Bass players who advance the instrument into new territory

[rslaing]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526308' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:49 PM']Personally I don't like being branded a 'chimp' becuase I use tablature.[/quote]

Well ignore that bit, and just learn from him what you can If we branded or pigeonholed people because of a comment or two, we would be guilty of the same offence that you are criticising him for .

I'm sure one or two of his outspoken comments won't prevent you from advancement in your playing skills and absorbing some of his excellent advice on playing bass?

And FWIW, it's just as easy to learn standard notation as it is tab, and there is a lot more of it about

Edited June 27, 2009 by rslaing

[Waldo]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526317' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:00 PM']Well ignore that bit, and just learn from him what you can If we branded or pigeonholed people because of a comment or two, we would be guilty of the same offence that you are criticising him for .

I'm sure one or two of his outspoken comments won't prevent you from advancement in your playing skills and absorbing some of his excellent advice on playing bass?

And FWIW, it's just as easy to learn standard notation as it is tab, and there is a lot more of it about [/quote]

To be fair we're not talking about off the cuff 'comments' here, his views on tabs, metronomes, chops e.t.c are things that he talks about a lot and teaches against in his clinics and schools.

In all honesty I don't find any of his views that I've read so far useful. It seems that everything i've done so far with my bass playing is wrong to him. Hell, I don't even know my instrument according to him.

I'm doing just fine

Edited June 27, 2009 by Waldo

[rslaing]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526331' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:17 PM']To be fair we're not talking about off the cuff 'comments' here, his views on tabs, metronomes, chops e.t.c are things that he talks about a lot and teaches against in his clinics and schools.

In all honesty I don't find any of his views that I've read so far useful. It seems that everything i've done so far with my bass playing is wrong to him. Hell, I don't even know my instrument according to him.[/quote]

OK. But I have always found that listening to the experts, whether I like them (and their sweaters) or not, has always helped in my personal musical development. I am pretty sure he just says the things he does because he feels very strongly about music in general.

And there are a lot of people who have been on his courses/clinics who reckon he is the dogs bollocks.

Coming back on topic - he was a pioneer and really did advance the bass when he hit "the scene" in the 70's.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526271' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:02 PM']Really? That might be because Jaco was influenced heavily by bebop, which is what Berlin is playing here. It's got f*** all to do with Teen Town or any other Jaco tune. Jaco ripped most of his riffs from the jazz players of the 50's. If you don't believe me, listen to Charlie Parker. The thing Jaco did was to transfer lead instrument solos to the bass, which no one else had done previously.

Maybe some extensive music study (history) would help.?

EDIT:- +1 to Berlin also for the fact he is alive, never took drugs or abused alcohol, never abused people, never proclaimed to be the best bassist in the world (which he probably was at the time), has taken care of his family and children and is passing on his ability and knowledge and educating young musicians.

None of which applies to Pastorius.[/quote]

hello.
I'm only 24, music study would tell teach me a lot, fortunately for me I studied art instead at high school and then went on to one of europes best art schools to get a degree in it. I studied extensively (and have a piece of paper to prove it) but A history of Jazz music wasn't covered.
i picked up a bass because playing is fun, because music is fun and making it is fun. It still is fun, and learning new stuff is fun.
basschat is good, I have listened to thing because of basschat I never would have otherwise. My music knowledge is of course inferior to those who have studied intensively but Im learning and have friends that show me new music.
I will go and listen to some charlie parker, a friend lent me some cds a while back i still have not listened too.

Its all a bit daft really, you could have used your education to say "thats because they are influenced by bebop, check out charlie parker" or something but instead you seem to be trying to insult me? How is that productive? Why?

You post a video saying Jaco didnt have chops like Berlin, I remark it reminded me of a song Jaco plays on.
You then tell me I'm stupid, reason given is that Berlin is playing bebop which Jaco is heavily influenced by.
Now if Berlin was playing Bebob and Jaco was influenced by baroque then i would be stupid, but seeing that you are confirming why I hear a similarity your insult is illogical; See logic i have studied.

[rslaing]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='526345' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:34 PM']hello.
I'm only 24, music study would tell teach me a lot, fortunately for me I studied art instead at high school and then went on to one of europes best art schools to get a degree in it. I studied extensively (and have a piece of paper to prove it) but A history of Jazz music wasn't covered.
i picked up a bass because playing is fun, because music is fun and making it is fun. It still is fun, and learning new stuff is fun.
basschat is good, I have listened to thing because of basschat I never would have otherwise. My music knowledge is of course inferior to those who have studied intensively but Im learning and have friends that show me new music.
I will go and listen to some charlie parker, a friend lent me some cds a while back i still have not listened too.

Its all a bit daft really, you could have used your education to say "thats because they are influenced by bebop, check out charlie parker" or something but instead you seem to be trying to insult me? How is that productive? Why?

You post a video saying Jaco didnt have chops like Berlin, I remark it reminded me of a song Jaco plays on.
You then tell me I'm stupid, reason given is that Berlin is playing bebop which Jaco is heavily influenced by.
Now if Berlin was playing Bebob and Jaco was influenced by baroque then i would be stupid, but seeing that you are confirming why I hear a similarity your insult is illogical; See logic i have studied.[/quote]
sorry, but I don't understand your response. And I can't find anything in the initial post that said you were stupid.

[thodrik]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526254' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:40 PM']I agree. And he isn't arrogant, it is just our perception of him. He doesn't pander to people.

Just ignore his recent stuff and listen to his earlier playing. The man is brilliant. OK, he has his own personality which might be abrasive to some, wtf has that got to do with his ability as a player?

In spite of his apparent arrogance and displeasure at certain types of playing, he was one the pioneers of the modern slap technique for example. He just doesn't do it and hasn't done for 25 years because everyone else does it! He implores people to be individuals and develop their own style instead of copying everyone else.

And to contradict an earlier post, he never sounded like Jaco.

Jaco never had these sort of chops, whether you like this clip or not:

[/quote]
Fair enough that were around at the same time and in that sense I was wrong and they can both be considered 'pioneers. Yet, they are not that unalike. Same kind of fusion style. Jeff Berlin just uses frets. Still, I'm gonna pick Jaco. No question, regardless of standards of 'chops'. Jeff is a much more disciplined technique wise for sure though. But technique isn't everything...though it helps!

Though, I am worried that I am developing the same dress sense as Jeff...if not the skills!

[RhysP]

Note to self:
I really must stop making reference to things Jeff Berlin has said when I post on Basschat threads.............

[Waldo]

Did that need to be posted twice?

[thodrik]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526360' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:47 PM']It's all down to personal choice. I just wish people wouldn't dismiss good players for frivolous reasons.

And regards the dress sense, believe me, when you get older, anything that is clean and ironed does the job, [/quote]

Well, for me just clean tends to do, ironing is a luxury!

Nah, I've always thought Jeff Berlin was a great player, said as much in my first post. I do have some issues with some of his opinions though I think he probably says he plans to piss some people off though. Means more people talk about him rather than someone else! He does approach the instrument in a different way from the slap and pop brigade thats for sure, and for that I'll give him a lot of credit.

Edited June 27, 2009 by thodrik

[rslaing]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526366' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:54 PM']Did that need to be posted twice?[/quote]
Nothing posted twice at this end.......

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='526021' date='Jun 27 2009, 03:56 PM']I'm fed up of these threads, maybe I'm wrong but to me it just seems like self-justification for not putting any more work into your playing than you have to.[/quote]

I wasn't trying to relate any of this to what I do or what you do privately with a bass, more gauge whether people believe that - through their innovative approaches - they've actually changed the way the bass is played or used, which I don't think they have to any noticeable extent.

I'll never be a chops-monster but I'm OK with that, I try to make up for it by contributing to songwriting, contributing harmony vocals, and so on, I'm better at those things so that's what I do, that's my added value if you like. It means I don't spend so much time practicing my instrument in an attempt to "get better" any more, but that's because there are only so many hours in the day, rather than out of laziness.

[quote name='urb' post='526174' date='Jun 27 2009, 06:56 PM']personally I've genuinely noticed the general standard of bass playing being a lot higher, albeit technically better for the most part, but I've seen a lot of accomplished bass players at all levels. This is just my personal observation but twenty years since Wooten, Manring, DiPiazza, Garrison, Feraud (and obviously Jaco and many others before them), have been heard by millions of players and listeners around the world... I think whatever outlandish or impractical approaches these advanced players have created they've undoubtedly inspired countless players to practice and push themselves that bit harder. Perhaps that's their greatest achievement..? (or not!)[/quote]

Yeah that's a good point, I hadn't thought of it in that way. But I bet people like Flea (especially) have been much bigger motivators, even though most of what he does is quite simple. I can imagine more budding bassists wanted to be like Flea than like Michael Manring, for obvious reasons!

[quote name='paul h' post='526177' date='Jun 27 2009, 07:01 PM']Larry Graham. 'Nuff said. A genuine advance (possibly the last one?) into new territory. Massive influence on bass playing and music. And his vocals are almost as influential as his bass playing.[/quote]

I thought about mentioning him in the original post, but there were the rock n' roll upright players doing percussive stuff before him. Maybe he was following their lead or maybe he wasn't, I don't know.

[Waldo]

[quote name='rslaing' post='526371' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:00 PM']Nothing posted twice at this end.......[/quote]

That's strange, I'm seeing you post the same thing at 10:45 and then at 10:50

Has the forum just broken or something?

Edited June 27, 2009 by Waldo

[rslaing]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526377' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:04 PM']That's strange, I'm seeing you post the same thing at 10:45 and then at 10:50

Has the forum just broken or something?[/quote]

Just had a look - yep, it came up up twice here too. I have deleted one of them, hope it does the trick.

But I only posted once at this end

Maybe a pointer to call it a day

[RhysP]

[quote name='Waldo' post='526377' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:04 PM']That's strange, I'm seeing you post the same thing at 10:45 and then at 10:50

Has the forum just broken or something?[/quote]
It went a bit weird around the time of those posts - lots of posts dropped out for a couple of minutes & when they came back that one post had been duplicated.
Odd.

[Paul_C]

Nothing that anybody else chooses to do on bass, or anything else, matters.

If you like what someone does then enjoy it, if you don't like it then let it go.

In other words, if all you want to play is simple stuff, then that's fine, if all you want to listen to is music with simple bass parts that's good too, but that doesn't mean that anyone else should base their playing style on what you want, they should be free to please themselves and leave it up to every individual who might listen to what they decide to play whether they choose to enjoy it or not.

Ultimately nothing is good or bad, it's just that you either like it or you don't, and if you don't like it, don't worry about it.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Paul_C' post='526397' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:34 PM']In other words, if all you want to play is simple stuff, then that's fine, if all you want to listen to is music with simple bass parts that's good too, but that doesn't mean that anyone else should base their playing style on what you want, they should be free to please themselves and leave it up to every individual who might listen to what they decide to play whether they choose to enjoy it or not.[/quote]

That's not the topic though. I was asking if the virtuoso bass players who approach the instrument in new ways actually advance the instrument at all, or if their efforts are basically sideshow (well, trade show) attractions and practically irrelevant.

We have seen some respondents saying that some of these guys are journeyman session sidemen, which wouldn't surprise me because they're clearly great musicians, but did Marcus Miller get asked to play the melody with his thumb on those sessions? Or did Michael Manring play mostly harmonics on the sessions he did, using the switches on his bass to cope with the changes like he does on his solo stuff? Or did they both (and do they continue to) play more typical bass parts? And did either of them contribute iconic bass parts to anything in the way guys like Pino did?

If someone wants to cop what they're doing in order to advance their knowledge or technique then that's great, but comparing what they do to what other skilled bass players did with fewer pyrotechnics and less fanfare (Carol Kaye, Jamerson, Herbie Flowers, Paul McCartney, Bernard Edwards, Flea, etc.) have they had much of an impact on what we do day-to-day, really?

I think it's a fair question to ask, but I'm not surprised that some respondents have got immediately defensive about it.

Edited June 28, 2009 by thisnameistaken

[urb]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='526468' date='Jun 28 2009, 02:39 AM']That's not the topic though. I was asking if the virtuoso bass players who approach the instrument in new ways actually advance the instrument at all, or if their efforts are basically sideshow (well, trade show) attractions and practically irrelevant.

We have seen some respondents saying that some of these guys are journeyman session sidemen, which wouldn't surprise me because they're clearly great musicians, but did Marcus Miller get asked to play the melody with his thumb on those sessions? Or did Michael Manring play mostly harmonics on the sessions he did, using the switches on his bass to cope with the changes like he does on his solo stuff? Or did they both (and do they continue to) play more typical bass parts? And did either of them contribute iconic bass parts to anything in the way guys like Pino did?

If someone wants to cop what they're doing in order to advance their knowledge or technique then that's great, but comparing what they do to what other skilled bass players did with fewer pyrotechnics and less fanfare (Carol Kaye, Jamerson, Herbie Flowers, Paul McCartney, Bernard Edwards, Flea, etc.) have they had much of an impact on what we do day-to-day, really?

I think it's a fair question to ask, but I'm not

surprised that some respondents have got immediately defensive about it.[/quote]

FWIW Manring is a very skilled "regular" bassist too and has a wonderful two finger picking technique he plays great in the pocket bass when required, there are some vids on YouTube of him playing with a jazz band and he doesn't tap or slap a single note and he can swing hard as well, he takes Giant Steps apart in pretty impressive style as well. The point is the best players know when to play a lot and when not to, but then again some sound awful when playing a song and use excessive technique...

[Golchen]

All I want to say is there's a place in the world for widdly bass playing and that's all I want to say.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Golchen' post='526586' date='Jun 28 2009, 11:25 AM']All I want to say is there's a place in the world for widdly bass playing and that's all I want to say.[/quote]Well put.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Golchen' post='526586' date='Jun 28 2009, 11:25 AM']All I want to say is there's a place in the world for widdly bass playing and that's all I want to say.[/quote]

Edited June 28, 2009 by skankdelvar

[chris_b]

[quote]....Bass players who advance the instrument into new territory....[/quote]
One thing that I've noticed in the last 20 years is that we, as a bass playing community, have developed an increased confidence in ourselves and our role. Maybe that's "trickle down" from the likes of Victor Wooten and Marcus Millar etc. When talking to bass players we used to think, "We are an important part of the rhythm section", but now we are more likely to say, "We are an important part of the band." Generally bass players seem to be more "up front" than they were.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='526639' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:28 PM'] [/quote]

Umm... a little unfair, don't you think?





Alaskans have feelings too. Might I suggest here instead?

[Oscar South]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='526373' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:01 PM']I wasn't trying to relate any of this to what I do or what you do privately with a bass, more gauge whether people believe that - through their innovative approaches - they've actually changed the way the bass is played or used, which I don't think they have to any noticeable extent.[/quote]

Thats fair enough and I can see the virtue of it, but you're only applying your hypothesis to your own personal hemispheres of music. Its simply not true unless all you want to play is rock covers in the pub. Just earlier this year I was called to play in a band that required double thumb techniques and tapping parts. Originals bands are an entirely differnt game too as you you can do whatever you want, I've seen some incredible bass playing in originals bands that has literally made the band and given it that extra focus that just wouldn't have been there with just root plodding.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='526468' date='Jun 28 2009, 02:39 AM']I think it's a fair question to ask, but I'm not surprised that some respondents have got immediately defensive about it.[/quote]

You put it across in a very provocative and somewhat ignorant way. Whether you meant to or not is beside the point, thats how it reads.

[Waldo]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='526663' date='Jun 28 2009, 01:01 PM']Umm... a little unfair, don't you think?

Alaskans have feelings too. Might I suggest here instead?

[/quote]

So it's pride of place is with child rapists then?