String height / action - I've learned a valuable lesson!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='531508' date='Jul 3 2009, 11:21 AM']its no good changing one thing (ie saddle height) without redress to the nut and neck.[/quote]

Right on!

In my case, these bits had already been set up to prefection (By Howard the Bass Doc and Dave Wilson variously) for with the strings at the 'correct' height. I since tweaked the action to where I *thought* it should be which was, in my naivety... wrong!

Now I've raised the action, everything has fallen back into place.

[quote name='Prosebass' post='531508' date='Jul 3 2009, 11:21 AM']Sadowski's are interesting in that the neck relief is machined into the fret-board with a 20 thou taper from the 12th fret to the heel. This eliminates the need for relief and is a feature I am trying to incorporate into my own builds.[/quote]
Innaresting... didn't know that!

[fede162162]

higher action = better tone, once it was my idea too, but now I've radically changed my mind.

It's all about touch. My mind was changed by a great italian jazz performer whom I told the same thing:

"when I want to give a strong dynamic to the sound or just being crazy at y gig my bass play worse with a lower action".


He told me: Federico, I know you teach martial arts. When you do that, do you teach your pupils to hit strong? or to hit fast and precise in order to get the most effective result?
I said, exactly the second one.
He said: when you got expert it's kind of automatic to give fists and kicks fast,precise and bloody effective even in the worst situations. Thus you forget how to be brutal.
I said: you've got the point chief.

I spent days doing just one silly but effective exercise:
left hand laid on the fingerboard in rest, muting the strings.
Right hand. Put your fingers on a string. Prepare yourself to hit the strings. Focus on being as much fast as possible. You won't have strenght on your fingers because they'll be already laid on the strings. Focus focus focus and then hit! repeat,repeat,repeat.

Have you seen Kill Bill when Uma tries to escape from her cuffin? =D well same idea.

[rslaing]

There may be something in this - but why do players like Gary Willis, Hadrien Feraud, Bona, Wooten, Manring, Anthony Jackson have low actions on their basses? Surely if a higher string height was beneficial, the experts would use it?

Apparently Wooten's setup is a 1mm string height.

Surely it is down to the players technique?

There is a bit about it at [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-128732.html"]t***bass[/url]

Maybe a higher string height only makes a difference on certain types of bass.

Perhaps the "boutique" basses don't have the need for compensation.

???

EDIT:- having been intrigued by this thread, I have had a fair bit of searching about on the web. It appears that the higher action is preferable to the Fender players mainly. Maybe it's a "Fender thing". I'm not saying this is definitely the case - but it seems a lot of the Fender owners have their setup at 3 mm or more (as were apparently, Jaco's basses)

Edited July 3, 2009 by rslaing

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='531638' date='Jul 3 2009, 01:17 PM']There may be something in this - but why do players like Gary Willis, Hadrien Feraud, Bona, Wooten, Manring, Anthony Jackson have low actions on their basses? Surely if a higher string height was beneficial, the experts would use it?

Apparently Wooten's setup is a 1mm string height.

Surely it is down to the players technique?

There is a bit about it at [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-128732.html"]t***bass[/url][/quote]

It's undoubtedly down to technique... my technique seems to suit an action of about 3mm. I suppose I'm pretty average in that regard.

FWIW, I'd be suprised if the likes of Duck Dunn, John Paul Jones, Bob Glaub, John Sirratt, Rod Clements, Constance Redgrave, David Hayes, Glenn Worf etc. have an action of around 1mm. Surely if a lower string height was beneficial, these experts would use it?

[Prosebass]

[quote name='fede162162' post='531620' date='Jul 3 2009, 12:59 PM']higher action = better tone, once it was my idea too, but now I've radically changed my mind.

It's all about touch. My mind was changed by a great italian jazz performer whom I told the same thing:

"when I want to give a strong dynamic to the sound or just being crazy at y gig my bass play worse with a lower action".


He told me: Federico, I know you teach martial arts. When you do that, do you teach your pupils to hit strong? or to hit fast and precise in order to get the most effective result?
I said, exactly the second one.
He said: when you got expert it's kind of automatic to give fists and kicks fast,precise and bloody effective even in the worst situations. Thus you forget how to be brutal.
I said: you've got the point chief.

I spent days doing just one silly but effective exercise:
left hand laid on the fingerboard in rest, muting the strings.
Right hand. Put your fingers on a string. Prepare yourself to hit the strings. Focus on being as much fast as possible. You won't have strenght on your fingers because they'll be already laid on the strings. Focus focus focus and then hit! repeat,repeat,repeat.

Have you seen Kill Bill when Uma tries to escape from her cuffin? =D well same idea.[/quote]

Very truthful ...reminds me of my brother who does Tai Chi and attended a course run by an old Chinese Master. The guy was able to push people over without actually touching them ! my brother said he would never of believed it had he not seen it with his own eyes.... perfect projection of power, controlled and nothing to do with brute strength.
Its all in the fingers....

[rslaing]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='531650' date='Jul 3 2009, 01:26 PM']It's undoubtedly down to technique... my technique seems to suit an action of about 3mm. I suppose I'm pretty average in that regard.

FWIW, I'd be suprised if the likes of Duck Dunn, John Paul Jones, Bob Glaub, John Sirratt, Rod Clements, Constance Redgrave, David Hayes, Glenn Worf etc. have an action of around 1mm. Surely if a lower string height was beneficial, these experts would use it? [/quote]

DO these players all play Fender? Like I said in my edit (which you may not have seen before your last post), maybe higher action is a benefit to Fender only?

Just a thought - I'm not knocking Fender BTW!

[Prosebass]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='531587' date='Jul 3 2009, 12:24 PM']Innaresting... didn't know that![/quote]

I think he explains it in this interview which is well worth watching. [url="http://www.behindthenotes.com/index.php/Featured-Video/Features/Bass/Roger-Sadowsky/menu-id-17.html"]Roger Sadowski[/url]

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='531655' date='Jul 3 2009, 01:31 PM']DO these players all play Fender? Like I said in my edit (which you may not have seen before your last post), maybe higher action is a benefit to Fender only?

Just a thought - I'm not knocking Fender BTW![/quote]

Off the top'o'me head... mainly Fender, with a few Lakkies and Musicmanses mixed in.

Could well be!

[fede162162]

I'm presuming we're speaking about good basses with a well/leveled fretboard.

There are basses with which you have to deal with bitter frets buzz when you get low with the action. Still, technique has the biggest part: yet before technique, just "where" do you play makes a big difference

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='fede162162' post='531662' date='Jul 3 2009, 01:36 PM']I'm presuming we're speaking about good basses with a well/leveled fretboard.[/quote]

We are...

[fede162162]

[quote name='rslaing' post='531655' date='Jul 3 2009, 01:31 PM']DO these players all play Fender? Like I said in my edit (which you may not have seen before your last post), maybe higher action is a benefit to Fender only?

Just a thought - I'm not knocking Fender BTW![/quote]

In italy a well known stereotype is : Fender play better off with med. action.

Still, I made my Fender jazz sing wonderfully with the lowest action obtainable. However, things get easier to mewhen I play basses with higher radius (flat fingerboard). Some Fender basses have a strongly rounded fingerboard, and this makes harder to find the right compromise between low action, straight neck, light but speed touch and having an effective sound.(and maybe this is one of the reasons why my main bass is not a jazz but not by Fender)

Edited July 3, 2009 by fede162162

[rslaing]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='531660' date='Jul 3 2009, 01:35 PM']I think he explains it in this interview which is well worth watching. [url="http://www.behindthenotes.com/index.php/Featured-Video/Features/Bass/Roger-Sadowsky/menu-id-17.html"]Roger Sadowski[/url][/quote]


That is a really interesting (but long!) interview.

It sure explains a lot of what we have been debating in this thread. And perhaps his explanation of the radius of the fretboard on Fenders (especially the older ones at 7") is the root of the necessity to raise the action?

Thanks for the education!

EDIT: One of my cheaper basses had a dead spot, which I assumed was part of the "you get what you pay for" problem.
I had a look at it after Sadowsky talked about dead spots, and sure enough, the fret isn't seated properly and that is causing the problem, not the material as I have always believed.

I would recommend any techie types to watch the video - it answers a lot of the common questions in the forum. Great stuff

Edited July 3, 2009 by rslaing

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='531680' date='Jul 3 2009, 01:59 PM']I would recommend any techie types to watch the video - it answers a lot of the common questions in the forum. Great stuff[/quote]
I can't get the bugger to play. I'll have to watch it at home...

[Beer of the Bass]

Isn't the medium action/Fender association more of a stylistic thing? i.e. a slightly higher action may suit the kind of playing styles that people tend to use those basses for? Of course, it's a massive generalisation, but there could be something in it!

[chris_b]

[quote name='rslaing' post='531638' date='Jul 3 2009, 01:17 PM']....There may be something in this - but why do players like Gary Willis, Hadrien Feraud, Bona, Wooten, Manring, Anthony Jackson have low actions on their basses? Surely if a higher string height was beneficial, the experts would use it?
Apparently Wooten's setup is a 1mm string height....[/quote]
Surely this is the difference between the guys who rock and the guys who twiddle?

[Clarky]

I can't see that a string height of just 1mm would allow sufficient space for the string to vibrate freely - surely you could only get away with that if you played with very lightest of touches? Anyone hitting the string even medium-hard with a pick or digging in with their fingers would just end up with a buzzing, clacking mess

[4000]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='531508' date='Jul 3 2009, 11:21 AM']Nothing wrong with that Chris , I know a physicist and a jolly nice fellow he is too....

String height makes a big difference as to how hard you can "strike" the string and the harder you can strike it the more amplitude (movement) the string will have and the more you will notice the minor harmonics although that depends on where you are fretting the note and where your pick-ups are positioned also , so as you will appreciate there are a lot of variables.

Action is very personal and depends totally on how you play and what you want a bass to do for [b][u]YOU[/u][/b]

One thing to note though is that action at the 12th is meaningless if the bass is set-up wrong with regard to nut height / neck bow / bridge height. A correctly set-up bass in all these respects is essential, its no good changing one thing (ie saddle height) without redress to the nut and neck. And yes , the intonation is affected everytime you alter you action and again the amount is dependant on the other factors of the nut and neck bow. Indeed you may find that what a bass needs is the nut setting correctly and not the neck adjusting...


Paul[/quote]

+1

[4000]

[quote name='chris_b' post='531882' date='Jul 3 2009, 06:01 PM']Surely this is the difference between the guys who rock and the guys who twiddle?[/quote]

Ah, but I try and do both...

FWIW, I play with a pick most of the time (even more so now with nerve problems in my arms) but I play very, very lightly. I actually play lighter with a pick than many guitarists I know, so I have absolutely no need to have high action. As for digging in, I can do that, but it's all relative, and my basses are generally set up to accommodate that.

Assuming the board/frets are optimum, everything depends on how you strike the strings; JPJ for instance hits the bass fairly hard so would need a higher action. Entwistle played very lightly and had an incredibly low action. Strangest is Flea, who seems to play fairly hard but used to have an action of 1mm. Go figure, as they say in the US.

Edited July 3, 2009 by 4000

[rslaing]

[quote name='chris_b' post='531882' date='Jul 3 2009, 06:01 PM']Surely this is the difference between the guys who rock and the guys who twiddle?[/quote]

Probably - but the guys who "twiddle" are in the 21st century.

But I don't want to be controversial

Edited July 3, 2009 by rslaing

[rslaing]

[quote name='Clarky' post='531891' date='Jul 3 2009, 06:09 PM']I can't see that a string height of just 1mm would allow sufficient space for the string to vibrate freely - surely you could only get away with that if you played with very lightest of touches? Anyone hitting the string even medium-hard with a pick or digging in with their fingers would just end up with a buzzing, clacking mess[/quote]

It doesn't seem to be a problem for Wooten.

[lee4]

I've found that a medium to high action stops me playing fast,and sounding sh*te as a result.Perhaps string height affects your playing style and your playing style affects your string height.
If the action of your choice works for you then you have nothing to worry about.
Anyway,low action is for jazz playing string tapping above the 12th fret stunt-bass maniacs!

[4000]

[quote name='Clarky' post='531891' date='Jul 3 2009, 06:09 PM']I can't see that a string height of just 1mm would allow sufficient space for the string to vibrate freely - surely you could only get away with that if you played with very lightest of touches? Anyone hitting the string even medium-hard with a pick or digging in with their fingers would just end up with a buzzing, clacking mess[/quote]

I think you answered your own question i.e. it works if you play with the lightest of touches, which many do. With a low action I can get the same effect as someone with higher action digging in but by playing lighter. Best of all worlds. Of course I may not get as big, fat and round tone as someone with high action, but that's not really what I'm after (for me the twang's the thang!), and as Eddie Van Halen says, why make it difficult for yourself? BTW, check out my comment re Flea; an extremely low action worked for him and he seems to dig in.

Edited July 3, 2009 by 4000

[fede162162]

2 principle of Dynamic: force = mass x acceleration

[skankdelvar]

My 2p - may not just be to do with 'space to vibrate'.

* Raising the action on a Fender bridge will effectively increase the break angle over the saddle. This definitely has an effect on tone - e.g. if you experiment with changing the height of a gibbo stop tailpiece while leaving the bridge at the same height it makes a pronounced difference.

* When you jacked the action up, did you leave the p'ups at the same height as before - thus increasing the distance between p'up and string? I've found that moving p'ups away from the string can add a bit of 'sparkle'.

[lonestar]

I find that Fender set up specs work well for me on both my Fender Jazz and Peavey TL5, although the action on this will go a fair bit lower and still no buzzes.
Another related tip that I picked up was in a Gary Willis book oor another self-help book for bassisists.
If you fret a string and reduce your finger pressure slightly until the string starts to buzz and then press until it just plays cleanly with a good setup you'd be surprised how little pressure you need. Get used to playing like this. Makes for a lighter touch and a lot less hand fatigue. Also fret right over the fret on bass.