Bass players who advance the instrument into new territory

[risingson]

There is probably an argument to be had from the viewpoint that because of technological advances, there is more room and more of a chance for solo bass players to get their sound out. It might seem quite contrived, but back say 30-40 years ago, not only was the electric bass a fairly new thing, but sonically the equipment used back then was only good for certain things. Bass players have so many options available to them now, more strings, better amplification, better studio equipment, and so on. This probably has lent itself to the influx of solo bass players that we can hear today.

[thodrik]

I always think of the bass gymnastic techniques as like learning karate, great to learn but should only be called upon in an emergency in real life!

While I am absolutely in awe of Victor Wooten's technique, I am far more interested in his technique than the sounds he creates using said technique. That said, he would probably get my vote in this thread. Jeff Berlin, is just a bit too similar to Jaco at times for me to consider him to advancing the instrument, rather he just just being a modern-day master of the instrument. I also don't agree with his advocation of formal music training (probably because of my having to go through quite a lot myself!). I hate the idea of turning the bass guitar into a glorified classical instrument, which doesn't really move the bass into new territory, but the rather the reverse! The idea of using bass as a lead instrument has been around for ages. Mahler used it in the third movement of Symphony Number 1 in the late 1880s.

Also, I don't think there is much more scope for advancing the bass guitar as a classical-type solo-instrument. Although the develoment of electronics and amplification has made it easier to get a bass guitar solo to cut through a band than getting a double bass to cut through an orchestra, the frequencies used on bass guitar still easy to lose, or difficult to make out when playing with a band. Thus, most bass soloists are generally just that, or any other musicians playing have to careful that they don't drown out the soloist. This is not entirely different to the problems facing composers trying to write a double bass solo.

Furthermore, I know that compared to orchestral intstruments, the electric bass guitar is a new instrument, but there are only so many playing techniques you can actually use before a some kind of semi-established 'lead bass' technique develops, much like concert violinists. This would make it very difficult to leave much scope to actually advance into a new territory via technical playing, unless you consider playing faster a new technique! You could argue we have already reached that point now, with players expanding to 5, 6 and 8 stringed basses to try and escaped the limitations of 4 stringed basses.

While, I applaud Anthony Jackson and the Contrabass guitar, arguing that the instrument should have always have had two extra strings because bass guitars are more sonically similar to guitars, rather than double basses, really doesn't advance the instrument. It just adds two more strings to the same basic instrument, albeit in a pseudo-academic 'reinvisaging of history that never happened' kind of way. No matter what, that bass guitar is still generally going to be made out of wood, have pick ups, and possibly even be fretted. Has the seven-string guitar advanced the guitar in any way, apart from letting Slayer get that bit heavier? I really think that there is probably more scope for advancing the instrument in terms of effects and electroncs than there is in terms of technical playing or adding of strings.

In my opinion, those seeking to use it as an out and out solo instrument should really just play the guitar, rather than cutting all frequencies below 300HZ and boosting the treble to ear-shattering levels just so their solo can cut through! However, that might just be my stoner rock tendencies coming through...

[LukeFRC]

I am self taught, I am not an awful player- yesterday I played someones wedding ceremony; you dont often get asked to do that if you suck.
I have cast a passing glance at more 'advanced techniques', experimented a tiny bit. (still cant really master slapping!)

The reason I'm not interested in learning these 'advanced techniques' at the moment isnt lazyness, its just I dont see a musical value in them for me at the moment.
My current favourite bass player is James Jamerson, I love his rhythm and the tonality of his lines. I am still learning music and actually him or macca or someone teaches me something more relevant.
Not some advanced technique to play the notes but actually what notes do what at what points. I learn more about music by listening to jazz or beethoven or something than solo bass folk.

Now maybe when I have a greater grasp of that, I will begin to see ways to use advanced techniques to express what I want. What bores me sick though is folk who copy wooton, miller et al and their technique without understanding what they are doing.

I could be the greatest user of a hammer in the world, If I dont know [i]where[/i] the nails have to go my skill is wasted.

[Hot Tub]

Haven't read the whole thread, but here's my thoughts....

Victor, Stanley, Marcus, Tal, Jeff, Michael, etc.,

These people are the astronauts, the F1 drivers, the fighter pilots of bass guitar. Absolutely thrilling to listen to and to watch, but they have no relevance whatsoever to what we do on a daily basis.

[Waldo]

[quote name='Rich' post='526046' date='Jun 27 2009, 04:21 PM']Yes, I've heard him come up with that before. He seems to be arguing that there's no point in learning something unless you're going to get paid for it.
Now call me a radical, but what's so wrong with playing or learning stuff for the [i]enjoyment[/i] of it? If getting paid was the be all and end all, I'd never get to play a note.[/quote]

Doesn't Jeff Berlin himself fall into the catagory of 'great' player who's only listened to by other bassists anyway?

Or was that his point?

[rslaing]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526234' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:02 PM']Doesn't Jeff Berlin himself fall into the catagory of 'great' player who's only listened to by other bassists anyway?

Or was that his point? [/quote]

He might do now.

But during the 70's and 80's he had (possibly) equal status with Jaco as a pioneer of his instrument, and was very much an integral member of a number of bands that contained equally superb musicians.

Then his son had a serious illness and he took a back seat, spending all of his time on a much more important thing - helping his son and looking after his family.

Fortunately his son recovered from ( I think) leukaemia. That needs verifying.

Now he spends all of his time educating people about bass playing and music.

He is still a great player, whether in a multi instrument environment or as a soloist.

A great man with superior skills and believe it or not, a heart of gold whose life experience has changed his total outlook on the music "industry".

He really should be respected instead of all the sh*t thrown at him in here by a few people who really don't know what they are talking about.

[Waldo]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526237' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:18 PM']He might do now.

But during the 70's and 80's he had (possibly) equal status with Jaco as a pioneer of his instrument, and was very much an integral member of a number of bands that contained equally superb musicians.

Then his son had a serious illness and he took a back seat, spending all of his time on a much more important thing - helping his son and looking after his family.

Fortunately his son recovered from ( I think) leukaemia. That needs verifying.

Now he spends all of his time educating people about bass playing and music.

He is still a great player, whether in a multi instrument environment or as a soloist.

A great man with superior skills and believe it or not, a heart of gold whose life experience has changed his total outlook on the music "industry".

He really should be respected instead of all the sh*t thrown at him in here by a few people who really don't know what they are talking about.[/quote]

That's nice. A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526234' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:02 PM']Doesn't Jeff Berlin himself fall into the catagory of 'great' player who's only listened to by other bassists anyway?

Or was that his point? [/quote]
He was including himself in that category and he made these comments at a clinic he did in the Bass Centre in LA, which was featured in the April 1992 issue of Bass Player magazine. (Personally I think it's one of the most level headed & sensible articles about bass playing I've ever read).
It was exactly his point.

(And yes, his son was seriously ill with leukaemia).

Edited June 27, 2009 by RhysP

[rslaing]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526240' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:21 PM']That's nice. A simple yes or no would have sufficed.[/quote]
But not been sufficient for me

Thank you.

[risingson]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526237' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:18 PM']He might do now.

But during the 70's and 80's he had (possibly) equal status with Jaco as a pioneer of his instrument, and was very much an integral member of a number of bands that contained equally superb musicians.

Then his son had a serious illness and he took a back seat, spending all of his time on a much more important thing - helping his son and looking after his family.

Fortunately his son recovered from ( I think) leukaemia. That needs verifying.

Now he spends all of his time educating people about bass playing and music.

He is still a great player, whether in a multi instrument environment or as a soloist.

A great man with superior skills and believe it or not, a heart of gold whose life experience has changed his total outlook on the music "industry".

He really should be respected instead of all the sh*t thrown at him in here by a few people who really don't know what they are talking about.[/quote]


Interesting to know. I've got to say, I've never been huge on his playing but he is a fairly introspective musician, I think his confidence can easily be mistaken for arrogance.

[Waldo]

[quote name='RhysP' post='526242' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:22 PM']He was including himself in that category and he made these comments at a clinic he did in the Bass Centre in LA, which was featured in the April 1992 issue of Bass Player magazine. (Personally I think it's one of the most level headed & sensible articles about bass playing I've ever read).
[b]It was exactly his point.[/b][/quote]

That's good then, would sound rather hypocritical otherwise

[rslaing]

[quote name='liamcapleton' post='526244' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:24 PM']Interesting to know. I've got to say, I've never been huge on his playing but he is a fairly introspective musician, I think his confidence can easily be mistaken for arrogance.[/quote]

I agree. And he isn't arrogant, it is just our perception of him. He doesn't pander to people.

Just ignore his recent stuff and listen to his earlier playing. The man is brilliant. OK, he has his own personality which might be abrasive to some, wtf has that got to do with his ability as a player?

In spite of his apparent arrogance and displeasure at certain types of playing, he was one the pioneers of the modern slap technique for example. He just doesn't do it and hasn't done for 25 years because everyone else does it! He implores people to be individuals and develop their own style instead of copying everyone else.

And to contradict an earlier post, he never sounded like Jaco.

Jaco never had these sort of chops, whether you like this clip or not:

[rslaing]

[quote name='thodrik' post='526217' date='Jun 27 2009, 07:42 PM']I always think of the bass gymnastic techniques as like learning karate, great to learn but should only be called upon in an emergency in real life!

While I am absolutely in awe of Victor Wooten's technique, I am far more interested in his technique than the sounds he creates using said technique. That said, he would probably get my vote in this thread. Jeff Berlin, is just a bit too similar to Jaco at times for me to consider him to advancing the instrument, rather he just just being a modern-day master of the instrument. I also don't agree with his advocation of formal music training (probably because of my having to go through quite a lot myself!). I hate the idea of turning the bass guitar into a glorified classical instrument, which doesn't really move the bass into new territory, but the rather the reverse! The idea of using bass as a lead instrument has been around for ages. Mahler used it in the third movement of Symphony Number 1 in the late 1880s.

Also, I don't think there is much more scope for advancing the bass guitar as a classical-type solo-instrument. Although the develoment of electronics and amplification has made it easier to get a bass guitar solo to cut through a band than getting a double bass to cut through an orchestra, the frequencies used on bass guitar still easy to lose, or difficult to make out when playing with a band. Thus, most bass soloists are generally just that, or any other musicians playing have to careful that they don't drown out the soloist. This is not entirely different to the problems facing composers trying to write a double bass solo.

Furthermore, I know that compared to orchestral intstruments, the electric bass guitar is a new instrument, but there are only so many playing techniques you can actually use before a some kind of semi-established 'lead bass' technique develops, much like concert violinists. This would make it very difficult to leave much scope to actually advance into a new territory via technical playing, unless you consider playing faster a new technique! You could argue we have already reached that point now, with players expanding to 5, 6 and 8 stringed basses to try and escaped the limitations of 4 stringed basses.

While, I applaud Anthony Jackson and the Contrabass guitar, arguing that the instrument should have always have had two extra strings because bass guitars are more sonically similar to guitars, rather than double basses, really doesn't advance the instrument. It just adds two more strings to the same basic instrument, albeit in a pseudo-academic 'reinvisaging of history that never happened' kind of way. No matter what, that bass guitar is still generally going to be made out of wood, have pick ups, and possibly even be fretted. Has the seven-string guitar advanced the guitar in any way, apart from letting Slayer get that bit heavier? I really think that there is probably more scope for advancing the instrument in terms of effects and electroncs than there is in terms of technical playing or adding of strings.

In my opinion, those seeking to use it as an out and out solo instrument should really just play the guitar, rather than cutting all frequencies below 300HZ and boosting the treble to ear-shattering levels just so their solo can cut through! However, that might just be my stoner rock tendencies coming through...[/quote]


So if you don't mind, I'll precis your post:

It is all about musicality.

[Waldo]

[quote]Jaco never had these sort of chops, whether you like this clip or not:[/quote]

That's the sort of widdly playing that I really can't stand. Each to their own though.

Good to see that he isn't a slave to fashon too though

Edited June 27, 2009 by Waldo

[rslaing]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526257' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:45 PM']That's the sort of widdly playing that I really can't stand. Each to their own though.

Good to see that he isn't a slave to fashon too though [/quote]

Of course, all of these "widdly" tunes have to understood as purely an example of the musicians ability to "widdle".

And WTF has his dress sense got to do with his musicianship?

Maybe it makes you feel superior to him in that area?

[Waldo]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526262' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:52 PM']And WTF has his dress sense got to do with his musicianship?

Maybe it makes you feel superior to him in that area? [/quote]

It was a joke, referring to something that people often bring up.

Chill out.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526254' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:40 PM']Jaco never had these sort of chops, whether you like this clip or not:

[/quote]

hmm reminded me of teen town or something in the first min...


Edit: but played up at the dusty end..

Edited June 27, 2009 by LukeFRC

[rslaing]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='526267' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:55 PM']hmm reminded me of teen town or something in the first min...


Edit: but played up at the dusty end..[/quote]

Really? That might be because Jaco was influenced heavily by bebop, which is what Berlin is playing here. It's got f*** all to do with Teen Town or any other Jaco tune. Jaco ripped most of his riffs from the jazz players of the 50's. If you don't believe me, listen to Charlie Parker. The thing Jaco did was to transfer lead instrument solos to the bass, which no one else had done previously.

Maybe some extensive music study (history) would help.?

EDIT:- +1 to Berlin also for the fact he is alive, never took drugs or abused alcohol, never abused people, never proclaimed to be the best bassist in the world (which he probably was at the time), has taken care of his family and children and is passing on his ability and knowledge and educating young musicians.

None of which applies to Pastorius.

Edited June 27, 2009 by rslaing

[Waldo]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526271' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:02 PM']Really? That might be because Jaco was influenced heavily by bebop, which is what Berlin is playing here. It's got f*** all to do with Teen Town or any other Jaco tune. Jaco ripped most of his riffs from the jazz players of the 50's. If you don't believe me, listen to Charlie Parker. The thing Jaco did was to transfer lead instrument solos to the bass, which no one else had done previously.

Maybe some extensive music study (history) would help.?[/quote]

He can't help it if something 'reminds' him of something else can he?

What he said also didn't warrant a tirade about Jaco, nor did what I say previously warrant you telling me Jeff Berlin's online version of 'This Is Your Life'

Edited June 27, 2009 by Waldo

[rslaing]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526272' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:05 PM']He can't help it if something 'reminds' him of something else can he?

What he said also didn't warrant a tirade about Jaco, nor did what I say previously warrant you telling me Jeff Berlin's online version of 'This Is Your Life'[/quote]

On a trolling mission this weekend? I'll make allowances having read your other posts..........

[Waldo]

Right then....

I just don't understand why what's been said causes you to post big rants about Jaco Pastorius, rubbishing him as a player and a human being, whilst comparing him to Jeff 'Heart Of Gold' Berlin?

I just seems really uncalled for to me. The thread isn't called 'Who's Better? Jeff or Jaco?'

[rslaing]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526279' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:22 PM']Right then....

I just don't understand why what's been said causes you to post big rants about Jaco Pastorius, rubbishing him as a player and a human being, whilst comparing him to Jeff 'Heart Of Gold' Berlin?

I just seems really uncalled for to me. The thread isn't called 'Who's Better? Jeff or Jaco?'[/quote]

I am Jaco's number 1 fan...........but I also think that Berlin is a fine musician, possibly better technically, and doesn't deserve all the sh*t he gets in here.

Just because of his sweaters mainly

[Waldo]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526281' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:24 PM']I am Jaco's number 1 fan...........but I also think that Berlin is a fine musician, possibly better technically, and doesn't deserve all the sh*t he gets in here.

Just because of his sweaters mainly [/quote]

A good reply, fair enough!

It's his air of arrogance, perceived or otherwise that makes people dislike him I think. This has already been covered though

Edited June 27, 2009 by Waldo

[rslaing]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526283' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:25 PM']A good reply, fair enough!

It's his air of arrogance, perceived or otherwise that makes people dislike him I think. This has already been covered though [/quote]

Arrogance?!

Unlike Jaco, he never proclaimed himself to be "the best bass player in the world". But then again, he didn't have a mental problem.

Who are we mere mortals to judge these superior musicans anyway? I am sure that 99% of people in this forum would accept the skill and ability of most of the people they assassinate in here.

Just enjoy the music they bring into our lives eh? If you don't like what they produce, be objective, appreciate their skill and listen to the people you like without propelling other brilliant musicians to room 101.

[Waldo]

By his own admission he 'speaks his mind' and is 'very opinionated' and is generally quite forthright in his views. Reading interviews with him, I don't think it's hard to see why people think he's arrogant. Personally I don't like being branded a 'chimp' becuase I use tablature.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Waldo