Right hand finger technique too forceful?

[M-Bass-M]

I'm finding that when I play fingerstyle with my right hand, I press the string down in such a way that the string makes contact with the 20th fret. The result is a slight amount of fret noise before each note.

I've tried changing my technique so that I pluck the string more horizontally than vertically (if you understand what I mean!), but this both seems rather ineffective, but also results in a slightly awkward wrist angle.

Another thought is whether or not the string action is too low, or whether the neck needs adjusting (and if so how?).

Any thoughts would be most welcome.

Cheers

Mark

[mcgraham]

Well, we can't see or play your bass, so I'm afraid I can't say whether the action/setup is good or not. This is also a very personal thing. I suggest that you take your bass along to a technician/luthier and get it set up to your liking. This is always a good thing to do, and will certainly answer your question regarding whether the set up is responsible or not.

With regards to playing technique, I suffered from the same problem when I started playing. I did it for a whole year without noticing too much so well done for spotting it! My problem was I was hitting the strings with too much force (either too fast or too hard). The solution is to lighten up your playing (provided the instrument is set up correctly for you). The methods for implementing this solution can vary. You could:

1) just play softer (good idea is to turn the volume up on your amp to cause you to have to play softer to maintain the previous volume level)
2) play nearer the bridge (this is so that the displacement of the string caused by your plucking is decreased, relative to plucking near the neck - this will change the tone dramatically, plucking softer is a more useful thing to learn)
3) get a finger ramp (highly recommended - check out Talkbass-->Technique forum-->Guide to ramps thread [near the top] for some great discussion and explanation on this device)
4) pluck the strings so they move parallel to the fingerboard (if you pluck them so that they move perpendicular then the max displacement of the strings is in the direction of the frets and they are more likely to hit them, whilst parallel movement is not)

With regards to wrist angle in the last one, have a look at the floating thumb and don't straighten your fingers so much. If you try to keep them straight then you WILL get an awkward wrist angle.

I'm sure there are other methods but these are options that helped me.

Mark

Edited June 29, 2009 by mcgraham

[M-Bass-M]

Thanks for the response - it's extremely useful.

I'm inclined to think although I could do with increasing the action slightly, it wouldn't be enough to sort out the overall problem.

The more I think about my playing technique, the more I think I need to address the following:

1. Not plucking so hard. I've tried playing more softly and cranking up the volume, and this seems to alleviate the problem somewhat.

2. Playing with bent fingers (and hence plucking parallel, and not perpendicular). Have to admit that it feels frustrating to go "back to basics" with my technique, but I guess it will be a good opportunity to start a 3- or 4-finger technique going!

I'll be sure to keep you posted - and thanks for the tips!

Mark

[mcgraham]

No problem! I'm pleased to see someone who's willing to go back to basics to correct issues. Most musicians aren't so willing, so props for that.

Re: 'bent fingers' search for Todd Johnson or Gary Willis on youtube. Find a video of either in which they explain how they position their right hands (Todd Johnson floating thumb vid is great for this). Basically it's 'relax your right arm totally and let it hang limp in front of the bass, whilst keeping the forearm and arm relaxed draw the upper arm up so that the hand comes to rest in front of the strings' Don't try to 'reach' for the strings, or position or tense your fingers to in preparation for plucking. Then note how your hand is formed and positioned. You should find the fingers are naturally curved (varies from person to person - as an example, the tip-most segment of my index and middle fingers are exactly perpendicular to the surface of the bass). I treat this finger position as the outermost extreme of motion my fingers should make when plucking. So they only ever pluck further inwards towards my palm/heel of my hand from this position, they never straighten more than this (at least for the purposes of practicing technique). Does that make sense?

Re: 3 or 4 fingers - If you absolutely must learn a multi-finger technique I suggest the Matt Garrison style Thumb Index Middle Ring (TIMR) technique. This is useful for so many more things than playing just basslines, and you can get supreme amounts of speed using this. 2 fingers are plenty fast, believe me they can go faster than you could ever believe possible with the right amount of work. The work you'd put into 3 or 4 fingers would yield phenomenal results if poured into 2 finger technique.

Mark

[M-Bass-M]

Thanks for the different tips. Actually trying out the four finger technique made me understand what you mean by hand / arm position, and how the plucking action is more towards the palm than down.

Thinking more about my "old" technique, I think how I anchor is at the heart of it. Using my thumb as an anchor, the pressure point would be at the tip of the thumb, and to pluck I would bring the finger and thumb tip together. This results in straighter fingers when plucking - at least it does when I try it on the desk in front of me!

I'm guessing to change this, the pressure point on the thumb should be the side of the thumb (and not the tip), and hence when I pluck, I bring the fingers towards the palm and not the thumb tip. Again, the frustration of not having a bass with me now to try this out on!

One additional question, do you have your forearm resting on the bass, or do you have it floating above? My tendency is to want to anchor my forearm on the bass, but I find that this can hinder quick movement between top and bottom strings.

Cheers

Mark

[mcgraham]

Anchoring your thumb instantly introduces tension. I'm not saying it doesn't feel good and sturdy (at least to start with), but IME it ultimately slows you down and will impede your progress more than relaxing and using the floating thumb approach.

Re: forearm - it is contact with the bass, but it's not resting in the sense that I put the full weight of the forearm on the bass (see Victor Wooten or the like with the 'bird wing' type right arm position) as this cocks the wrist at a bad angle and also introduces tension/pain in the wrist at high speeds. However, I don't have it totally hovering (see Oteil Burbridge) as this introduces tension, discomfort and fatique in the forearm. This is also unnatural (for me) and unnecessary. I keep my forearm and wrist in line with one another and just part of the forearm contacts the bass when playing. Just enough to provide some stability and reduce the suspension of the arm, whilst not introducing more tension than necessary.

Any kind of anchoring (which I shall call intentional application of force by your body on the bass) that isn't directly contributing to plucking the strings is wasted energy and adds tension. Better to avoid this.

Mark

[dlloyd]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='533535' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:10 AM']Any kind of anchoring (which I shall call intentional application of force by your body on the bass) that isn't directly contributing to plucking the strings is wasted energy and adds tension. Better to avoid this.[/quote]

Anchoring your thumb doesn't have to be forceful.

[Major-Minor]

Can I add to this:
I think its really important to practise playing with different levels of right hand "attack". Some styles of music require you to play very consistently dynamic wise, but there are many genres where you need to be able to play at differing volume levels. And I'm not referring to the idea of a using a volume pedal or adjusting volume on your bass, but to the idea that you can change the texture of the sound by using more, or less, right-hand pressure on the string.
You also should get used to playing on different areas of the string:
Tight up against the bridge will give you a great "in yer face" sound - edgy and focussed.
At the end of the fingerboard will sound round and warm if played gently - or if you lay into the string at this point you can get lots of interesting extraneous sounds.
Each area of the string will feel different under the fingers, so you need to get used to this.

The Major

[mcgraham]

[quote]Anchoring your thumb doesn't have to be forceful.[/quote]

I agree that you can place your thumb against a string ala an anchor and not be using so much force that you grind the string into the pickup. However, the very nature/definition of anchoring means that there has to be some application of force. If this application of force is NOT being used to actually pluck the string, then you are introducing tension (even a small amount). Whilst some may see this as allowable/forgivable, for my own technique I do not.

Any force you apply (outside of plucking), however small, will need to be negated (i.e. ceased or opposed) at some point (e.g. moving strings, reaching for strings, moving the plucking point relative to the bridge, etc). This means you'll either need to [u]stop [/u]anchoring (to move to the next string, or just to move your hand), or you'll need to 'fight' (i.e. [u]oppose[/u]) this force you are applying (think about those that always anchor on the E and end up reaching for every string). This, to me, seems like you're fighting yourself. However, if you go for a non-anchoring floating thumb approach, this problem disappears. Yes, it introduces a host of other things you need to work on, but I'd rather those that a constant ongoing battle of my right hand against itself.

Mark

[mcgraham]

[quote]Each area of the string will feel different under the fingers, so you need to get used to this.[/quote]

This is very true. It's amazing how many bassists get tripped up when they try to play somewhere else relative to the bridge that they're not used to. For people who are just starting to focus on their technique, I wouldn't worry too much about moving around (for the purposes of technique at least, but musicality needs to be brought into it eventually) but just pick a region that you agree with the 'feel' of and stick with it. I stuck to plucking at the bridge pickup. Then I evolved to plucking nearer the neck pickup as I found out what sounds I could get and what I liked. I did this whilst simultaneously working on technique, build them in together and don't neglect one over the other, but don't trip yourself up by trying to work out too much too soon.

Mark

[Major-Minor]

Mark has made some very well informed points in this thread.

For many years i played my Fender Jazz with my thumb (mostly) anchored on the bridge pickup, to the point that there is now an indentation in the wood !
Last year, I was so worried about taking a 1962 Jazz into dodgy venues that I bought a Yamaha TRB1005 5 string which I now use all the time. (If IT gets knicked its not the end of the world).

With having 5 strings, I soon found that I was getting a lot of ringing-on from the E and A strings if I was, say, soloing in the upper reaches on the G and D. This caused me to re-assess my right hand technique, and now I use what I suppose could be called the floating thumb technique ie my thumb is in line with the fingers but sort of lying on the strings that need to be muted.I move the thumb around according to which strings I need to play on.
This all works very well from a musical perspective. But there has been a down side:
Due to the more bent wrist position that this technique demands, I am now getting "tennis elbow" - quite severe pains at times - but I'm doing some stretching excersizes before playing and that seems to help.


The Major

[mcgraham]

Thanks MM.

[quote]Due to the [i][b]more bent wrist [/b][/i]position that this technique demands, I am now getting "tennis elbow" - quite severe pains at times - but I'm doing some stretching excersizes before playing and that seems to help.[/quote]

Woah!! Floating thumb demands a bent wrist?!? Definitely not! If anything it demands a [u][i]straight [/i][/u]wrist. Check out Todd Johnson's video on Youtube. If you've got a bent wrist then are possibly not muting the lowest strings effectively when playing the highest (the dropping of the elbow forces the heel of the hand away from the strings), and you'd also be prone to the pain you've described. Please forgive me if I sound like I'm lecturing, I just can't stand the thought of technique induced pain!

Mark

Edited July 6, 2009 by mcgraham

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='533793' date='Jul 6 2009, 02:11 PM']Thanks MM.



Woah!! Floating thumb demands a bent wrist?!? Definitely not! If anything it demands a [u][i]straight [/i][/u]wrist. Check out Todd Johnson's video on Youtube. If you've got a bent wrist then are possibly not muting the lowest strings effectively when playing the highest (the dropping of the elbow forces the heel of the hand away from the strings), and you'd also be prone to the pain you've described. Please forgive me if I sound like I'm lecturing, I just can't stand the thought of technique induced pain!

Mark[/quote]
Sorry Mark - I probably described my playing style in the wrong terms. If you look at Laurence Cottle's website www.laurencecottle.com you will see a vid of him playing. This is more or less my style ie the bass slung fairly high, right wrist bent a little and you can see what I would call the floating thumb. This may be different to your interpretation.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure that my tennis elbow is as a direct result of this technique change. I also (and mostly) play DB. I bought a new bow a few months ago which is a lot heavier than I'm used to (but a good bow all the same). This may have contributed to the RSI problem. Plus I'm just getting old ! (58 last week).
I;d been getting a few twinges in the right arm but thought little of it. Then had a week's holiday, came back and with only a 30 mins warm up, straight into a long function gig on BG - one of those where you don't stop for 2 hours. After that I could hardly move my right arm. So my own fault really ! I'm finding that the more I play at the moment the less pain I get - seems the wrong way round doesn't it ?

I had similar probs in my left arm some years ago - had loads of time off and physio / massage etc but the problem returned as soon as I started work again. Eventually it just went away and I'm hopeful that will be the case with my right arm.

The Major

[mcgraham]

Ahhhhh... gotcha! Yes, a bit more slanted rather than bent. I know exactly what you mean. Todd Johnson does this as well. Mine is much more like Gary Willis's technique. My apologies for misunderstanding what you meant.

I'm truly sorry to hear about your arm pain and playing trouble. I hope you manage to get some respite from this soon. I had a comparatively minor pain in my right wrist about 6 months after I started working, mostly in front a computer. Just due to copious amounts of mouse work, typing, bass playing, exercise, weights, sport, etc. I then switched the mouse to my left hand and did a quite tune up technique wise and all was fine.

So you double on both bass and upright? How do you find the difference in technique? Do you find a great deal of crossover?

Mark

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='533842' date='Jul 6 2009, 03:02 PM']So you double on both bass and upright? How do you find the difference in technique? Do you find a great deal of crossover?

Mark[/quote]
I think of them as separate instruments. Yes there are similarities but I put on a new head for each. I spend most days working on DB (BBC studio work) and if I have a BG gig in the evening I need to do at least 30 mins warm up before feeling comfortable with it.
The biggest problem is when I play both on one gig, changing from one to the other with no time to re-think.
Earlier this year i did a short tour with some Star dancers from a well known BBC TV Entertainment show and this required playing both DB and BG. I actually got quite good at the quick change, mainly because I practised doing it at home. 15 mins on one then 15 mins on the other for several hours ! I think the main prob is in the left thumb. The grip is a different distance (hope that makes sense!). When you go onto BG after DB, it feels so small. And vice versa.

But I'm glad I play both. There are not many who do (to pro standard), so there is more call for the "doubler".

The Major

[mcgraham]

BBC studio work? Nice. Do you get a fair amount of variety in your day then?

I totally agree about them being different instruments. I'm happy to admit I'm not a DBer, but I believe that they are physically different enough that they warrant treating as different instruments that are more or less independent from one another. I personally treat the bass more like a classical guitar than an upright.

Mark

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='533909' date='Jul 6 2009, 04:44 PM']BBC studio work? Nice. Do you get a fair amount of variety in your day then?

I totally agree about them being different instruments. I'm happy to admit I'm not a DBer, but I believe that they are physically different enough that they warrant treating as different instruments that are more or less independent from one another. I personally treat the bass more like a classical guitar than an upright.

Mark[/quote]
Actually my BBC work is mainly on the classical side - you may know the Beeb has 5 orchestras around the country. I'm a member of one of those - now in my 37th year !
But I've always played bass guitar / jazz double bass - everything from rock,pop, funk and jazz to cabaret, theatre work and big bands plus oodles of education work - and also some very interesting fusion work with Indian Classical (Carnatic) and Chinese musos.

So yes my musical life is very varied! I also compose /arrange/orchestrate/produce.

[M-Bass-M]

All

Thanks for all the tips and advice, and even the quite interesting thread hijack!

For me, the long and short of it is a change in technique. It's a bit frustrating at the moment, as my finger muscles clearly need to be developed to work with the new technique, but I can see how it would reap dividends in the long run.

Ironically enough, this question actually arose from trying to play nearer the neck rather than the bridge. Although I do love the sound from playing at the bridge of a Jazz, it doesn't always suit itself to rock!

Cheers

Mark

[mcgraham]

I don't think anyone really likes having to go back to basics. I've done it two or three times for various reasons. Once I did it because I wanted to use the Matt Garrison technique exclusively (starting from scratch), then later again because I discovered the limitations in using four fingers and wanted to get two finger technique up to speed. It's hard, but a few hours a day for a few months can get you to your goal.

Good luck and don't give up!

Mark

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='534405' date='Jul 7 2009, 09:12 AM']I don't think anyone really likes having to go back to basics.[/quote]
Actually, I think its a good idea to "go back to basics" at the start of every practise session. Rather than go straight to your favourite riffs or licks, begin with slow scales and arpeggios, checking that all the little technique points are taken care of ie left hand position, angle of attack in right hand, keeping your head straight, general posture etc etc
Gradually increase the speed of each scale or arpeg but still keeping everything under control.
Ten minutes of this will do wonders for your general technique.
Then you can thrash away to your hearts content on your fave bits..........

The Major

Edited July 8, 2009 by Major-Minor

[mcgraham]

Good point! Although I was more referring to suddenly deciding to change the way you play totally, rather than an ongoing modification.

I tend to start mypractice routine with a 30 minute warmup/tuneup session. I have a series of exercises that I work up the metronome on, making sure I'm accurate each time I increase. I've already put the hard work in getting it right (spent hours a day for months working on technique) and now I just maintain it and tighten it up, whilst working on new difficulties.

Mark

[peted]

I have found that the longer I've been playing bass, the lighter my playing has become. My playing has gradually got a lot faster with practice and my fingers are a lot more co-ordinated. I've also found that as I've progressed over the years I'm in bands that play much longer sets and found that if I play with as much force as I used to that I very quickly get cramp in my hands and fingers.

The percussive fret thing isn't necessarily bad as it adds attack to the notes but should be avoided if it doesn't sound musical. The best advise I can give would be to practice playing for the longest sessions possible and find a finger pressure that you feel comfortable with and allows you to play without getting too tired.

I'm sure when I first started to have lessons I was taught that I should be gently plucking the strings, but I find myself now either pressing the strings across the fretboard, or even slightly towards the fretboard and allowing them to 'bounce back' as my finger releases them.