Bass Solo accompaniment

[bassace]

Reminds me of the old joke, which I'll quote very badly, about the married couple who hadn't spoken to each other for the past five years. The went to Relate and in order to break the impasse the counsellor wheeled in a double bass and played a solo. People always talk over a solo.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='bassace' post='531368' date='Jul 3 2009, 08:27 AM']Reminds me of the old joke, which I'll quote very badly, about the married couple who hadn't spoken to each other for the past five years. The went to Relate and in order to break the impasse the counsellor wheeled in a double bass and played a solo. People always talk over a solo.[/quote]

If I'm in the audience I always start a new and very loud conversation over the bass solo, if I can.

[wulf]

The two things I find trickiest when it comes to the bass solo are:

a) I've been concentrating on holding together the foundation of the song. Switching to something more melodic can be tricky.

With the group I've played with most, the tendency is for everyone else to drop out, so I'm left exposed, trying to maintain a foundation, soar lyrically and remember where I am in the form!

Quite often I end up playing something similar to what I would normally do at the start of each phrase but letting myself stretch out at the end. It's not as unfettered as I would like but manages to keep things together. Of course, the inevitable truth is that the whole process is much easier on songs that you know inside out and have spent time practising solos both with and without accompaniment. As you build up a vocabulary that way, it becomes easier to adapt that on the fly to less familiar songs. Other instrumentalists probably find soloing easier simply because they spend much more time doing it.

Wulf

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='endorka' post='531076' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:03 PM']Depending on the situation, I'll go unamplified on double bass whenever I get the chance. It's ideal for playing jazz as background music or in a restaurant, for example, where setting the volumes of all instruments to the unamplified double bass will more or less guarantee that you won't be too loud for people to converse with each other.

Playing the double bass acoustically has a set of charms all of its own, but you are right, it is incredibly easy for almost any other instrument to trash your solo if they are inexperienced.

Jennifer[/quote]
One little band I play with is a sort of gypsy jazz outfit - violin / accordion / guitar / bass.
Hot Club mixed with Eastern European mainly - plus light classics / latin american etc

Although we do sometimes play amplified, its mostly acoustic at dinners / receptions etc and the occasional formal concert.

Jennifer, you are right. There is something rather special about playing acoustically, and I think the bass especially comes into its own in this situation - after all it IS an acoustic instrument historically.
You can get such a rich warm sound without an amp. Don't get me wrong - I also love playing with an amp. But acoustically, in the right situation, there is nothing better !

Some years ago I was involved with a well known classical guitar virtuoso featuring a wonderful piece by (frenchman) Claude Bolling - his Concerto for Classical Guitar and Jazz Trio.
For the first few performances, we amplified guitar, bass and piano. It was OK, but I felt the guitar especially suffered from this. I suggested we try performing without amps. The other guys were unsure - it's quite a delicate piece in places, and they were worried about getting the balance right.
However, I persisted and eventually persuaded them to try it.
What a difference ! Without amps it meant the drummer had to play very delicately in places so overall the dynamic range was greater. When you don't rely on amps you tend to play the loud bits louder and the quiet bits quieter, thus using all your skills to produce a better sound and better balance.

The Major

[Rich]

[quote name='wulf' post='531421' date='Jul 3 2009, 09:52 AM']The two things I find trickiest when it comes to the bass solo are:

a) I've been concentrating on holding together the foundation of the song. Switching to something more melodic can be tricky.

With the group I've played with most, the tendency is for everyone else to drop out, so I'm left exposed, trying to maintain a foundation, soar lyrically and remember where I am in the form![/quote]
The two things I find trickiest when it comes to the bass solo are:

a] Coming up with something that doesn't sound like the bass is being dropped down a stairwell.
b] see a] above.

I really cannot solo to what I consider a passable standard, and hate doing so. I love listening to good solos, as long as they are melodic -- I take my hat off unreservedly to anyone who can play a whistle-able tune as their solo. One of my favourites is Gary Willis' solo on 'Canine' by Tribal Tech. It always makes me smile.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='531073' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:55 PM']All the hotels, country houses etc and the various Jazz venues that have existed over the years the Manchester jazz festival and the more concert type gigs in places like the RNCM and Band on the Wall
I played a lot with Les Chisnall, Dave Edge, Roy Powell, Mike Walker Iain Dixon Andy Schofield, Andy Scott Richard Wetherall, Steve Brown John Ellis, Steve Gilbert, Dave Hassall, Vinnie Parker, Les Bolger, Andy Pryor.... the list goes on and on. I did quite a few of the rhythm section and visiting soloist gigs. For 10 yrs I have worked with a musical comedy act called the Casablanca Steps which in the last five years has had London management and works in London, the south east and abroad a lot so I moved to just outside London in '05 to be closer to work and airports, and as is the way of things have ended up doing quite a bit of freelancing work down here eg a fortnight ago I did 2 days in Germany with the virtuoso violinist David Garrett which was depping for a very fine bass player called Tom Mason.
I'm guessing you play with the beeb or Halle (I know Maurice Stemp and Bill Kerr quite well as I used to be on the MU committee when it was in Canal St)

Nice to meet you properly Major.

Jake[/quote]
What a small world it is Jake ! I know all these guys (except Dave Edge). And I did a dep with Casablanca Steps in the 80's.
I was in a band with the wonderful Steve Gilbert from 1970-72 - we were very green then.
3 nights a week in a Mecca tho' taught us a lot. Then a summer season in Blackpool, US bases in Germany and then i moved on to a 5 nights a week Mecca in Leeds before getting my job at the Beeb.
Did you know Steve had to stop playing several years ago due to RSI ? I have heard he is just now getting back into a bit of playing.
I met Vinnie Parker when I was 18 playing my first gigs on BG. And I played with him just a few weeks ago - what a great yet modest pianist he is - one of our insung heroes in my book ! I occasionally depped with Tony Christie when Vinnie was his regular keys man.
Haven't seen Les Bolger for many a year - is he still around ? Last I heard of him he was teaching in L'pool.

Nice to converse with you too Jake.

The Major

[Soulfinger]

I think the key word here is musicianship. When the rest of the band view bass solos as a welcome excuse to take a nap there´s not much you can do about it.

In my former life as a drummer, I always found a way to support the soloist, no matter what instrument they were playing. For playing behind a bass solo you just have so play softly without losing the groove but that seems to be a lost art these days. Drummers really need to learn to play with brushes FFS! I had the reputation of being the quietest drummer in town and that got me lots of jobs. The bass players loved me.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='wulf' post='531421' date='Jul 3 2009, 09:52 AM']The two things I find trickiest when it comes to the bass solo are:

a) I've been concentrating on holding together the foundation of the song. Switching to something more melodic can be tricky.

With the group I've played with most, the tendency is for everyone else to drop out, so I'm left exposed, trying to maintain a foundation, soar lyrically and remember where I am in the form!

Quite often I end up playing something similar to what I would normally do at the start of each phrase but letting myself stretch out at the end. It's not as unfettered as I would like but manages to keep things together. Of course, the inevitable truth is that the whole process is much easier on songs that you know inside out and have spent time practising solos both with and without accompaniment. As you build up a vocabulary that way, it becomes easier to adapt that on the fly to less familiar songs. Other instrumentalists probably find soloing easier simply because they spend much more time doing it.

Wulf[/quote]
I suppose one of the reasons I started this thread is to encourage jazz bass players to DEMAND from their band, a good sensitive accompaniment to their solos.
From some of the replies we've had, its clear that many people believe that bass solos can be an embarrassment. Obviously it depends on who is playing bass - but with the right type of help from your fellow musos, even an average bass player can be made to sound good.
Wulf - maybe with your regular band you need to rehearse some ideas for bass accompaniment - just a few do's and dont's that you can suggest to the guys. Maybe something subtle and spacy from the guitar - just pointing to the sequence. A light hihat tick to keep it all together. Piano chords at the cadence points. A build towards the finish.

As I've said before - "The Bass is as entitled to a decent accompaniment as all the other players".

The Major

[Mike]

Very interesting! I've only started playing on the jazz scene in the last 6 months (normally I am a functions player) and I am developing my vocabulary as a soloist. It's taking time and a lot of effort but I'm getting there. With one of my regular jazz groups I got irritated whenever my solo came along and all the other instruments bar the drums drop out - with the drums doing that classic open hi-hat "taa taa-taa-taa, taa-tee-taa, taa-tee-taa" feel, if you get me. Frankly I felt I was probably making it drag enough as it was without the drums holding it back too! I like the guitar or piano to carry on comping - helps me play inside and around the changes more successfully. Interesting thread though!

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='Soulfinger' post='531536' date='Jul 3 2009, 11:41 AM']I think the key word here is musicianship. When the rest of the band view bass solos as a welcome excuse to take a nap there´s not much you can do about it.

In my former life as a drummer, I always found a way to support the soloist, no matter what instrument they were playing. For playing behind a bass solo you just have so play softly without losing the groove but that seems to be a lost art these days. Drummers really need to learn to play with brushes FFS! I had the reputation of being the quietest drummer in town and that got me lots of jobs. The bass players loved me. [/quote]
Well you [u]can[/u] do something about it - that's my whole point with this thread. As bass players we need to be more pro-active and tell our fellow musos what we expect from them. Don't let them take a nap ! Be more demanding! I know its hard for us because we bass players are naturally more withdrawn than most people, modest, easy going, more like wall-flowers, wouldn't say boo to a goose (I'm just trying to wind you all up !!).

Soulfinger - if you were the quietest drummer in town, I wish you had been in MY town !

The Major

[urb]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='530763' date='Jul 2 2009, 04:13 PM']Personally I don't really want to do more than a couple of solos per gig.[/quote]

Definitely... duo gigs with a pianist or guitarist (which I've done lots of in the past) can be really exhausting... walking bass for hours and a solo almost every tune, fun but quite intense, I'm much happier holding it down with one or two solos per gig, I am the bass player after all.

M

[Spoombung]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='531565' date='Jul 3 2009, 12:04 PM']Don't let them take a nap ! Be more demanding!

The Major[/quote]


What I find very strange among Jazzers is that they are often are utterly oblivious to a gigantic, embarrassing hole opening up when the bass solo starts. I can't help thinking that's because they don't actually communicate with each very well - they rarely sit down and discuss each others likes and dislikes - they try and rely on some sort of romantic idea of musical telepathy instead - hence so much of it sounds characterless or 'trad'. No one wants to tell their colleague they have body odour.

[wulf]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='531545' date='Jul 3 2009, 10:50 AM']Wulf - maybe with your regular band you need to rehearse some ideas for bass accompaniment - just a few do's and dont's that you can suggest to the guys. Maybe something subtle and spacy from the guitar - just pointing to the sequence. A light hihat tick to keep it all together. Piano chords at the cadence points. A build towards the finish.[/quote]
I've left that group behind anyway by moving from London to Oxford. I've got some new things going on here but nothing quite in the straight foward "real book" jazz line just yet.

Wulf

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='wulf' post='531807' date='Jul 3 2009, 04:17 PM']I've left that group behind anyway by moving from London to Oxford. I've got some new things going on here but nothing quite in the straight foward "real book" jazz line just yet.

Wulf[/quote]
Hi Wulf
I think the term you meant was "straight [u]ahead[/u]" jazz. It's a strange phrase I know, but most jazzers know what is meant by it. Sorry if I sound like a berating schoolteacher - not that there is anything wrong with being a schoolteacher ! I'm fast realising that you have to be very careful what you say around here !!

The Major

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='531525' date='Jul 3 2009, 11:31 AM']What a small world it is Jake ! I know all these guys (except Dave Edge). And I did a dep with Casablanca Steps in the 80's.
I was in a band with the wonderful Steve Gilbert from 1970-72 - we were very green then.
3 nights a week in a Mecca tho' taught us a lot. Then a summer season in Blackpool, US bases in Germany and then i moved on to a 5 nights a week Mecca in Leeds before getting my job at the Beeb.
Did you know Steve had to stop playing several years ago due to RSI ? I have heard he is just now getting back into a bit of playing.
I met Vinnie Parker when I was 18 playing my first gigs on BG. And I played with him just a few weeks ago - what a great yet modest pianist he is - one of our insung heroes in my book ! I occasionally depped with Tony Christie when Vinnie was his regular keys man.
Haven't seen Les Bolger for many a year - is he still around ? Last I heard of him he was teaching in L'pool.

Nice to converse with you too Jake.

The Major[/quote]

How does the joke go...?

It's a small world but I wouldn't want to hoover it...

Especially in the music world it is [i]very[/i] small.
I have had contact with Steve throughout his RSI problem and am pleased to say that I have gigged with him since he started again (one of the first bits of playing he did in fact) Steve is a very close and dear friend and as you know one of the finest drummers on the circuit. I make a point of seeing him on my frequent trips to Manchester and will be going for a pint with him in a couple of weeks when I'm up playing at the Tatton flower show.

I totally agree about Vinnie, a real gem of a player lovely ideas and great sense of the right harmony. And Les Bolger... yes still teaching in Liverpool.

Well I'm glad you've joined the ranks here Major your experience is being felt in a most useful way around here, I hope your regularity here remains.
Jake

[endorka]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='531497' date='Jul 3 2009, 11:13 AM']Jennifer, you are right. There is something rather special about playing acoustically, and I think the bass especially comes into its own in this situation - after all it IS an acoustic instrument historically.
You can get such a rich warm sound without an amp. Don't get me wrong - I also love playing with an amp. But acoustically, in the right situation, there is nothing better ![/quote]

Just back from doing such a gig - unamped double bass, sympathetic pianist, good sax player, good singer. No drummer. Nice :-)

Tomorrow morning it's an outdoors trad gig with no power, so everything acoustic. Sax/clarinet, guitar, drums, double bass. It's going to be hard work!

[quote]Some years ago I was involved with a well known classical guitar virtuoso featuring a wonderful piece by (frenchman) Claude Bolling - his Concerto for Classical Guitar and Jazz Trio.[/quote]

That sounds brilliant! I'd like to hear more Claude Bolling, last year I played "Baroque and Blue"- acoustically of course - and it is an impressive thing indeed.

Jennifer

[bassace]

[quote name='endorka' post='532193' date='Jul 4 2009, 12:54 AM']Tomorrow morning it's an outdoors trad gig with no power, so everything acoustic. Sax/clarinet, guitar, drums, double bass. It's going to be hard work!
Jennifer[/quote]

May be slightly easier than you think, Jennifer, because the bass seems to carry well outdoors. It's the clari player I have some sympathy with.

[endorka]

[quote name='bassace' post='532291' date='Jul 4 2009, 10:08 AM']May be slightly easier than you think, Jennifer, because the bass seems to carry well outdoors. It's the clari player I have some sympathy with.[/quote]

And you were right! It was a joy to play - the reed guy stayed on clarinet throughout the gig, the drummer playing only snare & hihat with brushes, and the balance of sound was perfect. One of the most enjoyable gigs I've played, great musicians, great sound, great music, appreciative audience. And they fed us too :-)

Jennifer

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='endorka' post='532538' date='Jul 4 2009, 05:33 PM']And you were right! It was a joy to play - the reed guy stayed on clarinet throughout the gig, the drummer playing only snare & hihat with brushes, and the balance of sound was perfect. One of the most enjoyable gigs I've played, great musicians, great sound, great music, appreciative audience. And they fed us too :-)

Jennifer[/quote]
Ah..... food on gigs ! That should make a good thread !!

The Major

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='531595' date='Jul 3 2009, 12:32 PM']What I find very strange among Jazzers is that they are often are utterly oblivious to a gigantic, embarrassing hole opening up when the bass solo starts. I can't help thinking that's because they don't actually communicate with each very well - they rarely sit down and discuss each others likes and dislikes - they try and rely on some sort of romantic idea of musical telepathy instead - hence so much of it sounds characterless or 'trad'. No one wants to tell their colleague they have body odour.[/quote]
Personally, I try to show respect to all other musicians from every genre, even if there style is not my preference. And if I do criticize something, or someone, I make sure I fully understand the background to their genre before doing so and I check all my facts first, and refrain from generalizations that are likely to inflame people who are passionate about their art.

The Major

[BassBus]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='531595' date='Jul 3 2009, 12:32 PM']- they rarely sit down and discuss each others likes and dislikes - they try and rely on some sort of romantic idea of musical telepathy instead -[/quote]
"Musical telepathy"? It's called listening. You should try it some time, it actually makes music fun.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='BassBus' post='533183' date='Jul 5 2009, 06:12 PM']"Musical telepathy"? It's called listening. You should try it some time, it actually makes music fun.[/quote]

Oh, you can't always rely on a listening. Talking first means you set some preferences (like [i]please[/i] keep playing when I play my bass solo)

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='endorka' post='532193' date='Jul 4 2009, 12:54 AM']That sounds brilliant! I'd like to hear more Claude Bolling, last year I played "Baroque and Blue"- acoustically of course - and it is an impressive thing indeed.

Jennifer[/quote]
Hi Jennifer
I don't know "Baroque and Blue". What's it scored for ?

The Major

[endorka]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='533551' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:37 AM']Hi Jennifer
I don't know "Baroque and Blue". What's it scored for ?[/quote]

Flute, piano, double bass, drums. You can hear the man himself playing it here;

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dVtLVSzESU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dVtLVSzESU[/url]

Jennifer

[Bilbo]

Interesting thread.

My own perspectives are that, unlike many other genres, your bass solo in a jazz setting shoudl be determined not only by your own muse but by the accompaniment you receive. If there is none, you have a relatively free reign (tempo/form can be a boundary but, depending on the setting, you have other options). There are 'industry standard' responses to the bass solo (off beat hi-hat, minimal chord movement etc) but these can be very tired and little more than a bland and cliched response by bored/uninspired/uninspiring musicians.

For me, the best bass solos take place when you have accompaniment that is, in some way, provocative. The solo should be a dialogue with the accompaniment and, if that accompaniment is interesting and challenging, you will find yourself reflecting that in your own contribution, playing a solo that is more musical and less 'showy'. I don't 'prefer' any particular style of accompaniment, I just ask that it is congruent with the piece being performed, responsive in terms of where we, as an ensemble, are taking it and utilises the fullest possible range of the ensemble's collective musicality. In jazz, it is very easy to get locked into a traditional head - solos -head routine with a fairly predictable be-bop orientated solo in swung triplets. It'll get you work, it'll get you applause and it'll get you paid but its a tiny part of the instruments/genres potential.

Your bandmates are like all groups with whom you have contact. Your familiarity is borne from experience. Sometimes you hit it off with someone from the first time you meet, others you learn to love as your musical relationship develops. I would avoid telling someone 'what I want' because that has the potential to stifle their contributions. What I don't want is ambivalent accompaniment or silence which is informed only by the need to take another swig of ale!

Re: acoustic playing. I agree that, in practice, it helps but, if this is the case, you need to have some conversations about why that is. You should be able to sound musical and sensitive plugged into a 1000 watt Marshall - its about playing with musicians not players. And as for bandleaders, some of them just aren't. They let the players 'do their own thing' with no real vision of what they are trying to achieve and fail to exert any influence. Loud insensitive drummers remain so because they are still booked - if they weren't, they would learn pretty quickly!