Bass players who advance the instrument into new territory

[thisnameistaken]

Do they though?

Yes there are some talented bassists about who can do loads of clever and difficult stuff, but ultimately everybody else with a bass is busy getting busy with a band, and there's no place for any of that. So has the role of the instrument been advanced at all through their innovation?

Clearly a lot of bassists pay a lot of attention to people like Manring, Wooten, Marcus Miller, Jean Baudin, etc. but if nobody but bass players are listening to them, and bass players generally can't incorporate any of that stuff into what they do (which seems to be the case) then is all this boundary-testing ultimately a bit futile? Can we conclude that, while it's interesting for the individual involved at the time and other Bass Anoraks, it's pretty irrelevant for anybody else?

Edited June 27, 2009 by thisnameistaken

[Happy Jack]

Holding down the low end while trying to play bits of McCartney, Jamerson and Dunn, no requirement to solo or be flashy, living in tonal heaven ... why would I want to go somewhere else?

New territory is there for the explorers, and no doubt I'll be able to get a cheap package tour there in a few years, but right now I'm perfectly comfortable playing a deep groove on a P-bass with flats.

[chris_b]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='525670' date='Jun 27 2009, 02:43 AM']....there are some talented bassists about who can do loads of clever and difficult stuff, but ultimately everybody else with a bass is busy getting busy with a band, and there's no place for any of that. So has the role of the instrument been advanced at all through their innovation?....[/quote]
My family saloon has a brake system that emanated from F1 cars so I see the "filter down" from these “clever” bassists to be mostly in the equipment not the playing. The lightweight cabs, flat response amps and cabs, the effects and extended range (5 +) basses are the legacy rather than what these guys are playing.

Having said that, these days most popular music still seems to be played on 60 year old Fender and Ampeg designs, so what do I know!!

[jakenewmanbass]

I suppose doing my utmost to be objective (which lets face it on this will be hard) I would give a similar answer as I did to your previous postulation (I find them both interesting btw)
I'm not touched or drawn or entertained by the bass gymnastic society in the same way as I am by Joni Mitchell, Bach, or James taylor. Nor do I glean the throwaway fun given to me by Dancing queen or Sam Sparros black and gold...
I am however wowed by some of the extent to which expression is developed by these guys and thats where my objectivity falls on it's face.
Notwithstanding any of the above, yours, my or anybodies view of these guys and their output means nothing and should mean nothing to the people from whatever background (player or not) whom enjoy, attend and purchase what these players have to offer.
I think it's also worth noting that many of the players who do the solo thing are also hugely experienced and have been in demand for their skills to provide very fundamental bass parts on big selling albums to a standard and with musicality and panache that you or I could only dream of (I'm thinking particularly of Victor and Marcus there)
Do they advance the instrument? I think in some small way they do.
Jake

Edited June 27, 2009 by jakesbass

[RhysP]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='525670' date='Jun 27 2009, 02:43 AM']Do they though?

Yes there are some talented bassists about who can do loads of clever and difficult stuff, but ultimately everybody else with a bass is busy getting busy with a band, and there's no place for any of that. So has the role of the instrument been advanced at all through their innovation?

Clearly a lot of bassists pay a lot of attention to people like Manring, Wooten, Marcus Miller, Jean Baudin, etc. but if nobody but bass players are listening to them, and bass players generally can't incorporate any of that stuff into what they do (which seems to be the case) then is all this boundary-testing ultimately a bit futile? Can we conclude that, while it's interesting for the individual involved at the time and other Bass Anoraks, it's pretty irrelevant for anybody else?[/quote]
I'd pretty much agree with you on this.
Jeff Berlin has said something pretty similar at clinics he's done.
Whilst agreeing that players like Sheehan, Manring (& lots of other flash buggers I can't think of now) are great players their material is only listened to by other bass players; It's a small self supporting market & always will be.
He then went on to ask people in the audience if they spent lots of time working on techniques such as tapping etc. & many said yes.
He then asked how many of them had ever got booked for a session or been called upon to at an audition to use these techniques and invariably the answer was no.

To me a lot of the stuff I see people raving over when bass players do it is just stuff that wouldn't get a second look if it was being done on a guitar. A perfect example was the clip somebody posted on here the other day of someone singing & accompanying himself on a bass playing a song he'd written. The first thing I thought was "Why?" The song wasn't, IMO, very good, his voice was decidedly average and if he'd been playing it on an acoustic guitar nobody would have given it a second thought. The bass in this instance, to my way of thinking, is being used for novelty value.

It's always entertaining ( for other bassists) to see a skilled player showing off, but at the end of the day the bass is required to play a supporting role in 99.9% of situations, and I for one don't have a problem with that.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='525670' date='Jun 27 2009, 02:43 AM']Do they though?

Yes there are some talented bassists about who can do loads of clever and difficult stuff, but ultimately everybody else with a bass is busy getting busy with a band, and there's no place for any of that. So has the role of the instrument been advanced at all through their innovation?

Clearly a lot of bassists pay a lot of attention to people like Manring, Wooten, Marcus Miller, Jean Baudin, etc. but if nobody but bass players are listening to them, and bass players generally can't incorporate any of that stuff into what they do (which seems to be the case) then is all this boundary-testing ultimately a bit futile? Can we conclude that, while it's interesting for the individual involved at the time and other Bass Anoraks, it's pretty irrelevant for anybody else?[/quote]

Yes!

[MythSte]

I think whats easily forgotton is that most of the players we've mentioned so far are also a part of bigger and invariably more "listenable" projects. I wouldnt be surprised if all the bass gymnasts started off with their solo bits purely as a bit of a home hobby and then some people have seen and gone "wow, you really got something there!".

So in summery, IMO it is a little futile for all the reasons above, but its not like the players are wasting themselves, moreover just enjoying themselves!

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='525718' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:31 AM']Holding down the low end while trying to play bits of McCartney, Jamerson and Dunn, no requirement to solo or be flashy, living in tonal heaven ... why would I want to go somewhere else?

New territory is there for the explorers, and no doubt I'll be able to get a cheap package tour there in a few years, but right now I'm perfectly comfortable playing a deep groove on a P-bass with flats. [/quote]
This is how i feel HJ..There are times when a bass solo are called for, and some times when it is not..My point is, we play an instrument that we all love and the bottom line is, we play it for the music, and we should be humble in that fact..This is why i love Sting, Ndegeocello, Mc Cartney, ,..they use the bass as a tool for a bigger picture...

Its great to have a passion for an instrument, and thats why, people on this forum are very good at playing the electric bass, but we are all a slaves to the music...Its great that people like VW take the instrument to its limits, but its not really what matters..I get much more joy when bass is played well in the context of a great song, and played well with taste and a vision that puts the jigsaw puzzle together...

I have allways wondered if our want for the best tone possible matters? But i came to the conclusion that my quest for the best bass tone is what ..I.. want to hear, and makes me want to play more, more than what the crowd cares about...I play the piano, and that takes the front seat when it comes to writing music..it just so happens that i love bass, so you can be sure i would make sure the bass sounded great...I hope

Edited June 27, 2009 by bubinga5

[risingson]

There are some none-bass players I have spoken to in the past who have mentioned Victor Wooten to me, having heard of him themselves despite having no bass playing experience. But I think most players that are working musicians haven't got time trying to advance the bass any further. I think there is less to be done now on the bass anyway, the time for bass renaissance seems to be over.

I personally have always had more fun listening to Jamerson, McCartney, Pino, and whoever else can hold down a good bass line. Flashiness doesn't impress me too much to be honest!

[Oscar South]

What the people who make this kind of thread/post don't realise about the really great bass players such as Wooten, Manring etc. is that they are highly in demand as a solo player and as a 'regular' bassist/musician. The number one argument against expanding your ability as a player is that "there's no place for any of that"; firstly there is a LARGE place for *all* of that, just not in the kind of music that the culprits of this statement listen to perhaps, secondly these great players have all worked full time in the music industry doing 'regular' gigs for years until their popularity as a solo artist has reached the point where they can focus more on that.

I'm fed up of these threads, maybe I'm wrong but to me it just seems like self-justification for not putting any more work into your playing than you have to. I don't actually have a problem with that in itself, its an individual choice, its the effect it has on developing players that I hate; mantras like "there's no place for any of that" and other re-wordings are creeping into bass education and giving developing players an excuse to put as little work in as possible.

Of every bassist I've met inside or outside of musical education, I'd say 90% of the good ones have experimented with and practice advanced techniques, probably 99% of the poor bassists who don't put the effort in have justified their inability to do these 'tricks' with mantras such as "there's no place for any of that"; is it just cooincidence that they're also terrible at 'simple' ensemble playing? It seems to me that advanced techniques represent a work ethic as much they do a niche genre.

[quote]Can we conclude that, while it's interesting for the individual involved at the time and other Bass Anoraks, it's pretty irrelevant for anybody else?[/quote]

I've played many open mic nights as a solo bassist and gotten gigs and studio work directly from it, I've thrown little bits and pieces of it into auditions and the feedback I almost always get is that it was that they blew them away and resulted in me getting the job/whatever else it is, whenever I've worked it into assessed uni performances I've gotten higher marks because of it. Not only this but when I play it live I have many people approach me and tell me how much they enjoyed it, they've never seen anything like it etc., MUCH more so than when I've just played the bass.

So it seems that my solo bass playing (and by any means, my solo playing is quite amateur and undeveloped) has directly resulted in me getting studio work, gigs, I got my place in uni partly because of a tapping arrangement that I threw into my audition piece, 'standard everyday' audiences have greatly enjoyed and appreciated it and I've gotten a great deal of enjoyment from it myself too.

I don't think that anything that can provide that much enjoyment and benefit for both the audience and the player can be called irrelevant.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Oscar South

[JBassist]

Yeah i much prefer a good bassline than a bass solo/shred
unless its a well composed solo.
some bassists can go fast and still sound good though like john paul jones, flea, Jaco and Others

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='chris_b' post='525739' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:56 AM']Having said that, these days most popular music still seems to be played on 60 year old Fender and Ampeg designs, so what do I know!![/quote]

if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[Faithless]

Biiiiig +1, over there, Oscar..

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='JBassist' post='526032' date='Jun 27 2009, 04:02 PM']Yeah i much prefer a good bassline than a bass solo/shred
unless its a well composed solo.
some bassists can go fast and still sound good though like john paul jones, flea, Jaco and Others[/quote]

when I was teaching I would encourage learning a bit of slap, pop, and tap. I think a bit of[i] flashy playing[/i] can aid development of technique, and be an introduction to new styles. Obviously application of technique is important, and should only be used where appropriate - such as to keep the gig moving if the guitarist breaks a srting/strap/lead etc, step forward the bassist and entertain

But mainly because it can be [b]fun[/b].

[Rich]

[quote name='RhysP' post='525807' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:20 AM']Jeff Berlin has said something pretty similar at clinics he's done.
...
He then went on to ask people in the audience if they spent lots of time working on techniques such as tapping etc. & many said yes.
He then asked how many of them had ever got booked for a session or been called upon to at an audition to use these techniques and invariably the answer was no.[/quote]
Yes, I've heard him come up with that before. He seems to be arguing that there's no point in learning something unless you're going to get paid for it.
Now call me a radical, but what's so wrong with playing or learning stuff for the [i]enjoyment[/i] of it? If getting paid was the be all and end all, I'd never get to play a note.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Rich' post='526046' date='Jun 27 2009, 04:21 PM']Yes, I've heard him come up with that before. He seems to be arguing that there's no point in learning something unless you're going to get paid for it.
Now call me a radical, but what's so wrong with playing or learning stuff for the [i]enjoyment[/i] of it? If getting paid was the be all and end all, I'd never get to play a note.[/quote]
That's not what he was saying at all.

He's always said that if playing a particular style (be it two handed tapping or whatever) is what you want to do then great, but the reality is 99% of bass playing work is in more traditional supportive roles.
He was talking purely from the perspective of people getting hired as jobbing bassists, not what you choose to play in your spare time or if you choose to take the solo bass artist path.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='Rich' post='526046' date='Jun 27 2009, 04:21 PM']Yes, I've heard him come up with that before. He seems to be arguing that there's no point in learning something unless you're going to get paid for it.
Now call me a radical, but what's so wrong with playing or learning stuff for the [i]enjoyment[/i] of it? If getting paid was the be all and end all, I'd never get to play a note.[/quote]

That's not how I read what he said. I read it to mean that, impressive as the 'advanced techniques' are, they are not a very big part of what people want a bass player to do.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Count Bassy' post='526067' date='Jun 27 2009, 04:43 PM']That's not how I read what he said. I read it to mean that, impressive as the 'advanced techniques' are, they are not a very big part of what people want a bass player to do.[/quote]
BINGO!! That's exactly what he was saying.
(I knew I should never have mentioned Jeff Berlins name......)

[risingson]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='526021' date='Jun 27 2009, 03:56 PM']What the people who make this kind of thread/post don't realise about the really great bass players such as Wooten, Manring etc. is that they are highly in demand as a solo player and as a 'regular' bassist/musician. The number one argument against expanding your ability as a player is that "there's no place for any of that"; firstly there is a LARGE place for *all* of that, just not in the kind of music that the culprits of this statement listen to perhaps, secondly these great players have all worked full time in the music industry doing 'regular' gigs for years until their popularity as a solo artist has reached the point where they can focus more on that.[/quote]

I agree with you on most of these points, Marcus Miller was very very heavily in demand in New York for many years, and no doubt still gets used by countless producers. But I would be skeptical about whether someone like Victor Wooten or especially Michael Manring has been used in the same way. No doubt that they have, but Marcus Miller has built a heavy profile on playing with huge names like Luther Vandross and Donald Fagan. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any names that spring to mind that have utilised Victor or Michael Manring like that. I guess my point is that being a session musician and solo bass player aren't generally synonymous with each other, or at least very, very rarely.

[quote]I'm fed up of these threads, maybe I'm wrong but to me it just seems like self-justification for not putting any more work into your playing than you have to. I don't actually have a problem with that in itself, its an individual choice, its the effect it has on developing players that I hate; mantras like "there's no place for any of that" and other re-wordings are creeping into bass education and giving developing players an excuse to put as little work in as possible.[/quote]

I agree with you on the first point, but then again it is a bass site and this kind of argument will always pop up every month or so! Ah well... I don't think that people are necessarily using this sort of argument as an excuse to not further themselves though. I think that solo bass playing is completely hit or miss for a lot of people, just like marmite.

[skankdelvar]

As a 'meat and two veg' root note plodder, I sincerely admire advanced technical skills and the hard work that went into developing them, without actually wanting to do it myself.

But I'm happy that some people like listening to bass gymnastics. While recognising that the opportunities to demonstrate such accomplishments are limited in those forms of music targeting the mass market, I see a useful trickle-down effect.

There is, IMO, currently a greater scope for the Bass-Zilla approach within certain genres of music, which, whether by coincidence or not, tend to enjoy a more selective appeal.

So I plod, others shred and everybody's happy.

[bythesea]

[quote name='liamcapleton' post='526082' date='Jun 27 2009, 05:11 PM']I agree with you on most of these points, Marcus Miller was very very heavily in demand in New York for many years, and no doubt still gets used by countless producers. But I would be skeptical about whether someone like Victor Wooten or especially Michael Manring has been used in the same way.[/quote]
I think a lot of that is down to ambition rather than anything else. Manring was pretty much the in-house bass player for Wyndham Hill Records. Presumably that was something he wanted to do, leaving him time (and no doubt studio time) to do what he wanted.

As a side note there is an article on session playing in this months BGM together with an article on Marcus Miller (and a little bit of crossover between the two).

Edited June 27, 2009 by bythesea

[bythesea]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='526092' date='Jun 27 2009, 05:24 PM']So I plod, others shred and everybody's happy.[/quote]
+1 - though I would be happier if I could play better

[risingson]

[quote name='bythesea' post='526099' date='Jun 27 2009, 05:34 PM']I think a lot of that is down to ambition rather than anything else. Manring was pretty much the in-house bass player for Wyndham Hill Records. Presunably that was something he wanted to do, leaving him time (and no doubt studio time) to do what he wanted.

As a side note there is an article on session playing in this months BGM together with an article on Marcus Miller (and a little bit of crossover between the two).[/quote]

Yeh. I don't profess to know the business of sessions inside out, but I do suppose a hell of a lot of application is required and that's a something you choose to do, or not. Will Lee talked about his greediness in the past taking every single session he was offered, whereas in reality there has to be some leeway. It also contributed massively to his cocaine habit.

[urb]

I think all the good, perhaps obvious, stuff has been said about the true listening audience for advanced bassists and the actual size of their very specific demographic... being a solo bass type is no quick and easy path to mainstream success and a steady income

BUT.... personally I've genuinely noticed the general standard of bass playing being a lot higher, albeit technically better for the most part, but I've seen a lot of accomplished bass players at all levels. This is just my personal observation but twenty years since Wooten, Manring, DiPiazza, Garrison, Feraud (and obviously Jaco and many others before them), have been heard by millions of players and listeners around the world... I think whatever outlandish or impractical approaches these advanced players have created they've undoubtedly inspired countless players to practice and push themselves that bit harder. Perhaps that's their greatest achievement..? (or not!)

Just 0.02p

Mike

[paul h]

Sorry, haven't read all the thread...attention span issues today!

However. Larry Graham. 'Nuff said. A genuine advance (possibly the last one?) into new territory. Massive influence on bass playing and music. And his vocals are almost as influential as his bass playing.