Boutique Basses

[tauzero]

[quote name='Tait' post='534929' date='Jul 7 2009, 05:25 PM']personally i think no bass can possibly be worth 3 grand, others obviously do since they spend 3 grand on a bass. if they didnt think it was worth it, they wouldnt buy it, as thats what "worth" means.[/quote]
Back in 1987, I was trying out effects pedals and got handed a Warwick Thumb to use. It was two or three times the price of a new Precision, the sort of price I could never understand anyone paying until I actually played it and I had to have it. You may encounter that in your life, you may not.

[tauzero]

[quote name='andy67' post='535465' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:08 AM']What would make a £10,000 instrument worth more than a £1000 instrument? considering tonally these two players sound similar and are both highly thought of and sought after - put the names in if you know who they are - just what makes or what are you getting more of in the higher cost bass?[/quote]
Each of them presumably owns the bass that they want to own and isn't forced to use something they don't want to. Each of them is therefore content and will therefore play to their best capability (unless they're playing the blues, of course, because you have to be as miserable as f*** to play the blues - it's the law).

[urb]

[quote name='andy67' post='535465' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:08 AM']These threads always pose great questions and give some great opinions.

What would make a £10,000 instrument worth more than a £1000 instrument? considering tonally these two players sound similar and are both highly thought of and sought after - put the names in if you know who they are - just what makes or what are you getting more of in the higher cost bass?

andy[/quote]

In short better quality materials equal better sound... just like fresh top grade ingredients make a tastier meal - and the skill to combine various woods/elements via a top end design and hand tooling skills of the highest order - it all depends on how much YOU value this person's skill. I reached a point after playing for 24 years that I really wanted to play basses that feel 100% right for ME, not some off the shelf plank that is designed for a mass market - that may well be made to a very high standard but isn't built the way I want it. I'm very lucky to own three basses who've been made with extreme skill, love and attention to detail and the resulting playing experience is just one of the best, most enjoyable things in life.

[skipper]

As far as i can see, if someone wants a fancy pants bass thats fine with me, we all have a choice on what to spend our own money on, but for [u]some[/u] of these guys their music becomes all about the gear and the true heart and soul of the music gets a bit diluted.

[andy67]

[quote name='urb' post='535583' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:17 PM']In short better quality materials equal better sound... just like fresh top grade ingredients make a tastier meal - and the skill to combine various woods/elements via a top end design and hand tooling skills of the highest order - it all depends on how much YOU value this person's skill. I reached a point after playing for 24 years that I really wanted to play basses that feel 100% right for ME, not some off the shelf plank that is designed for a mass market - that may well be made to a very high standard but isn't built the way I want it. I'm very lucky to own three basses who've been made with extreme skill, love and attention to detail and the resulting playing experience is just one of the best, most enjoyable things in life.[/quote]


Totally see that, but why the huge difference?

materials aside the cost of 4 - 10 times the difference is just not excusable in my view.

andy

ps Dood, yours is the only boutique bass that has ever appealed to me - I'll away and talk to the priest!

[Tait]

[quote name='4000' post='535360' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:49 AM']The core of many of these types of discussions seems to be "I don't feel that way about something so why should someone else?", but why should we all feel the same?[/quote]

have i once said that? i've been trying to remind you all the way through this discussion that i think the exact opposite of that, that my opinions don't matter unless its me buying the bass. here are some quotes from me this thread -

[quote name='Tait' post='531271' date='Jul 3 2009, 12:01 AM']really it doesnt matter what i think, what you think, what anyone thinks except the person buying the bass. if they think the extra money is worth the extra quality, then thats fine by me. i don't think i could ever spend much more than £2000 on a boutique bass though, when i can get a perfectly nice shuker for less.[/quote]
[quote name='Tait' post='531286' date='Jul 3 2009, 12:27 AM']btw, i'm not having a go at people with custom basses, i play a custom bass (cost me £990), i'm just saying that IMO, it depends on how much it costs as to whether its worth it, and i don't think any £3000 bass will ever be worth that much.[/quote]
[quote name='Tait' post='531665' date='Jul 3 2009, 01:39 PM']i'm not saying that you'd have to be stupid to go for the boutique bass, if you think its worth that extra 2 grand then thats fine, but i just don't think i could go for the boutique bass if theres a perfectly good bass for 2 grand less, when i think of all the things i could spend the 2 grand on. i hope that makes sense, i think i may have rambled a bit there.[/quote]

so i'm sorry as if i've come across as saying "you're wrong, i'm right, you shouldn't spend that much on a bass" but thats not what i've been trying to sound like.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Tait

[OldGit]

[quote name='tauzero' post='535555' date='Jul 8 2009, 11:48 AM']Each of them presumably owns the bass that they want to own and isn't forced to use something they don't want to. Each of them is therefore content and will therefore play to their best capability (unless they're playing the blues, of course, because you have to be as miserable as f*** to play the blues - it's the law).[/quote]

Blues bass on a 6 string thumb? Yeah I can undertsand that
[url="http://www.oliselectricblues.co.uk/fredy_hollis_gear.html"]http://www.oliselectricblues.co.uk/fredy_hollis_gear.html[/url]

[urb]

[quote name='andy67' post='535593' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:25 PM']Totally see that, but why the huge difference?

materials aside the cost of 4 - 10 times the difference is just not excusable in my view.

andy

ps Dood, yours is the only boutique bass that has ever appealed to me - I'll away and talk to the priest! [/quote]

Well it's that old chestnut of supply and demand that also affects the price... hence the big hoo ha over Fodera basses and the fact that the waiting list is three years and up and even the most basic design of their basses - i.e. a Wooten Monarch with a bolt on neck and very plain looks, will set you back £4K. You can obviously get basses made to a very high standard all over the place now, so it boils down to whether you perceive all the time and money involved in owning one is worth it - I know some people who do and that's absolutely fine. I also know that Dave Swift (Jools Holland's bassist) has been waiting about 4 years for his Anthony Jackson Fodera and he's a big name player...

I'll also add that - to restate my original point - that after years of trying dozens of different types of bass, looking around at all the different manufacturers and luthiers and playing a great off the peg Warwick Thumb for 18 years I had a VERY good idea of what I wanted from my custom basses - I feel like I've now achieved that. Paying - in my view - a reasonable price for this is like paying for anything of quality in life, be it a coffee, sandwich, car, TV, computer, whatever - these are instruments that are built to last a lifetime, that actually improve with age and the thousands of hours of hugely enjoyable music making they allow is priceless.

I think that's more than 'excusable'

Mike

[andy67]

[quote name='urb' post='535650' date='Jul 8 2009, 01:15 PM']Well it's that old chestnut of supply and demand that also affects the price... hence the big hoo ha over Fodera basses and the fact that the waiting list is three years and up and even the most basic design of their basses - i.e. a Wooten Monarch with a bolt on neck and very plain looks, will set you back £4K. You can obviously get basses made to a very high standard all over the place now, so it boils down to whether you perceive all the time and money involved in owning one is worth it - I know some people who do and that's absolutely fine. I also know that Dave Swift (Jools Holland's bassist) has been waiting about 4 years for his Anthony Jackson Fodera and he's a big name player...

I'll also add that - to restate my original point - that after years of trying dozens of different types of bass, looking around at all the different manufacturers and luthiers and playing a great off the peg Warwick Thumb for 18 years I had a VERY good idea of what I wanted from my custom basses - I feel like I've now achieved that. Paying - in my view - a reasonable price for this is like paying for anything of quality in life, be it a coffee, sandwich, car, TV, computer, whatever - these are instruments that are built to last a lifetime, that actually improve with age and the thousands of hours of hugely enjoyable music making they allow is priceless.

I think that's more than 'excusable'

Mike[/quote]

yep! I agree with that!

But then again I wouldn't necessarily class a custom made instrument boutique? Definitely would like a custom made bass to my spec! checking all things out Shuker would be the way to go for me.

My thoughts were Fender and Fodera as in the players being Marcus Miller and Victor Wooten respectively.

It would seem to me that some companies, of whom have a brand name, appear to just put a price on a bass.. whereas some are real about their pricing policy! Take for example a Shuker against a Fodera in terms of quality, production, manufacture and the love there can be little difference in end product except pricing.

Andy

[BigRedX]

I would expect that a fair proportion of the cost of a Fodera goes towards the rent of their workshop in Brooklyn. I doubt Jon Shuker who's in Derbyshire pays anything like the same amount!

An individually hand-craft instrument has an unbelievable number of man hours that go into it's construction from selecting the woods all the way through to finishing and set up, not to mention the after-market customer support your going to get with an instrument like that. Luthiers need to earn a living too, I would suspect that few in this country earn more than £10/hour from their custom bass orders.

[rslaing]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='535895' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:09 PM']An individually hand-craft instrument has an unbelievable number of man hours that go into it's construction from selecting the woods all the way through to finishing and set up, not to mention the after-market customer support your going to get with an instrument like that. Luthiers need to earn a living too, I would suspect that few in this country earn more than £10/hour from their custom bass orders.[/quote]

I've seen that figure before, and for £10 an hour plus materials, the high end stuff is worth every penny.

And if you are fortunate to pick the right one, you won't lose money on it either.

Edited July 8, 2009 by rslaing

[GreeneKing]

Are Custom basses worth it?

Worth what I ask? If anyone makes a custom bass how do they price it? If you think that they all total the price of the material and the hours taken to construct plus a reasonable percentage profit I think you'll be mistaken. There's a deal of hype and bullshit involved.

£3000 is oft quoted as a sort of benchmark in this thread. Well I presently own 3, or maybe 4 if you include my Ric 4001CS and I'd say yes, they're all worth it but the assumption that the more you pay the more you get doesn't hold true.

So bottom of the pile price wise would be my "Maroosh't'chick" (Can't spell it for real) Jazz at about 1,000 Euros new. I's happily equate it's quality at Sadowsky levels, having owner a Metro and a US Lakland. Top of the list, excluding the CS would be the Overwater Progress Deluxe III with a present price for new of £2,395. It's a very fine bass indeed. However my ACG Harlot (see avatar) blows them away in terms of materials, construction, tone and playability and comes in very much lower than the Overwater.

If anyone doesn't believe me you're welcome to try it out at a bass bash near you.

I'd struggle to get a new HH Ray for the price of the ACG and that's madness. I've laid hands on some high priced basses and wouldn't swap with the Harlot even if I didn't feel such loyalty to Alan for his work.

If I do bang on a bit I'm not apologising

[Pete Academy]

I reiterate what I said when I started this thread. I was playing a USA Tobias Classic 5, exotic tonewoods, Bartolinis etc. Great sound. After 15 years hard gigging it was pretty f##ked, so I looked around for a replacement. I couldn't justify a few grand for the same thing, so I looked at something from the Far East. The spec was similar - nice wood, same pickups. I bought it, and it didn't cut it on stage. I lost money.

I now have a Roscoe SKB5. I did some initial research and liked what I read. Mark at Bass Direct was extremely helpful and patient. I eventually settled on ordering a custom model. However, when I went down to Music Live to meet Mark and place the order, I spotted one on the stand which I fell for. I love it, and it sounds amazing. The band members noticed the difference from the Tobias on stage.

I know Jaco used a stock Jazz, Marcus uses his 70's jazz, blah, blah, but a hand-built bass with beautiful woods is IMO justifies every single penny.

Because you're worth it.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='535931' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:04 PM']Are Custom basses worth it?

Worth what I ask? If anyone makes a custom bass how do they price it? If you think that they all total the price of the material and the hours taken to construct plus a reasonable percentage profit I think you'll be mistaken. There's a deal of hype and bullshit involved.

£3000 is oft quoted as a sort of benchmark in this thread. Well I presently own 3, or maybe 4 if you include my Ric 4001CS and I'd say yes, they're all worth it but the assumption that the more you pay the more you get doesn't hold true.

So bottom of the pile price wise would be my "Maroosh't'chick" (Can't spell it for real) Jazz at about 1,000 Euros new. I's happily equate it's quality at Sadowsky levels, having owner a Metro and a US Lakland. Top of the list, excluding the CS would be the Overwater Progress Deluxe III with a present price for new of £2,395. It's a very fine bass indeed. However my ACG Harlot (see avatar) blows them away in terms of materials, construction, tone and playability and comes in very much lower than the Overwater.

If anyone doesn't believe me you're welcome to try it out at a bass bash near you.

I'd struggle to get a new HH Ray for the price of the ACG and that's madness. I've laid hands on some high priced basses and wouldn't swap with the Harlot even if I didn't feel such loyalty to Alan for his work.

If I do bang on a bit I'm not apologising [/quote]I think Mr Cringean totally under charges for his basses, I've played Wals, Statii, Jaydees, top of the range Fenders, Warwicks, etc but Alans basses are very special and priced to sell.

[GreeneKing]

I think it's a bit of Alan under charging while he starts his business rolling and a lot of other luthiers (not all) massively overcharging as is the norm in a luxury goods market.

[4000]

[quote name='Tait' post='535600' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:27 PM']have i once said that? i've been trying to remind you all the way through this discussion that i think the exact opposite of that, that my opinions don't matter unless its me buying the bass. here are some quotes from me this thread -





so i'm sorry as if i've come across as saying "you're wrong, i'm right, you shouldn't spend that much on a bass" but thats not what i've been trying to sound like.[/quote]

No, you've missed my point. It can be a question as well, as in "I don't understand why someone else would feel like that, explain it to me", but the end result is the same. It's simply about understanding that you may not understand someone else's reasoning. If you understand that principle, you don't need to ask the question in the first place. In some ways it's unexplainable other than something's worth it if you think its is, which has already been stated many times. Some non-bass related examples, not necessarily aimed at you:

Nobody needs to go to a restaurant for a meal; it's perfectly possible to make nice-tasting, nourishing food at home. However, many people like going out for a meal. Usually the chef is a better cook, but it's not always just about the food; it's also about the broader experience. It's nice to do. Does it cost more than eating at home? Almost always. Is it more nutritious? Not necessarily. Does it taste better? Hopefully, although everyone has different tastes. Now some will be happy at the local bistro (heck, some will be happy with MacDonalds), and some will only be happy with Heston Blumenthal. Regardless, if you enjoy it more, it's worth paying for. If you're happy eating at home or MacDonalds, fine. It does the same job essentially, but life hopefully isn't just about doing the same job. It's also about aesthetics, atmosphere, and other such intangibles which hopefully enrich our lives.

Why do I buy Haagen Daz ice-cream pretty much exclusively? Because it's my favourite. Does it cost more than most? Hell yeah, considerably more, but I'd pay twice that if I had to, because for me, nothing else comes close. If you're happy with Asda's own, great, you're saving money. Conversely my favourite red wine is Aldi's Baron St Jean, at £2-odd a pop. I've tried stuff that costs 10 times that and I don't like it as much, so it definitely works both ways.

Why do I buy Adidas Classic trainers? Sure they're comfortable, but there are many other brands out there just as comfortable. There may be some even more so. But I like them best. I like their history, I like their associations, and ultimately I love the look, which to me is far beyond that of any other trainer. If every other trainer in the world cost £20 and they cost £200 I'd still buy them instead assuming I had the money, simply because I wouldn't want to wear anything else. Many people I know don't get them at all. Do I care? Not a bit.

I know people who couldn't be happier than caravanning in the UK. They fail to understand why anyone would want to go abroad for a holiday. That's fine. In some ways I envy them, but I can guarantee if all I had to look forward to every year was a weeks caravanning I'd throw myself off the nearest cliff.

Back to basses, but away from boutiques; many people say Rickenbackers aren't worth the money; they're not versatile, they're idiosyncratic, they look weird. For less money you can get a (insert bass x) which does a much better job. But I wouldn't personally want to pay that money for bass x, because I don't like them as much. I like Rickenbackers, so that's what I'd spend my money on even if they cost more. I like that they're idiosyncratic, I like how they look, I love how they sound, regardless of if someone else thinks they're a one trick pony. It's not just the brand, it's not some sort of weird snobbery, I just like them better. If someone else prefers something else, fine. I'm not going to ask why. It's simply because they have different tastes than me, end of story.

I'll stop now, because I'm even boring myself. Medic!

Edited July 8, 2009 by 4000

[4000]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='535954' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:42 PM']I think it's a bit of Alan under charging while he starts his business rolling and a lot of other luthiers (not all) massively overcharging as is the norm in a luxury goods market.[/quote]

The first point is doubtless true (Sei were the same). I suspect Alan doesn't pay as much in rent as Fodera though, or any of the big-city-based luthiers. Please correct me if I'm wrong Alan, and I'll buy you a pint in October.

[urb]

[quote name='4000' post='535968' date='Jul 8 2009, 08:01 PM']The first point is doubtless true (Sei were the same). I suspect Alan doesn't pay as much in rent as Fodera though, or any of the big-city-based luthiers. Please correct me if I'm wrong Alan, and I'll buy you a pint in October. [/quote]

Re Fodera's rent, I believe the term is 'eye wateringly high'... and when I interviewed Vinnie two years ago for BGM he said storing and aging his incredible wood stocks is often the equivalent of putting $15,000 on a shelf and leaving it there for three or four years... and then paying rent for the privilege, that's just one of the reasons they charge the prices they do. And to be blunt, because they can.

M

[OldGit]

[tauzero]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='535950' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:33 PM']I think Mr Cringean totally under charges for his basses,[/quote]
Shutupshutupshutup, I fancy one and I want to be able to afford it...

[Mikey R]

Heres another point -

Say, you commission your dream bass and it takes 12 months to arrive. You put a lot of time and effort getting the spec right, talking to the luthier and building up a good relationship. It cost you all your pocket money.

Ten years on, are you going to be thinking about how much pocket money it cost? Probably not. Are you sill going to be enjoying playing it? Most likely.

P.S. Ten years on, do you still have your equally expensive plasma telly? Thought not.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Mikey R

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Mikey R' post='536616' date='Jul 9 2009, 05:27 PM']Heres another point -

Say, you commission your dream bass and it takes 12 months to arrive. You put a lot of time and effort getting the spec right, talking to the luthier and building up a good relationship. It cost you all your pocket money.

Ten years on, are you going to be thinking about how much pocket money it cost? Probably not. Are you sill going to be enjoying playing it? Most likely.

P.S. Ten years on, do you still have your equally expensive plasma telly? Thought not. [/quote]

Agreed, same with a normal car. Will depreciate and turn to nothing basically!

Basses are much better things to spend money on.

In the UK....who are the best boutique builders of the tradional vontage instruments?

I know USA has a lot, and Alleva/high end Sadowsky are up there as my first choice, but Id like to know about UK builders.

[andy67]

one thing I will add...boutique equipment gets sold here with great regularity and at a hell of a loss!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='536629' date='Jul 9 2009, 05:39 PM']Agreed, same with a normal car. Will depreciate and turn to nothing basically!

Basses are much better things to spend money on.

In the UK....who are the best boutique builders of the tradional vontage instruments?

I know USA has a lot, and Alleva/high end Sadowsky are up there as my first choice, but Id like to know about UK builders.[/quote]

Martin Petersen ( Sei ) is as good as any work that I have seen... superb attention to detail and craft..



The only thing I would be thinking about if I commisioned a bass, would be how would it sound as that is a big variable, IMV..what with PUPS, circuitry, woods etc.. bolt-on, neck thru... etc etc
You may have too much choice in this regard..

The build quality of the above luthier is just not a factor, IME.

[4000]

As Martin himself has said, you never really know what an instrument is going to sound like until it's built.