NancyJohnson Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I've been throwing together a Jazz style bass and as the existing body routs were kind of big, I bought a pair of Wilkinson MWM4C MusicMan clone pickups; the pickups came raw - no packaging or schamatics. A bit of honesty here too... don't actually know whether the pickups are active or passive (this only just dawned on me a few minutes ago); I paid until £25.00 the pair so I'm suspecting passive, which is fine. Everything on this build has been going quite smoothly until it came to actually getting some noise out of it! I'd like to run these is much the same configuration as a Jazz (V/V/T), but I can't find a schematic anywhere that will allow me to do this - I'm really not so worried about what the pickups can achieve when wired a certain way...I'm a straight rock player, so generally all the onboard bass controls are generally full on Anyhow, the pickups. They have four wires coming out of them coloured a (thick) black, yellow, red and white. The black and yellow wires are/were soldered together. I don't really understand the whole hot wire thing, so if anyone has a simple diagram that will help, or (if you're in a say thirty miles radius of Reading), I'll happily drive over and buy you a beer. Finally, I'm away now until the 13th. No PC so I can't post until I'm back. Thanks for any help P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 JHS distribute for Wilkinson so they may be able to help. You can get the Wilkinson EQ pots etc for £40 (see below), which if you speak to them they should be able to tell you if it'll work with your pups, they may even be persuaded to send you a scanned copy of the instructions... up to you then if you go your own way or purchase the kit. [url="http://www.jhs.co.uk/wilkinson.html#bass"]http://www.jhs.co.uk/wilkinson.html#bass[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Can I just bump this if anyone can help. Cheers to Dave for the Fender schematic - already had that one! Cheers P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Im pretty sure Black & yellow are the grounds for the coils. Red & white are the outputs. It doesnt matter if you reverse them as long as your consistent with both pickups. Follow the above diagram and substitute Black/Yellow for the black jazz pickup lead, and substutute Red/White for the white jazz pickup leads. That will give you paralel humbucking which is how MM basses are wired. If you want series wiring wich is much louder and heavier sounding then you need to check which wires are for which coil with a continuity tester. lets say coil 1 has black as ground and white as the output and coil 2 has yellow as ground and red as output. Youd solder the white and yellow together, the black to ground on the back of each pot and the red to the center lug of each pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 This is a little tricky. There don't seem to by any Wilkinson pickup wiring diagrams around anywhere ! Some trial and error might be required, unless you have a multimeter that you can use to determine how the pickup is to be wired. Given that the pickup is a MM clone then have a look at these two diagrams to see if they make sense first (ignore the actual wire colours on the pickup as these seem to be different - it's more about what the pickup is capable of). [url="http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=musicman_passive"]http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wirin...usicman_passive[/url] [url="http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=musicman_passive_2v_1t"]http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wirin...n_passive_2v_1t[/url] From these you can see that a single MM pickup can actually be split into two separate coils, which probably explains the extra wires. What you could try is to take the first diagram and combine that with the standard Jazz bass one [url="http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=std_jazz_bass"]http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wirin...c=std_jazz_bass[/url] If you have a multimeter measure the resistance between the black/yellow and red wire, then the black/yellow and white wire, then between the red and white wires. I would expect the resistance to be highest between the red and white wires (maybe twice as much as the other two combinations). If this is the case then there are two possible ways to wire the pickups with reference to the Standard Jazz Bass diagram 1. MM pickup coils in parallel The black/yellow combination on your pickup would be equivalent to the black (grounded) wire on the Jazz bass diagram and you would then join the red/white wires together to be equivalent to the white (hot) wire on the Jazz bass diagram. The rest of the wiring would be the same as on the Jazz bass diagram. 2. MM pickup coils in series Put insulation tape over the black/yellow join to cover any bare wires then leave this "floating". Wire up as the Standard Jazz bass diagram using the MM red wire as the Jazz bass white (hot) and the MM white as the Jazz bass black (ground). Make sure you wire both pickups the same way. The second combination should give a higher output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='BOD2' post='539423' date='Jul 13 2009, 04:06 PM']1. MM pickup coils in parallel The black/yellow combination on your pickup would be equivalent to the black (grounded) wire on the Jazz bass diagram and you would then join the red/white wires together to be equivalent to the white (hot) wire on the Jazz bass diagram. The rest of the wiring would be the same as on the Jazz bass diagram. 2. MM pickup coils in series Put insulation tape over the black/yellow join to cover any bare wires then leave this "floating". Wire up as the Standard Jazz bass diagram using the MM red wire as the Jazz bass white (hot) and the MM white as the Jazz bass black (ground). Make sure you wire both pickups the same way. The second combination should give a higher output.[/quote] Bod2, if blac & yellow are grounds then your instructions for series are incorrect as that would wire the pickup series but out of phase giving a weak scratchy sounding output. Red and white are rarely used as ground colours, their usually hot outputs so im assuming yellow and black are grounds. Edited July 13, 2009 by Spartacus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Cheers for the replies...soldering iron will be on in a couple of hours - I'm just back from Italy and haven't eaten anything in about 20 hours. Must get some food in me. P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 [quote name='Spartacus' post='539432' date='Jul 13 2009, 04:14 PM']Bod2, if blac & yellow are grounds then your instructions for series are incorrect as that would wire the pickup series but out of phase giving a weak scratchy sounding output. Red and white are rarely used as ground colours, their usually hot outputs so im assuming yellow and black are grounds.[/quote] Yes, I'd agree with that. It's just the fact that the black and yellow are already soldered together that had me wondering. That's why I suggested it would be useful to measure the resistance to see what's going on. If you think of two coils where the first coil is, say, red to black and the second coil is white to yellow, then soldering the black and yellow together would give a single continuous coil from red to white. Like I said - measure the resistance if possible otherwise it's trial and error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 I've soldered the black and yellow together and run the red and white wires as per the Jazz diagram that Dave posted. I have sound - better sound - but the output [of the bass] is very woolly, a bit distorted and somewhat farty...there's not a lot of output either. It's very quiet. Both pickups are working independently now, in as much as I can turn the volumes up and down. The tone control works, but only really goes from super-woolly to woolly. On the upside, the earthing is fine! Not a buzz or anything. I'll have to put this on the back burner for a day or two - busy over the next two nights. Any further suggestions appreciated! Best P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='NancyJohnson' post='539911' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:50 PM']I've soldered the black and yellow together and run the red and white wires as per the Jazz diagram that Dave posted.[/quote] Can I just ask did you solder the black/yellow and leave them floating or solder them anywhere? Did you solder red/white together? Exactrly which wires did you solder where? If you've got low output it suggests that you've shorted the outputs somewhere or have wired each pickup out-of-phase. You could really do with a continuty tester or cheap multimeter to check which wires belong to which coil before proceeding any further. Shoud cost you less than a fiver and its a very handy thing to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I think you need to get a hold of a multimeter and try to take some coil resistance readings to determine how the pickup is wired. I've had a look at a few other 4-wire MM-style pickups and there are quite a few possibilities and none of them use an "obvious" colour coding system. Basically two of the wires need to be soldered together and then the other two are "hot" and "ground", but the question is which two need to be soldered together ? With a meter and a crocodile clip you could clip various two wires together and measure the resitance across the other two until it starts to make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='BOD2' post='540133' date='Jul 14 2009, 11:00 AM']Basically two of the wires need to be soldered together and then the other two are "hot" and "ground", but the question is which two need to be soldered together ?[/quote] Thats for series wiring only. Two pairs need soldering together for paralel wiring. [quote]With a meter and a crocodile clip you could clip various two wires together and measure the resitance across the other two until it starts to make sense.[/quote] True but that wont determine the phase. The resistance isnt important, just needs to identify continuity across each pair to see which wires are attached to each coil then its trial and error to see which will wire it correctly in phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 OK, updates. First off, I've attached three photos, one of the plate, another of the bare cables from one of the pickups and finally the meter (that I loaned from work). Don't moan about my soldering skills! While it's messy, nothing is touching anything it shouldn't be. OK the readings. I did three readings with the meter set to the x100 ohm setting and recorded where the needle sat. The readings were: Cable colours/needle settings Red & White - 130 Black/Yellow & White - 80 Black/Yellow & Red - 80 In answer to another question, the black and yellow wires are pre-soldered to each other and were simply taped up and left to float. The red wire in both cases was soldered to the back of the pot, the white was soldered to the centre tab on the pot. Hopefully this means something! Thanks in advance... P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='NancyJohnson' post='540593' date='Jul 14 2009, 06:49 PM']Cable colours/needle settings Red & White - 130 Black/Yellow & White - 80 Black/Yellow & Red - 80[/quote] That doesnt say anything you wouldnt have expected, thats about 7k resistance per coil. it doesnt say anything about which wires relate to which coil and you need to make sure theyre connected in the right [b]phase[/b] or youll get low scratchy output as you describe wther you go for series or parallel. [quote]In answer to another question, the black and yellow wires are pre-soldered to each other and were simply taped up and left to float. The red wire in both cases was soldered to the back of the pot, the white was soldered to the centre tab on the pot. Hopefully this means something![/quote] I [b]think[/b] it means that the pickup was wired like OLP pickups where they use two volume pots to control each coil individually, with coils in parallel. It was soldered to be wired like a musicman pickup (in parallel) but Youve tried to wire it in series mode and i think have wired it out of phase as you say youve got low output. Lets go back to basics and take it slowly one step at a time. What you need to do is 1. desolder all the pickup connections for a start. 2. Use your meter on the resistance or continuity settings to see which cables relate to which coil as follows 3. Use a 100ohms setting and touch one probe to the black wire. Touch the other probe to the other wires until it reads about 80 (8k) and note down which wire shows about 8k when you measure across it and the black. The readings on other two wires should read open circuit. 4. When youve done that, report back OR IF YOU WANT TO SAVE SOME TIME CHECK IF THIS WORKS AS PARALLEL WIRING 1. Desolder the white and red leads from the pots. 2. Solder the black/yellow to the same point where you soldered the red in your pic 3. Solder the white/red together and solder that to the lug where you soldered the white in your pic How does that sound now? Edited July 14, 2009 by Spartacus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Spartacus' post='540608' date='Jul 14 2009, 07:05 PM']OR IF YOU WANT TO SAVE SOME TIME CHECK IF THIS WORKS AS PARALLEL WIRING 1. Desolder the white and red leads from the pots. 2. Solder the black/yellow to the same point where you soldered the red in your pic 3. Solder the white/red together and solder that to the lug where you soldered the white in your pic How does that sound now?[/quote] First off, let me just put on record that the information on this forum is priceless, so thank you for this. I've gone the route above...the output of the bass has increased significantly and dare I say it, it sounds quite lovely, but (always a [i]but[/i], eh?), the bass is pretty noisy; some buzzing/humming. In an attempt to troubleshoot, I de-soldered and re-soldered each pickup in turn and then the tone control and none of this has really had an effect. Tried bypassing the tone altogether, still humming. Checked the ground wire to the bridge (on and off) and it's still the same (I've never soldered to the bridge). **Edit** Well after I posted last night, I took another look - the issue with the noise may just have been something to do with simply being too close to the amp - by this I mean my other basses are just very quiet. If I move away from the amp, the buzzing pretty much disappears, which is fine. It might be down to the pots being a little old, too much soldering etc. I have some new pots around and may go the route of taking everything off at some stage and use new pots, but right now everything seems OK. I'll repost later today if I suspect there's any problems! Thanks for your help...much appreciated. Cheers P Edited July 15, 2009 by NancyJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) [quote name='NancyJohnson' post='540807' date='Jul 14 2009, 10:28 PM']First off, let me just put on record that the information on this forum is priceless, so thank you for this. I've gone the route above...the output of the bass has increased significantly and dare I say it, it sounds quite lovely, but (always a [i]but[/i], eh?), the bass is pretty noisy; some buzzing/humming.[/quote] Good news Looks like black/yellow are earths then and red/white are outputs. The pickups are humbucking now so its probbaly interferece induced in other wiring. Looking at your second pic above you could have two separate earth paths which could cause the buzzing if one of them isnt connected to ground. Looks like One path between the back of the pots and one path between the lugs. Try using your meter to test continuity between the back of the pots and the lugs where you've solered the black earth wires. If theres high resistance or no continuty then you need to solder a connection between the back of one pot and the earthed lug on the same pot. That could solve your interference problem. Edited July 15, 2009 by Spartacus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcrow Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 your set up looks ok whites are hot reds are earths and the soldered and taped leads make the pup series...so there is a phantom coil in there to humbuck?? not really familiar with these but they sound like stacked pups when used separately you shouldnt get any hum at all...and since you have used both whites they are in phase hope i am right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 [quote name='mrcrow' post='542391' date='Jul 16 2009, 04:37 PM']your set up looks ok whites are hot reds are earths and the soldered and taped leads make the pup series...so there is a phantom coil in there to humbuck?? not really familiar with these but they sound like stacked pups when used separately you shouldnt get any hum at all...and since you have used both whites they are in phase hope i am right[/quote] The standard MM type has two coils side by side and 4 wires. Some types have phantomn coils for silent operation of single coil modes but this one doesnt. There are two ways of wiring it. Parallel (pickups wired electricaly parallel, hots together, grounds together, and magnetically out of phase) or series (pickups wired with ones hot to the others ground and magnetically out of phase for cancellation) If white was hot and red was earth, and the yellow/black were taped then it would be series wired but electically out of phase giving low output. The OPs already tried that and it wasnt right. The hum is most likely because it looks like the earthing between the pot shells and the lugs isnt continuous. Sorry but youre confusing the issue here and stand a chance of confusing the OP as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 It sounds to me like Spartacus has correctly sorted out the pickup wiring. The hum (and it only seems to be when very close to the amp) could just be poor shielding of the body cavity or some other minor earthing problem. Good job Spartacus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcrow Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote name='Spartacus' post='542429' date='Jul 16 2009, 05:20 PM']The standard MM type has two coils side by side and 4 wires. Some types have phantomn coils for silent operation of single coil modes but this one doesnt. There are two ways of wiring it. Parallel (pickups wired electricaly parallel, hots together, grounds together, and magnetically out of phase) or series (pickups wired with ones hot to the others ground and magnetically out of phase for cancellation) If white was hot and red was earth, and the yellow/black were taped then it would be series wired but electically out of phase giving low output. The OPs already tried that and it wasnt right. The hum is most likely because it looks like the earthing between the pot shells and the lugs isnt continuous. Sorry but youre confusing the issue here and stand a chance of confusing the OP as well [/quote] sorry spartacus i was totally confused... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) OK my final post here. The pickups just don't seem to be doing what I want; it's way too quiet, so for now they're out and a pair of MIJ Jazz pickups (that came with the body) are in. Everything is as it should be...the output is nice, loud and duuurty. They don't look so pretty in those massive cavities, but they'll do for now. Maybe some day I'll try again. Steve (Spartacus), cheers for your help and the PMs...at least I've become a bit more adept with a soldering iron, if nothing else. Best P Edited July 17, 2009 by NancyJohnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughie Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) HI guys, Just to add to the confusion, I also had much trouble finding the Wilkinson MWM4C wiring codes - there are none. This particular Wilkinson pickup is a 4 wire humbucker and the 4 wire means you have a choice and can wire it various ways. MM Stingray pickups were hard wired 2 wire in parallel so no choice and just +ve (hot) and -ve (ground). Here my twopenneth worth .. ie what I determined with a volt meter. Neck coil .. Black is + (hot) positive & Red - (ground) negative Bridge coil.. White is + (hot) positive & Yellow - (ground) negative [u]SERIES[/u] (note: in series, electically has to be .. +ve to -ve to +ve to -ve etc ) - this as already stated in posts above gives you White as (hot) +ve Red as -ve (ground) Black & Yellow joined together (taped separately) End result is 2 wire, in series, +ve and -ve leads [u]PARALLEL[/u] (note: in parallel electically, all - ves have go together and all + ves have to go together) - this gives you White & Black joined as +ve (hot) Red & Yellow ground joined together as -ve (ground) End result is 2 wire, in parallel, +ve and -ve leads If you for example, want to have a switch to change between series & parallel or have 2 volumes like OLP / Fender Jazz or have a blend pot, then you can split the white & black as separate hot leads and there are others... Good luck .. Hughie Edited September 4, 2014 by hughie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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