't open it, but I don't think it's password protected. Edit: I just got to the end of it. I don't agree with the conclusion about the 'failure of French jazz', but then it was written from an American perspective in 1935. Edited June 26, 2009 by dlloyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 [quote name='dlloyd' post='524880' date='Jun 26 2009, 02:33 PM']Yes. Here's an interesting article on the influence of jazz on French music in the time period we're talking about... [url="http://mq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/XXI/1/53.pdf"]http://mq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/XXI/1/53.pdf[/url] Let me know if you can't open it, but I don't think it's password protected. Edit: I just got to the end of it. I don't agree with the conclusion about the 'failure of French jazz', but then it was written from an American perspective in 1935.[/quote] Hi dlloyd I tried to get to read this article but got fed up with registration process - too convoluted for my poor brain ! Perhaps you could give us a precis of the contents ? The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major-Minor Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='522427' date='Jun 24 2009, 11:04 AM']Am I right in thinking that the 'common tones' Spiltmilk was referring to are nothing more complicated than relative minors (the sixth mode of any major scale or a minor chord three semitones below that major)? C6 is Am7, D6 is Bm7, G6 is Em7 etc. As for the Neopolitan stuff, I think MM is right. This is another way of repackaging stuff that is known by other terms elsewhere. It sounds a lot like figured bass to me but I am not 100% on 'classical' theory; my knowledge all comes from the use of theory in jazz. Its the sounds that matter not the names! Stravinsky influences Ohad Talmor a lot (he even quotes the Rite of Spring in a solo) [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lhistoire-Du-Clochard-Bums-Tale/dp/B001PM2P0A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1245837764&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lhistoire-Du-Cloch...7764&sr=8-1[/url] or OhadTalmor.com[/quote] Hi Bilbo Thanks for bringing this album to my (our) attention. I've never been a big fan of Steve Swallow - I find his tone a bit lifeless - but this album (having listened to the clips on Amazon) sounds really interesting. I love the line-up ! Especially as there are no drums !! And compositionally, it does as you say have Stravinskyesque influences. Can you tell me more about this sextet - the players / who wrote the pieces etc I rarely buy CDs these days but I might have to get this one. The Major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 [quote name='Major-Minor' post='525764' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:21 AM']Hi dlloyd I tried to get to read this article but got fed up with registration process - too convoluted for my poor brain ! Perhaps you could give us a precis of the contents ? The Major[/quote] I'll download it on monday. I don't have access to it from this computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 [quote name='Major-Minor' post='525764' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:21 AM']Hi dlloyd I tried to get to read this article but got fed up with registration process - too convoluted for my poor brain ! Perhaps you could give us a precis of the contents ? The Major[/quote] See if you can get it from here... [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=27944"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?act=attach...st&id=27944[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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