Replacement drivers for a GK Backline 210

[silverfoxnik]

Hi Folks

My Gallien Kreuger Backline 2x10 self-imploded on Saturday during a gig, which apart from being a pain in itself, just so happened to be at a gig when Bass_Ferret came to see the band.. Most embarrassing when there's a fellow Basschat member in the audience!!

Managed to get through the gig though (which went really well) and resolved to look at it the following day..So Sunday morning I opened it up and checked it out and though there's no visible signs of damage to the cone or coil, one of the driver's has definitely gone and the other sounds like it's going to follow suit.

My first thought was to get rid of the whole thing but then I got to thinking it'd be worth repairing it and either keeping as a back-up or maybe selling it on?

Any suggestions as to which way to go; should I get cheap drivers and shift the thing or get some really good ones and keep it? And where do I get them from is the other question...

Thanks,

Nik

[ahpook]

i'd say there's not much point replacing the drivers until you know [i]why[/i] they went...

[Kiwi]

GK drivers don't have a spotless reputation unfortunately and have been known to go. I've played an RB400 with an Eminence 15" cone in it and the sound was pretty good. With a pair of neo 10" cones in, your cab might have yet more midrange punch.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='55397' date='Sep 4 2007, 05:04 PM']GK drivers don't have a spotless reputation unfortunately and have been known to go. I've played an RB400 with an Eminence 15" cone in it and the sound was pretty good. With a pair of neo 10" cones in, your cab might have yet more midrange punch.[/quote]
Thanks for the replies...

That sounds like a plan Steve - can you buy these neo 10" cones from anywhere, or do I need to go to a particular manufacturer?

[i]"i'd say there's not much point replacing the drivers until you know why they went..."[/i]

Cheers ahpook - I think the answer to that is I put too much power into the cab.. The cab is an 8 ohm cab rated at 160w and I think, using it with my Hartke on it's own, I was putting more like 200w into it! Pretty stupid really, to say the least...

Nik

[WalMan]

Sorry to hear of your problems Nik.

I nearly came over myself on Saturday, but #1 son was home for the first time in 7 weeks so family duties & a curry took over.

BTW Plan C may come to fruition over the weekend

Of course none of that is of any use in your speaker problem. If you do not get it sorted my sound guy certainly used to have a good reasonably priced contact for recones & I could check with him for you

May see you on 15th

Al

[Kiwi]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='55669' date='Sep 5 2007, 12:13 AM']That sounds like a plan Steve - can you buy these neo 10" cones from anywhere, or do I need to go to a particular manufacturer?[/quote]
[url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/index.php?category=Speaker_Components&masthead=Loudspeaker_Drivers&subheadnew=10_inch_Drivers"]Blue Aran[/url] have a good stock of cones although mostly Eminence, Fane or P-Audio. It might be worth looking on Ebay for other manufacturers like Celestion or JBL? Maybe other members can suggest good suppliers as well?

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='WalMan' post='55680' date='Sep 5 2007, 12:29 AM']Sorry to hear of your problems Nik.

I nearly came over myself on Saturday, but #1 son was home for the first time in 7 weeks so family duties & a curry took over.

BTW Plan C may come to fruition over the weekend

Of course none of that is of any use in your speaker problem. If you do not get it sorted my sound guy certainly used to have a good reasonably priced contact for recones & I could check with him for you

May see you on 15th

Al[/quote]
Hi Al

No problem - family comes first! Good luck with Plan C...exciting stuff..

Funny enough, because I had this problem, for a gig on Sunday night and instead of my GK Backline 1x15, I decided to take out my old hand-made 1x15, which I bought along with an old Peavey Mk IV amp for £100 about 18 months ago from someone on Bassworld. It's the cheap rig I used to get started with after I decided to start playing again after my 12 year sabbatical..

Anyway, the cabinet is tatty as anything but inside is a really good 1x15 driver with the aluminum center cone (is that a black widow?).. Anyway, it sounded brilliant - even made me like my Hartke head again??? The combination of the DJ5, bit of compression and that old 1x15 was just great...So, apart from changing the Hartke for a GK 700, I might just have found a sound I really like that is also fairly compact for carrying around.. So much happier now..

Looking forward to the 15th - how's it going with the Sub 5?

Nik

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='55693' date='Sep 5 2007, 07:18 AM'][url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/index.php?category=Speaker_Components&masthead=Loudspeaker_Drivers&subheadnew=10_inch_Drivers"]Blue Aran[/url] have a good stock of cones although mostly Eminence, Fane or P-Audio. It might be worth looking on Ebay for other manufacturers like Celestion or JBL? Maybe other members can suggest good suppliers as well?[/quote]
Thanks Steve - I'll have a look and see what's what... I'm quite looking forward to seeing how the fairly low-budget GK cab can be improved upon with better drivers.

Nik

[WalMan]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='55718' date='Sep 5 2007, 08:46 AM']how's it going with the Sub 5?[/quote]

You may have seen elsewhere my rant about kids nicking my tools that came up when I put on a new set of Elixirs a couple of night ago, but otherwise good. Quiet r/h with it last night and wifey should be taking it over to Graham at Drum & Strum today for a quick set up with new strings, detuned etc to get me started

Al

[i]Sorry all this is off topic really [/i]

[alexclaber]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='55669' date='Sep 5 2007, 12:13 AM']The cab is an 8 ohm cab rated at 160w and I think, using it with my Hartke on it's own, I was putting more like 200w into it![/quote]

That would be unlikely to blow the speakers unless you were constantly clipping the amp (causing increased average power and thus thermal damage) or expecting too much bottom from a small cab (causing overexcursion and thus mechanical damage). As you were using a single 2x10" with a 200W head for what looks like a fairly rocking covers gig, both problems probably happened. It wasn't really an issue of too much power for your cab so much as an issue of not enough SPL (power x speaker sensitivity) capability from your rig resulting in pushing it too hard - like driving a car permanently in the red.

The speakers in the Backline are unlikely to be as good as even Eminence Alpha 10s (their cheapest 10" woofer) which cost about £25 each from Blue Aran. Will the resale on the Backline even justify that cost? Dubious, methinks...

---

Here's some good info from Jerrold Tiers (ex-Ampeg engineer) to help you diagnose what went wrong:

"If the head is rated anywhere within reason of the speaker power rating, there should be no problem. That would be within say 2x the speaker rating, maybe 3x.

DC certainly can be an issue for speakers, as it pushes the voice coil out of the magnet gap. That leaves part of the coil un-cooled allowing it to overheat. In a gig situation, you'd not notice anything until the speakers fail.

As I recall, some Hartke amps had an odd protection scheme that could potentially produce DC if it was not working right.

If you still have one of the dead speakers (the actual driver) you might look at it. Cut around the outside of the cone, and also cut around the threated cloth "spider" that is cemented to the front of the magnet. Snip the two wires and lift out the cone (if it will come out, it may be stuck in the magnet).

Now, look at the voice coil, the coil of wire that was sticking into the magnet.

if the coil is over-heated or burned-looking, possibly has shed some wires that are now loose, it was probably over-powered.

If there is a blackened ring around both ends of the coil, it likely got a lot of lows, and was over-powered.

If there is a pretty clear blackened ring around ONE end of the coil, where it is blackened etc, then I would tend to suspect DC that pushed the coil out of the magnet "gap" on that side.

If it looks perfect, except for loose wires at the end, or other damage to the end, then it probably was hit with lows it could not handle, and the voice coil was banging on the magnet backplate."

---

Actually, I've just thought of a good option. Buy a couple of Eminence Beta or Basslite 10"s and put them in your cab. Whilst that's keeping you running build a BFM Omni 10 cab and once complete then shift the woofers over to that. Then throw away the Backline (firewood?)

Alex

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='WalMan' post='55726' date='Sep 5 2007, 09:01 AM']You may have seen elsewhere my rant about kids nicking my tools that came up when I put on a new set of Elixirs a couple of night ago, but otherwise good. Quiet r/h with it last night and wifey should be taking it over to Graham at Drum & Strum today for a quick set up with new strings, detuned etc to get me started

Al

[i]Sorry all this is off topic really [/i][/quote]
I deal with Graham direct. His number is in the recommended luthiers list.

[WalMan]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='56270' date='Sep 5 2007, 10:46 PM']I deal with Graham direct.[/quote]
Ditto, known him since Broadway Music days when he refinished the Shergold and a top chap. It's just easier to send wifey to D&S - she knows where that is

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='55728' date='Sep 5 2007, 09:03 AM']That would be unlikely to blow the speakers unless you were constantly clipping the amp (causing increased average power and thus thermal damage) or expecting too much bottom from a small cab (causing overexcursion and thus mechanical damage). As you were using a single 2x10" with a 200W head for what looks like a fairly rocking covers gig, both problems probably happened. It wasn't really an issue of too much power for your cab so much as an issue of not enough SPL (power x speaker sensitivity) capability from your rig resulting in pushing it too hard - like driving a car permanently in the red.

The speakers in the Backline are unlikely to be as good as even Eminence Alpha 10s (their cheapest 10" woofer) which cost about £25 each from Blue Aran. Will the resale on the Backline even justify that cost? Dubious, methinks...

---

Here's some good info from Jerrold Tiers (ex-Ampeg engineer) to help you diagnose what went wrong:

"If the head is rated anywhere within reason of the speaker power rating, there should be no problem. That would be within say 2x the speaker rating, maybe 3x.

DC certainly can be an issue for speakers, as it pushes the voice coil out of the magnet gap. That leaves part of the coil un-cooled allowing it to overheat. In a gig situation, you'd not notice anything until the speakers fail.

As I recall, some Hartke amps had an odd protection scheme that could potentially produce DC if it was not working right.

If you still have one of the dead speakers (the actual driver) you might look at it. Cut around the outside of the cone, and also cut around the threated cloth "spider" that is cemented to the front of the magnet. Snip the two wires and lift out the cone (if it will come out, it may be stuck in the magnet).

Now, look at the voice coil, the coil of wire that was sticking into the magnet.

if the coil is over-heated or burned-looking, possibly has shed some wires that are now loose, it was probably over-powered.

If there is a blackened ring around both ends of the coil, it likely got a lot of lows, and was over-powered.

If there is a pretty clear blackened ring around ONE end of the coil, where it is blackened etc, then I would tend to suspect DC that pushed the coil out of the magnet "gap" on that side.

If it looks perfect, except for loose wires at the end, or other damage to the end, then it probably was hit with lows it could not handle, and the voice coil was banging on the magnet backplate."

---

Actually, I've just thought of a good option. Buy a couple of Eminence Beta or Basslite 10"s and put them in your cab. Whilst that's keeping you running build a BFM Omni 10 cab and once complete then shift the woofers over to that. Then throw away the Backline (firewood?)

Alex[/quote]
Hi Alex

Thanks for the detailed post... Your comment about 'firewood' is probably the most sensible approach to take with this really, all things considered.

Going off topic slightly, having just read the '3 daft Geordies and a whole bunch of gear' thread in Amps & Cabs posted by Warwickhunt and re-read my own comments here about how an old 1x15 cab that cost me less about £50 sounds great to my ears, it makes me wonder about what we're all chasing in terms of the perfect sound from our rigs? Especially as we all intermix technical info/data with subjective adjectives to describe what we like and hear - e.g. SPL and 'punch'. As we all differ so wildly in terms of what we think of as a good or great sound and because most of the venues we play in with our gear have really bad sounding rooms, isn't it almost impossible to achieve any consistency and define what is really good?

Anyway, mad musings aside and going back onto topic, I'm going to put in some cheaper 10" drivers and sell the cab, along with it's companion GK 1x15. Then, I'll continue with my old 1x15 for the immediate future because it sounds 'good' to me at the moment. And i'll try and do some proper research about what I really like/want from a speaker but that may take me some time..


Hi Al,

had a chuckle at your last post about Graham and Drum & Strum etc!! Has Graham set it up now and if so, how is it (going off topic again...)?

Nik

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='56270' date='Sep 5 2007, 10:46 PM']I deal with Graham direct.[/quote]


[quote name='WalMan' post='56281' date='Sep 5 2007, 11:43 PM']Ditto, known him since Broadway Music days when he refinished the Shergold and a top chap. It's just easier to send wifey to D&S - she knows where that is [/quote]
I can just imagine trying to give directions to Gahams - plus parking can be a challenge.

Very fond memories of Broadway Music. I used to get to try everything that came in - and when I say try I mean gig if I wanted to. Shame it all went up Barries nose.

[outsider70]

Hi
Same thing happened to my BLX 210. Luckily it was still under warranty and the shop has agreed to repair it...................that was two months ago, they're still waiting for a replacement speaker from Gallien Krueger!

Thing is now I dont need the cab and will sell it once it's repaired, they have offered to put an Eminence speaker in there but I would prefer an original (be it better or worse) as I think that would give me a better resale chance.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='outsider70' post='56411' date='Sep 6 2007, 11:09 AM']Hi
Same thing happened to my BLX 210. Luckily it was still under warranty and the shop has agreed to repair it...................that was two months ago, they're still waiting for a replacement speaker from Gallien Krueger!

Thing is now I dont need the cab and will sell it once it's repaired, they have offered to put an Eminence speaker in there but I would prefer an original (be it better or worse) as I think that would give me a better resale chance.[/quote]
Sorry to hear that though it's good you have the warranty in place! Sounds like this might be a fairly universal problem caused by quality brands like GK using cheap components to create budget range gear!

[WalMan]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='56310' date='Sep 6 2007, 02:06 AM']Hi Al,

had a chuckle at your last post about Graham and Drum & Strum etc!! Has Graham set it up now and if so, how is it (going off topic again...)?

Nik[/quote]
Nik I shall answer this [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5310"]HERE[/url] to keep your thread vaguely on topic

[johnm]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='54889' date='Sep 3 2007, 07:02 PM']Hi Folks

My Gallien Kreuger Backline 2x10 self-imploded on Saturday during a gig, which apart from being a pain in itself, just so happened to be at a gig when Bass_Ferret came to see the band.. Most embarrassing when there's a fellow Basschat member in the audience!!

Managed to get through the gig though (which went really well) and resolved to look at it the following day..So Sunday morning I opened it up and checked it out and though there's no visible signs of damage to the cone or coil, one of the driver's has definitely gone and the other sounds like it's going to follow suit.

My first thought was to get rid of the whole thing but then I got to thinking it'd be worth repairing it and either keeping as a back-up or maybe selling it on?

Any suggestions as to which way to go; should I get cheap drivers and shift the thing or get some really good ones and keep it? And where do I get them from is the other question...

Thanks,

Nik[/quote]

Have you tried the importer Beyer Dynamic they'll give you a quote on how much it'll cost to repair.

[outsider70]

[quote name='johnm' post='56482' date='Sep 6 2007, 01:11 PM']Have you tried the importer Beyer Dynamic they'll give you a quote on how much it'll cost to repair.[/quote]


Good idea. I dont think the speakers are expensive. However ala my earlier post stuff is taking ages to get here!