String height / action - I've learned a valuable lesson!

[The Burpster]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='528449' date='Jun 30 2009, 11:10 AM']Hi all

Fairly random post, and probably not news to 99.9% of you all, but...

In the last couple of years I've taken to doing minor adjustments myself... truss, string height, etc. I've always set my action so it's the lowest it can be without the strings choking or rattling off the frets at the end of the board.

As a result, the action on my basses has, over time, lowered to around 2mm (from string to top of fret) at the 12th and the heel end.

Recently, I've become increasingly frustrated with my tone, especially at larger gigs. I just haven't sounded round enough, and when I've dug in, the notes have been 'barking'.

It can't be the action, I thought. The strings are ringing cleanly... I even thought one of my 'ol sets of Le Bella flats had gone bad. I was about to retire them, when the penny dropped...

Of course, when I've been adjusting my basses it's been at plink-plink room volume. At a gig, with more volume and adrenaline... you play harder. Hence the chokes!

So, I've upped the action to about 3mm (it feels like a heck of a lot, but you really don't notice at a gig) and all the sudden my notes are ringing big and round, with plenty of growl in reserve when I dig in.

Bliss.

Why didn't I think of it before??

Don't be afraid to raise tha action a little more than you think, people... you might be suprised at how much difference it makes to your ears, but how little difference it makes to your hands!

If this post helps one person, it'll have been worth typing. [/quote]


Sooo so spot on.....!

I too always strive for the lowest possible action but the realisation slapped me 'round the face.....

Bigger strings need slightly more height to work properly..... having gone from 100s to 105s (to make proper use of the D-tuner) trying to get the same 'something' with a low action just didnt work..... raising the action just over .5mm made such a huge differance.....

Might not work for everyone but gotta agree with you...... oh and its not just big venues (as I doubt I'll get the call for that), but playing through valves its so noticable.......

[Jase]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='529913' date='Jul 1 2009, 08:12 PM']Strangely, I think the clunk, clank buzz and bark were drowning out the my growl. Now I've got loads of it..

Horses fer courses, though![/quote]

I mean like a fret growl or drag as opposed to a tone growl, if you get me. Mind you, the term "growl" is open for debate I suppose.

[ped]

I use 40-100s on a neck with almost no relief and a 1.2mm action at the 12th fret. No buzz anywhere but a lovely clank when I dig in. I play pretty lightly and like my slap to come out at the same volume so the sound is really consistent. Graphite neckage helps this setup obviously and I haven't touched it for years. I normally play in a studio but have to say I play with the same velocity live so I certainly won't be touching mine! You can her the sound of the action in the clips on my site in me sig if you like or the youtube vid.

Cheers
ped

[4000]

Just adjusted the neck of the Sei Melt (forgot I put slightly different gauge strings on the other night, 40-100 from 40-95); a gnats under 2mm at the 12th E to about 1.5mm at the 12th G. I think I'd need a fret dress to get to Ped's action.

FWIW all of this depends on how hard you pluck, but also how hard you fret.....a fellow bassist once commented on how lightly I fret the strings, barely pressing the strings at all, and my plucking (except when I want it to be hard) is extremely light.

Edited July 1, 2009 by 4000

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='528449' date='Jun 30 2009, 11:10 AM']So, I've upped the action to about 3mm (it feels like a heck of a lot, but you really don't notice at a gig) and all the sudden my notes are ringing big and round, with plenty of growl in reserve when I dig in.

Bliss.

Why didn't I think of it before??

Don't be afraid to raise tha action a little more than you think, people... you might be suprised at how much difference it makes to your ears, but how little difference it makes to your hands!

If this post helps one person, it'll have been worth typing. [/quote]

+1

Most basses that I've played with really low action sound great in isolation but don't seem to have enough body in the tone to cut through in the way that I like to hear when I'm playing in a band setting..

Having said that, I think it totally depends on what music you're playing, what you like to hear when you're playing and also, the way that you play..I'm not sure there's a definitive 'right way' or 'wrong way' about it.

[Mikey R]

My bass collection also has 2.5mm on the E, 2.0mm on the G.

The bass is clank free, but that may well be due to the 7 year old strings.

The home brew birch bass has around 2mm on the B and 1.5mm on the G - but theres all kinds of buzzes waiting to be dressed out when I tidy up the frets.

Good thread - its got us all thinking objectively about action hight.

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='529114' date='Jun 30 2009, 09:36 PM']Interesting!

I suppose another variable to add in is where you pluck the string. I could honk away over the bridge pup on a J all day, and not clank or rattle once.

Over the neck pup would be a different kettle'o'fish altogether.[/quote]

I generally play with my thumb on the neck pickup and then run my thumb down the strings. I can get clank if I want it but don't usually unless the volume's a little low and I dig in too much to compensate.

I measure by holding a ruler alongside the string, depressing it and see how much it moves - easier than gauging the gap imo.

[4000]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='530106' date='Jul 1 2009, 11:19 PM']+1

Most basses that I've played with really low action sound great in isolation but don't seem to have enough body in the tone to cut through in the way that I like to hear when I'm playing in a band setting..

Having said that, I think it totally depends on what music you're playing, what you like to hear when you're playing and also, the way that you play..I'm not sure there's a definitive 'right way' or 'wrong way' about it.[/quote]

+1.

[ped]

+1 :0)

[rslaing]

I have put my crash helmet on in advance:-

it really doesn't matter because it's all about the notes..............

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='530993' date='Jul 2 2009, 07:51 PM']I have put my crash helmet on in advance:-

it really doesn't matter because it's all about the notes.............. [/quote]

'course it is, but it's nice to hear one's tastefully-selected notes in a manner which does them justice....

[rslaing]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='530998' date='Jul 2 2009, 07:55 PM']'course it is, but it's nice to hear one's tastefully-selected notes in a manner which does them justice....[/quote]

Nice sound on your vid.+1 mate

I went to see Bassdoc's band recently. Howard has a great sound and it punched through like I have never heard a bass penetrate, especially considering the wasn't DI'd and the rest of the band were.

He is from the "old school" and I know he reckons that the bigger the speakers and the cabinet, the better the sound. All about moving air apparently.
I think he plays with a pick as well, but I could be wrong, that might help to give him the extra punch.

I can't question his philosophy based on what I heard. So I wonder if that is more important than string height?

Howard :- do you have a low or high string height?

Edited July 2, 2009 by rslaing

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='531012' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:07 PM']Howard :- do you have a low or high string height? [/quote]

I can answer this...

Very high.

I gigged one of his 'ol Precisions a little while ago, and the gap between me going to fret a note, and it connecting to the fret, was about a week.

Sounded flippin' great tho.

[imaccer]

[quote name='chris_b' post='529061' date='Jun 30 2009, 09:39 PM']+1. That explains why I'm no good at tapping; you can drive a London bus under my strings!![/quote]
That explains the state of my fretboard

3mm at the 12th.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='531012' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:07 PM']Nice sound on your vid.+1 mate[/quote]
Thank you.

The notes punch with far more authority than they did before I raised the action, even though it's only 1mm or so. It's given me a bigger buzz(sic) than buying a new bass, amp or cabs... and it was free!

[Beedster]

Isn't it usually about here that one of the BC physicists posts that it actually makes no difference what height a string is set at

Anyone found that raising string height affects intonation? I only ask as, technically, if you raise the height, you're also increasing the distance between nut and saddle (or at least you could be depending on how much relief you have in your neck)?

Oh god, I'm sounding like a physicist

[Clarky]

[quote]Oh god, I'm sounding like a physicist [/quote]
Chris, stick to buying and selling Fender basses

[rslaing]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='531359' date='Jul 3 2009, 08:12 AM']Thank you.

The notes punch with far more authority than they did before I raised the action, even though it's only 1mm or so. It's given me a bigger buzz(sic) than buying a new bass, amp or cabs... and it was free![/quote]

You often read that a lot of the established players reckon the tone is "all in the fingers".

Maybe raising the strings has made you play in a different way and the punch is down to you now having to adjust your technique accordingly?

[Beedster]

BTW & IME ( ) the raising action thing is especially effective on fretless

[Beedster]

[quote name='Clarky' post='531390' date='Jul 3 2009, 09:00 AM']Chris, stick to buying and selling Fender basses [/quote]

Pots and Kettles dude

[Clarky]

[quote name='Beedster' post='531399' date='Jul 3 2009, 09:12 AM']Pots and Kettles dude [/quote]
Never said it was a bad thing, did I

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='531393' date='Jul 3 2009, 09:06 AM']You often read that a lot of the established players reckon the tone is "all in the fingers".

Maybe raising the strings has made you play in a different way and the punch is down to you now having to adjust your technique accordingly?[/quote]

I really just think the notes have more room to breathe, which in turn is a bit confidence inspiring when you're used to holding back because they 'bark' when you dig in.

I just wish I'd realised earlier...

[Legion]

To some degree I learnt the same lesson when I setup my double bass. I spent 3 goes making bridges that gave me the action I wanted at the same time as a decent sound that projected well without totally killing my left hand. I realised pretty quickly that the higher the action the better the tone, but it was getting a balance of tone and that jazzy buzz on the fingerboard that proved tough.

I guess it goes to show that regardless of all the tips and methods that pro's advocate you were probably on the right track already - with an action and playing style that suited you quite naturally. I also tried to "improve" my playing by being lighter and having a lower action, but for me expression often includes digging in, which you need to have room for...

Thanks for reminding me Micheal, I'm off to raise my action a bit!

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Beedster' post='531388' date='Jul 3 2009, 08:59 AM']Isn't it usually about here that one of the BC physicists posts that it actually makes no difference what height a string is set at [/quote]
I make no claim to be a physicist any more, but it's clear to me that there [i]will[/i] be a difference between the sounds of low action and medium action. Even if you're not aware of any fret buzz with a low action, the limited space between the vibrating string and the fret/fingerboard prevents the string from vibrating with an amplitude beyond a certain limit. As you raise the action, you increase the space available to the string, and the amplitude of vibration can increase, giving it more "room to breathe", as WoT says. It'll sound different. Full stop. Also, with a low action, even if you can't [i]hear[/i] any fret buzz, there might be minuscule amounts of contact between the string and, say, the next fret up from the one you're stopping. That'll damp the sound slightly or maybe introduce some different harmonic content. Maybe. I dunno.

[quote name='Beedster' post='531388' date='Jul 3 2009, 08:59 AM']Anyone found that raising string height affects intonation? I only ask as, technically, if you raise the height, you're also increasing the distance between nut and saddle (or at least you could be depending on how much relief you have in your neck)?[/quote]
Yes. It absolutely does. It slightly alters the length of the string, which in turn alters the tension the string has to be at to reach pitch. Not only that, but it also alters the distance you have to press the string down to fret a note, so the ratios of string-stopping lengths shift, and you have to adjust the saddles to compensate for all of these factors.

As I muse over this in my mind, it strikes me that if you had a [b]really extreme[/b] action, you'd need to have your frets moved to intonate properly. I might be able to knock up a few diagrams later when I'm not supposed to be working.

[Prosebass]

[quote name='Beedster' post='531388' date='Jul 3 2009, 08:59 AM']Isn't it usually about here that one of the BC physicists posts that it actually makes no difference what height a string is set at

Anyone found that raising string height affects intonation? I only ask as, technically, if you raise the height, you're also increasing the distance between nut and saddle (or at least you could be depending on how much relief you have in your neck)?

Oh god, I'm sounding like a physicist [/quote]

Nothing wrong with that Chris , I know a physicist and a jolly nice fellow he is too....

String height makes a big difference as to how hard you can "strike" the string and the harder you can strike it the more amplitude (movement) the string will have and the more you will notice the minor harmonics although that depends on where you are fretting the note and where your pick-ups are positioned also , so as you will appreciate there are a lot of variables.

Double basses are the best example of how string height alters the tone. I was playing Bassace's upright the other week and compared to a fretless bass it's action is huge. This is to give it that upright "thud and ring" and Bassace commented that if the action was too low it began to sound like a fretless bass and not an upright ?

Action is very personal and depends totally on how you play and what you want a bass to do for [b][u]YOU[/u][/b]

One thing to note though is that action at the 12th is meaningless if the bass is set-up wrong with regard to nut height / neck bow / bridge height. A correctly set-up bass in all these respects is essential, its no good changing one thing (ie saddle height) without redress to the nut and neck. And yes , the intonation is affected everytime you alter you action and again the amount is dependant on the other factors of the nut and neck bow. Indeed you may find that what a bass needs is the nut setting correctly and not the neck adjusting...

This is a very good website for setting up although he likes to set-up a bass with no neck relief....dead straight just the way I like them. [url="http://fretmd.com/category/tutorials/bass-guitar/"]Fret MD[/url]

Sadowski's are interesting in that the neck relief is machined into the fret-board with a 20 thou taper from the 12th fret to the heel. This eliminates the need for relief and is a feature I am trying to incorporate into my own builds.

Paul