String height / action - I've learned a valuable lesson!

[Prosebass]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='532219' date='Jul 4 2009, 02:11 AM']My 2p - may not just be to do with 'space to vibrate'.

* Raising the action on a Fender bridge will effectively increase the break angle over the saddle. This definitely has an effect on tone - e.g. if you experiment with changing the height of a gibbo stop tailpiece while leaving the bridge at the same height it makes a pronounced difference.

* When you jacked the action up, did you leave the p'ups at the same height as before - thus increasing the distance between p'up and string? I've found that moving p'ups away from the string can add a bit of 'sparkle'.[/quote]

Break-over angle is important at both the bridge and nut, the nut especially and even more so with heavy gauge strings as they can have a hump if the angle is too steep and that can cause intonation problems.

The second point is another interesting one. The string to pup distance is very important with regard to the damping effect that the pup magnet exerts on the string. An easy way to see just how much an effect this has is to loosen your strings and watch them cling to the pup.
If the strings are too close to the pup they will be dampened and not allowed to vibrate freely, this can be an advantage if you are after a percussive sound but not good if you want an open ringing tone. Conversely have the strings too far away and as well as low output the pickup will not detect the minor nuances of the string vibration. Again this has variations depending on magnet strength, distance, string gauge, whether the strings are nylon wound etc etc...
Your strings have a big influence especially gauge and also another big one that often gets missed is neck rigidity.
With so many variables it is no wonder that 2 so called identical basses can sound very different.
Even taking all this into account a lot of the tone with a bass still comes from your fingers....whenever I finish a bass and demo it to the Mrs its no wonder she says "they all sound the same to me when you play them" its in the fingers...

[SteveO]

Hmmmm. I've always known that my action was a little on the high side, but never bothered to measure it. TBH i've never been that fussed about fine tuning my bases... as long as the intonation is fine and there is no fretbuzz than I'm good to go. However after reading through this thread I think I'll drop one of them to 3millish to see how much of a diference it makes. Currently the Yamm is set at 6mm, P1 is at 7mm and P2(main bass) is at 11mm!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='532219' date='Jul 4 2009, 02:11 AM']My 2p - may not just be to do with 'space to vibrate'.

* Raising the action on a Fender bridge will effectively increase the break angle over the saddle. This definitely has an effect on tone - e.g. if you experiment with changing the height of a gibbo stop tailpiece while leaving the bridge at the same height it makes a pronounced difference.

* When you jacked the action up, did you leave the p'ups at the same height as before - thus increasing the distance between p'up and string? I've found that moving p'ups away from the string can add a bit of 'sparkle'.[/quote]

Well, this might be a factor. By far the most noticeable change, though, is that - acoustically - the strings used to rattle on the end of the board, and now they ring freely.

As for the pickups, mine are set very low anyway.

[rmorris]

[quote name='fede162162' post='531620' date='Jul 3 2009, 12:59 PM']higher action = better tone, once it was my idea too, but now I've radically changed my mind.

It's all about touch. My mind was changed by a great italian jazz performer whom I told the same thing:

"when I want to give a strong dynamic to the sound or just being crazy at y gig my bass play worse with a lower action".


He told me: Federico, I know you teach martial arts. When you do that, do you teach your pupils to hit strong? or to hit fast and precise in order to get the most effective result?
I said, exactly the second one.
He said: when you got expert it's kind of automatic to give fists and kicks fast,precise and bloody effective even in the worst situations. Thus you forget how to be brutal.
I said: you've got the point chief.

I spent days doing just one silly but effective exercise:
left hand laid on the fingerboard in rest, muting the strings.
Right hand. Put your fingers on a string. Prepare yourself to hit the strings. Focus on being as much fast as possible. You won't have strenght on your fingers because they'll be already laid on the strings. Focus focus focus and then hit! repeat,repeat,repeat.

Have you seen Kill Bill when Uma tries to escape from her cuffin? =D well same idea.[/quote]

that sounds like good advice / attitude in terms of not 'wasting' energy/movement unnecessarily.
But you can't avoid the fact that, all other things being equal, a lower action allows less string excursion before fret buzz sets in and so the dynamic range of 'clean' playing is reduced.
Of course this may not be a bad thing in the case that you may otherwise require a compressor to get the sound wanted.
And a certain level of excursion is generally required to get a balanced tone from the note / attack although that's very sound dependent.

I believe Jamerson had a high action and flatwounds and wanted no fret click / buzz noise.
Horses for courses.

[rslaing]

[quote name='rmorris' post='532607' date='Jul 4 2009, 08:00 PM']But you can't avoid the fact that, all other things being equal, a lower action allows less string excursion before fret buzz sets in and so the dynamic range of 'clean' playing is reduced.[/quote]

Not really. Play with a softer touch, turn your amp up, and adjust your right hand technique (if you are right handed of course).

[quote]And a certain level of excursion is generally required to get a balanced tone from the note / attack although that's very sound dependent.[/quote]

The sound produced from the "attack" is not down to the amount of force applied. If you can play in a semi-staccato manner by having a good enough technique between your fretting and plucking hand, you can get a very effective tone. Watch the players who have a pronounced tone - they all play near the bridge to get the punchy sound that cuts through the rest of the band. The string excursion is reduced the closer you play to the bridge - you also get more control and less "noise".

[quote]I believe Jamerson had a high action and flatwounds and wanted no fret click / buzz noise.[/quote]

Jamerson was an ex double bass jazz player, and really didn't care about his bass setup. Most basses at the time had poor setups, I know, I played a few. And most bass guitarists also doubled on double bass, so a high action on a guitar did not trouble them. Indeed, a lot of the players I knew at the time actually set their bass guitars up with as high an action as possible so that the switch over from double bass was not so dramatic.

And in the last 40 years since he was binned by most of the studios because he wouldn't modernize his sound and style, and started his fall into obscurity, bass guitars and amplification have improved dramatically. So why not take advantage of the improvements?

If anyone would care to watch the Sadowsky video that was kindly introduced in the earlier thread, the problems that are encountered and the solutions to those problems are well covered (if you have an hour to spare).

As I suggested, all of the renowned players with good technique and specialist basses seem to have very low actions on their instruments.

The Fender players seem to have a higher action - and perhaps it is necessary for an instrument that has not (in the case of a precision or a jazz) been fundamentally changed for 50 years and is needed because of a steep radius on the neck, an average scale length and low break angle at the nut and bridge.

Anyway, does it really matter? The owner of an instrument that he likes is always going to justify it's "superiority" - until he finds something better.

The really important matter is the notes the player gets out of it, and that he can produce the notes with an economy of effort.

Anything else can be sorted out either in the studio, or by a good sound engineer in a live situation.

I have rarely heard any player, in a live situation, sound like he did on the album anyway.

Edited July 4, 2009 by rslaing

[rmorris]

QUOTE (rmorris @ Jul 4 2009, 08:00 PM)
But you can't avoid the fact that, all other things being equal, a lower action allows less string excursion before fret buzz sets in and so the dynamic range of 'clean' playing is reduced.


Not really. Play with a softer touch, turn your amp up, and adjust your right hand technique (if you are right handed of course).

[i]No real argument with the technique advice if that's what you like. I tend to favour not hitting the strings too hard and biasing toward playing near the bridge myself.
But I did state " all other things being equal " - in which case what I say holds true. If you accept there's a minimum string excursion ( whatever it is ) that you're going to have for a note then the lower the maximum excursion the smaller the difference between the quietest and loudest notes.
And that gives you a smaller 'dynamic range'.
I'm not saying it's a problem - but it is a fact and simple mechanical common sense / engineering. [/i]


QUOTE
And a certain level of excursion is generally required to get a balanced tone from the note / attack although that's very sound dependent.


The sound produced from the "attack" is not down to the amount of force applied. If you can play in a semi-staccato manner by having a good enough technique between your fretting and plucking hand, you can get a very effective tone. Watch the players who have a pronounced tone - they all play near the bridge to get the punchy sound that cuts through the rest of the band. The string excursion is reduced the closer you play to the bridge - you also get more control and less "noise".

[i]well it's down to ( amongst other bass variables ) the plucking ( or whatever ) position and the excursion.
I'm not simply saying that the bigger the strike the better the attack - but there can be a problem with players who just don't hit the string hard enough to get a well defined attack / note. Like I said - I tend to bias toward plucking toward the bridge for the reasons you outline. But sometimes the sound you want can be better obtained by adjusting that toward the neck.
I'd add that I tend to see more players hitting / striking too hard imho when it'd be better to be controlled at the playing end rather than making a mess of the sound or relying on the sound processing. [/i]




QUOTE
I believe Jamerson had a high action and flatwounds and wanted no fret click / buzz noise.


Jamerson was an ex double bass jazz player, and really didn't care about his bass setup. Most basses at the time had poor setups, I know, I played a few. And most bass guitarists also doubled on double bass, so a high action on a guitar did not trouble them. Indeed, a lot of the players I knew at the time actually set their bass guitars up with as high an action as possible so that the switch over from double bass was not so dramatic.

And in the last 40 years since he was binned by most of the studios because he wouldn't modernize his sound and style, and started his fall into obscurity, bass guitars and amplification have improved dramatically. So why not take advantage of the improvements?

[i]yeah. I didn't expand on that. I suppose my point was just to point that out as it seems relevant given the esteem in which he is held. I wasn't advocating his approach particularly. But I think his setup possibly had more to do with getting a clean sound rather than just not being bothered.
But it's certainly unfortunate that he appeared, as I understand it, to become beligerent wrt sound / style. I'm happy to be corrected here, but I believe part of the issue was a reluctance to change strings. Regardless of tone, at some point they just aren't going to tune / intonate properly which is going to lose you favour especially as bass lines become more upfront as with the 'Philadelphia' sound etc.

You can't argue with the improvement ( and availability ) of bass gear. Totally in favour of using that. [/i]


If anyone would care to watch the Sadowsky video that was kindly introduced in the earlier thread, the problems that are encountered and the solutions to those problems are well covered (if you have an hour to spare).

[i]I'll try and catch up with that when I can. But it reminded me of an interesting 'round table' discussion in Bass Player mag some years ago with various makers. I think Sadowsky nmay have been one, plus Pedulla + Tobias + others. If I stuck a PostIt note on it I may be able to find it ( too many magazines :-)[/i]

As I suggested, all of the renowned players with good technique and specialist basses seem to have very low actions on their instruments.

[i]I take the point although 'renowned players' is something of a value judgement. It's also a bit of a 'chicken and egg' situation since having a low action requires a certain technique.[/i]

The Fender players seem to have a higher action - and perhaps it is necessary for an instrument that has not (in the case of a precision or a jazz) been fundamentally changed for 50 years and is needed because of a steep radius on the neck, an average scale length and low break angle at the nut and bridge.

[i]Well - yeah. It's all down to the mechanics / geometry at the end of the day. I prefer a flatter radius myself although a steeper radius just 'feels right' sometimes. I do think, however, that you have to accept that 34" scale is a good compromise between tension etc and ergonomics. I'm assuming a 'proper' 4 string bass of course ;-)[/i]

Anyway, does it really matter?

[i]Well it's good if people are able to make an informed choice - which I hope is rather the point of forums like this[/i]

[Lfalex v1.1]

[b]Anyway, does it really matter?[/b]

[b][i]Well it's good if people are able to make an informed choice - which I hope is rather the point of forums like this[/i][/b]

A possible response to both of these (perfectly valid) points is to;

[i]Measure[/i] your current set-up meticulously.

[b]EXPERIMENT[/b] like a mad professor

Make notes / take measurements as you go to determine what alterations and variables affect what aspects of tone/feel/playability.

Revert back to your original set-up (as described by the first set of measurements) if you want or need to.
I think that what I'm driving at is that experience can be a good teacher in this endeavour.
Any changes you make are semi-permanent and can be undone with relative ease, provide that you are careful.

During the course of typing this, I've come to realise that it would be of use to formulate a consistent set of measurements to describe "SET-UP"

This might include (and it's not an all inclusive list by any means)

Pick-up height / angles
Break angle at nut/saddle for each string
Saddle heights
Neck relief & String heights at various points along the neck - 12th fret, last fret etc.

and so on...

[The Bass Doc]

[quote name='rslaing' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:07 PM' post='531012

Howard :- do you have a low or high string height?
[/quote]

Sorry to be late replying - I've been on hols.

My action has been described as one where 'a basketball player wearing a top hat could limbo dance underneath the strings' - I guess that means high.

H.

[lonestar]

One other viewpoint that I picked up from my old g**tar teacher who was also a top notch luthier was that rather than spend hour fiddling to get the " perfect" set up for you is to adapt your technique and playing to suit the instrument's action and characteristics.

[velvetkevorkian]

That seems counter-productive- surely you would be limiting your playing in some ways, unless you have a variety of basses with differing setups? I've always set my basses up to suit me, (and as a result don't really like playing many other people's basses) but I like to think when I play it sounds like me, instead of sounding like the bass, since I'm not limited by the characteristics of the instrument.

[ped]

Problem for me is that because my action is so low, smooth and fast, and the bass is so responsive to every touch, when I play another bass which pretty much always has a higher setup, I sound awful. I feel like my hands are numb or something! I guess I am crap at playing any other bass than my own!!

Quite interesting to note how different people play though - I play REALLY lightly and my friend Chris really digs in. It sounds great, too - but we are useless on each other's basses!!

I can't get this sound without my action - light trebly click with smooth deep defined bass, badly played: [url="http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/85432/USB%203/Canti%27s%20Wrap.mp3"]http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/85432/US...%27s%20Wrap.mp3[/url]

Cheers
ped

[Waldo]

[quote name='ped' post='532908' date='Jul 5 2009, 12:34 PM']Problem for me is that because my action is so low, smooth and fast, and the bass is so responsive to every touch, when I play another bass which pretty much always has a higher setup, I sound awful. I feel like my hands are numb or something! I guess I am crap at playing any other bass than my own!!

Quite interesting to note how different people play though - I play REALLY lightly and my friend Chris really digs in. It sounds great, too - but we are useless on each other's basses!!

I can't get this sound without my action - light trebly click with smooth deep defined bass, badly played: [url="http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/85432/USB%203/Canti%27s%20Wrap.mp3"]http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/85432/US...%27s%20Wrap.mp3[/url]

Cheers
ped[/quote]

That's what I loved about your old Bacchus. It's the only bass I've ever had that I could play really lightly and still get the same tone that you get when you dig in. I'm generally quite a heavy player so it was really nice.

Why oh why didn't they make a 4 string version?

[ped]

Yeah that was a beaut. It's all about the neck relief in my book. Get that as flat as you can and tickle the bass! I have only found this possible on a couple of basses - The Vigier, the Marleaux and the Bacchus, because the fretwork was so good.

[ped]

...And I think they may have done a 36" scale 4 string version? Try mailing Bacchus - PM me if you can't find the details as I have the blokes direct address.

[4000]

Just out of interest, has anyone had their bass Plek'd? If so, has it made much difference?

[Waldo]

[quote name='4000' post='533042' date='Jul 5 2009, 02:35 PM']Just out of interest, has anyone had their bass Plek'd? If so, has it made much difference?[/quote]

I don't even know what that is

[BigRedX]

[url="http://www.plek.com/en_US/home/"]Plek System[/url]

[Waldo]

So if I've understood the site properly, it's a machine that sets up your guitar?

Don't think I could fit that in my room tbh

Edited July 5, 2009 by Waldo

[Silent Fly]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='531660' date='Jul 3 2009, 01:35 PM']I think he explains it in this interview which is well worth watching. [url="http://www.behindthenotes.com/index.php/Featured-Video/Features/Bass/Roger-Sadowsky/menu-id-17.html"]Roger Sadowski[/url][/quote]

Thanks Prosebass.

A really great interview.

SF

[rmorris]

[quote name='lonestar' post='532863' date='Jul 5 2009, 11:25 AM']One other viewpoint that I picked up from my old g**tar teacher who was also a top notch luthier was that rather than spend hour fiddling to get the " perfect" set up for you is to adapt your technique and playing to suit the instrument's action and characteristics.[/quote]

I've heard of people doing that for practice / strengthening purposes. But it seems wrong as a playing solution to make life more difficult for yourself and limit your options.
And also it sounds odd coming from a 'top notch' luthier who could, presumably, set up the instrument as required.

[lonestar]

[quote name='rmorris' post='536355' date='Jul 9 2009, 12:28 PM']I've heard of people doing that for practice / strengthening purposes. But it seems wrong as a playing solution to make life more difficult for yourself and limit your options.
And also it sounds odd coming from a 'top notch' luthier who could, presumably, set up the instrument as required.[/quote]

He made this point after setting up a problematic Strat with a fairly high but perfectly playable action which ultimately suited the type of material that I was playing in a blues band at the time. It was just right for this guitar and the style of bendy stuff that I was playing once I got used to it.

[rmorris]

[quote name='lonestar' post='536381' date='Jul 9 2009, 12:50 PM']He made this point after setting up a problematic Strat with a fairly high but perfectly playable action which ultimately suited the type of material that I was playing in a blues band at the time. It was just right for this guitar and the style of bendy stuff that I was playing once I got used to it.[/quote]

right. I get it. But that seems to me like the setup was right for what / how you were playing anyway as you say. I'm thinking that you probably do need a higher action for the bendy stuff - taking into account neck radius etc.
Along similar lines I read that Clapton preferred a highish nut.

Edited July 9, 2009 by rmorris

[Happy Jack]

Just finished watching that Sadowsky interview (thanks Paul) and it's fascinating stuff BUT right at the end he casually mentions that for EQ purposes the smiley-face is the only way to go and the frowny-face just makes your bass sound muddy.

Kinell, I'd just got used to the idea (widely propagated here on BassChat) that the smiley-face is the devil's spawn and to be avoided at all costs, while the frowny-face is your friend in a live situation.

Now BEFORE the usual suspects say "Use your ears", I'll quickly point out that I can't be on-stage next to my rig [b][i]and [/i][/b]standing at the back of the pub at the same time.

What to do, what to do ...

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='536594' date='Jul 9 2009, 05:00 PM']Now BEFORE the usual suspects say "Use your ears", I'll quickly point out that I can't be on-stage next to my rig [b][i]and [/i][/b]standing at the back of the pub at the same time.

What to do, what to do ...[/quote]
Looper pedal. Get the band to jam out a little section they can loop, and then you can set the pedal looping your line with them while you wander around and tweak your sound for the best compromise between on-stage and back-of-the-pub awesomeness. Hell, with a looper pedal you can soundcheck everyone from the back of the room.

[velvetkevorkian]

You mean the bar? Good idea!